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The Starks were never Theon's family


INCBlackbird

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This seems to be a major misconception in this fandom.



Theon lived with the Starks for 10 years and of course that means that there is a connection. He loved Robb and Robb loved him, and he probably had some casual "friendships" we haven't heard about because they were casual. But Ned was not a father to Theon, although he wanted him to be. Which is not to say that Ned should have, Theon was his hostage, he had to keep an emotional distance from him to be able to do his duty. Cat was not a mother to him and the stark kids (not counting Robb) were not in anyway his siblings. Not locking him up in a dungeon does not equal being his family. The Starks were pretty good to Theon but he was still their hostage under threat of death and as such he did not owe them anything. (whether or not he owed Robb is debateable in my opinion but ultimately I don't think chosing to fight for Robb was a choice at all for Theon, considering he'd be ruined. which is not to say that Robb didn't have a right to be angry or feel betrayed, of course he did. But we're looking at this from Theon's perspective, something rarely done in this fandom)



I'd also like to add that on the Iron islands there are other imporant people besides Theon's asshole father: Alannys, Asha, Dagmer (who was more of a father to Theon than Balon ever was)...


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I never got how a lot of people seem to generally have expected Theon to be loyal to the people who dragged him from his home and family as a child. Really the only thing he did that I hold against him is burning the two kids in place of Bran and Rickon to somehow save face. Attacking Torrhen's Square and sacking Winterfell and even capturing Bran and Rickon were all reasonable acts of war. If you want to be angry with anyone for the Ironborn attacking the North, it was Balon's boneheaded decision to do that, but that's another discussion topic altogether. I'm not sure where this concept that "if I kidnap you for ten years you should be completely loyal and dedicated to me and have no reason to be angered" came from except that he acted against the Starks who are unequivocally the "good guys" and thus "can do no wrong and all shall love them and any who oppose them must be in the wrong by default" kind of thing.


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Any decision Theon would make by the time of Clash of Kings would kill him inside a little bit, he was in a terrible spot right there, but him feeling undesired took the best of him and he tried to be great to feel the void he had, he stayed at winterfell trying to hold himself to a dream and payed HARD for that! He should be smarter.. but any side he choose would leave a bittersweet felling i think...


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burning the two kids was cold and evil, but wasn't diferent of how all nobles are when we put smallfolk in the conversation, Ned didn't care two s***s when Mycah the butchers boy died, neither didn't Catelyn cared about what a war against Tywin Lannister would do to the Riverlands smallfolk... Nobody cares about smallfolk and I absolutely despise those Lords who pretend they do... Well they don't really, only when is convenient.


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I never got the impression that the Fandom feels Theon was "family". Of course he was a hostage, and maybe he could have gotten a bit more from Ned. But I don't get the impression Ned gave anyone that sort of attention. But I think people's fault with Theon was that even though he didn't owe the Starks anything, he KNEW he was doing something stupid. Yet he did it anyway. Even at his lowest point he regrets not dying at Robb's side. That sounds like brotherhood to me.

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Well, that is one of the points of him hostage in WF:

1: Make sure Balon doesn't rise up against the crown again.

2: Raise Theon with his kids so they will be friends, so in the future when Theon became Lord of the Iron Islands there were good relations with the Starks.

He and Robb were friends, but i guess Theon was always a piece of shit so no surprises there.

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I'm not sure how you can make that assertion, when Theon himself is unable to decide.

AGOT, chapter 14:

"Lord Eddard is a second father to me," said Theon Greyjoy. "I do so swear."

Not is like a second father, but is a second father. Of course, this was in the early days, before everything went awry, but if Theon thought Ned was his second father, it follows that he thought of the Starks as his second family. Then, when Ned was captured, he declared his allegiance to the Starks, and believed his family owed the Starks a great debt for taking care of him for all those years. Theon believed his father would side with Robb and the Starks, because that is the decision he himself would make.

Even though it was not intended, sending Theon to Pyke was in my opinion the start of his psychological torture. The Iron Islands are a hard place, and the Greyjoys seem to be an especially hard family. Theon expected to be greeted as the long lost Prince, and instead he was treated as an inferior Greenlander, humiliated by his sister, openly mocked by his father. Then, his father gave him a choice between the Greyjoys and the Starks, in my opinion believing Theon would pick the Starks. Needing to prove himself to those he believed to be his people, Theon chose to abandon Robb and go raiding. Through everything that transpires from this point to the sack of Winterfell, Theon struggles with his loyalty to Pyke versus his loyalty to those he grew up with (Benfred Tallhart, Mikken, Bran and Rickon, etc.).

Then he becomes Reek, and early on, being Theon terrifies him. Once he returns to Winterfell, Theon starts to reclaim himself, he identifies Winterfell as the best home he ever knew, remembers wishing Ned would marry him to Sansa, and regrets not staying with Robb and dying at his side.

No, Theon was not a blood relation to the Starks, and no one is claiming that. But Theon wanted to be a Stark, and he was raised with the Starks as Jon Snow was. Family does not need to be defined by genetics. If Theon wants to believe the Starks are more his family than Balon and Asha, that's fine with me.

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This seems to be a major misconception in this fandom.

Theon lived with the Starks for 10 years and of course that means that there is a connection. He loved Robb and Robb loved him, and he probably had some casual "friendships" we haven't heard about because they were casual. But Ned was not a father to Theon, although he wanted him to be. Which is not to say that Ned should have, Theon was his hostage, he had to keep an emotional distance from him to be able to do his duty. Cat was not a mother to him and the stark kids (not counting Robb) were not in anyway his siblings. Not locking him up in a dungeon does not equal being his family. The Starks were pretty good to Theon but he was still their hostage under threat of death and as such he did not owe them anything. (whether or not he owed Robb is debateable in my opinion but ultimately I don't think chosing to fight for Robb was a choice at all for Theon, considering he'd be ruined. which is not to say that Robb didn't have a right to be angry or feel betrayed, of course he did. But we're looking at this from Theon's perspective, something rarely done in this fandom)

I'd also like to add that on the Iron islands there are other imporant people besides Theon's asshole father: Alannys, Asha, Dagmer (who was more of a father to Theon than Balon ever was)...

He lived with the Starks almost as long as he lived on the islands. He never was able to be a Stark, yet when he returned to Pyke it was driven home that he wasn't Ironborn either. The Starks taught him that Family was paramount and when given the ultimate choice he chose family, even going well beyond what he should have done to make a statement to his father, who has not seen him in almost a decade.

As a plot device, Theon's conflict is as big of a part of the story as anything else

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I don't think I've seen the fandom screaming that Theon was a part of the family. What I've seen is that Theon's story arc is about him finding his identity in this world. The fandom is saying he grew up in the North and was taught their values and traditions. This made him more Stark than Greyjoy. Theon comes to realize this too late when he attempts to over compensate to prove he is a Greyjoy.


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Wouldn't go so far to say Theon didn't owe Starks anything. Indeed, it wasn't he who created the situation he was taken as a hostages for, but neither did the Starks. That was a Balon-authored mess in which Ned Stark participated only as much as he was obliged by laws and conflict-resolving traditions. I mean, the entire hostage situation in effect saved Balon's head. Without that type of a safety clause, no king, not even forgiving-prone Robert, would let Balon live. Therefore, since Balon's child had to be taken as a hostage, Theon could do a lot worse than be sent to Winterfell. In fact, that was probably the best case scenario for him once Balon's rebellion was crushed. Considering how he was treated in WF (he obviously lacked no civil or military education, not to mention he was properly taken care of for all those years), it isn't a surprise he became attached to Starks, and especially to Robb.



Also, it is to be considered that because of his place in WF he had access to the information critical for any operation against the Starks, which he ended up using in ACOK - and, as I said, he wasn't in that position by his own will, obviously, but Starks also weren't responsible for the situation he ultimately used to deliver the fatal blow against their war efforts in ACOK.



With all that being said, he really wasn't their family. He didn't owe them his love. His choice to side with his biological family, however twisted that family may be, is understandable. Though, it'd also be understandable if he stayed loyal to Robb. Or, more precisely, he didn't have enough reasons to side with either family. But, he had to choose. Practically, once Balon Greyjoy decided to attack the Starks, Theon was put in front of a dreadful choice: he was to pick between two families, neither of which cared too much for him. There was no happy solution for him at that point. Of course, with the invasion of WF, he only made things worse for everyone, himself included. And the crimes he committed during his short reign in WF didn't win him any favors, either. But, on the other hand, he's most hated for two crimes he actually didn't commit: murder of Bran and Rickon, and razing of Winterfell. Once it is found out the former didn't happen and the latter is Ramsay's doing, Theon will probably be far less hated then he's now. Hard to imagine him respected again (as if he ever was), but he and the world both deserve the truth about what happened in WF to become common knowledge.


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Also the idea that Ned ever would have killed Theon is incredibly misguided, and Theon was just flat out wrong. He'd rather go to war than spill the blood of innocents as he has shown multiple times ala Dany/Targ children

Ned did care about Mycah, but he was already dead and he was far more concerned for his daughter's plight by this point. There's also nothing he could have done to save Mycah if he couldn't even save the wolf

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burning the two kids was cold and evil, but wasn't diferent of how all nobles are when we put smallfolk in the conversation, Ned didn't care two s***s when Mycah the butchers boy died, neither didn't Catelyn cared about what a war against Tywin Lannister would do to the Riverlands smallfolk... Nobody cares about smallfolk and I absolutely despise those Lords who pretend they do... Well they don't really, only when is convenient.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :agree: :agree: if you hadn't noticed, I agree...

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Eden put it best, he calls eddard a second father and the relationship with Robb is the most important, as we clearly see Theon felt he was family.

The Starks doesn't think of him as family.

And Theon felt he was good enough to be a Stark that's what he wanted but he knew he wasn't and could never be a Stark.

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The Starks doesn't think of him as family.

And Theon felt he was good enough to be a Stark that's what he wanted but he knew he wasn't and could never be a Stark.

Robb does and Bran seems to as well, but that's irrelevant as it's about how Theon feels about them. Even if Robb is the only one, he's the one Theon betrayed.

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burning the two kids was cold and evil, but wasn't diferent of how all nobles are when we put smallfolk in the conversation, Ned didn't care two s***s when Mycah the butchers boy died, neither didn't Catelyn cared about what a war against Tywin Lannister would do to the Riverlands smallfolk... Nobody cares about smallfolk and I absolutely despise those Lords who pretend they do... Well they don't really, only when is convenient.

Burning two kids is really not the same as not caring for innocent victims killed by someone else. By the way, based on what you say Ned didn't care for Mycah? He didn't do anything to punish those responsible for Mycah's death, but guess what, persons actually responsible for Mycah's death are Ned's queen and Ned's crown prince. Unless he wanted to start a war against IT, there was really nothing Ned could do - except console Arya and try to shame Sandor, both of which he did, though not to same success (because Sandor was as far from shame as ever). As for Cat, did she really have any reason to expect Tywin will send Gregor and his band of psychopaths to vandalize Riverlands?

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So what?



If his family is what he chose, he should have actually followed the orders his 'rightful' as well as 'chosen' liege and father gave him and not endanger the Ironborn agenda by doing his own thing for ego gratification.



On such terms, whom he ows what, he's wrong by all accounts.


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I'm not sure how you can make that assertion, when Theon himself is unable to decide.

AGOT, chapter 14:

Not is like a second father, but is a second father. Of course, this was in the early days, before everything went awry, but if Theon thought Ned was his second father, it follows that he thought of the Starks as his second family. Then, when Ned was captured, he declared his allegiance to the Starks, and believed his family owed the Starks a great debt for taking care of him for all those years. Theon believed his father would side with Robb and the Starks, because that is the decision he himself would make.

That quote is something Theon says when he's still in Winterfell, doing his best to please his captors in hopes they'll accept him. it's also him lying to himself, trying to make himself believe that Ned was indeed like a second father to him, because as I stated in the op, Theon wanted him to be. and all throughout this chapters Theon tells himself what he wants to "know", which is often pretty far from the truth. here's what Theon thinks about Ned:

"Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.”

“I am no Stark.” Lord Eddard saw to that.

“He [Dagmer] gave me more smiles than my father and Eddard Stark together.”

“Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine. I am a Greyjoy of Pyke, born to paint a kraken on my shield and sail the great salt sea.”

the point is that while Theon's with the Starks he tries to fit in the best he can because he WANTS TO be a Stark, but that never works out. Which is why he covers himself in Krakens because he's like "well, if I can't be a Stark, I don't care, in fact, look at me! i'm the most stereotypical greyjoy there is! That's right bitches, wait till I get home! than you'll see how I will be so accepted there and everyone will love me!" but in the maintime he's just lying to himself because he still wanted to be a Stark, he wanted to be a part of that sweet family where siblings didn't beat eachother up and fathers cared about their children. But anyway, I am getting off topic here... I'm tired so I ramble. here's what I wrote about Theon and Ned in my reread thread :

I definitly think that Theon wanted Ned to be a father to him. and maybe in certain moments it was possible to consider him one. I think Ned would have made it a point to teach Theon his moral code so in that sense Theon could think of him as a father. But Ned is very… let’s call it pragmatic. He’s all about being cold and rational and avoiding mixing his emotions with his duty. And I think he considered it his duty to do right by Theon and teach him what he is supposed to be taught and treat him how he should be treated. But rational Ned also kept his emotions in check, he knew he might have to kill Theon one day and couldn’t get attached, so Theon got no parental love from Ned, which is what he really wanted and what’s really important. There’s also the thing with the execusions because I think that it was Ned’s idea to treat Theon equally to his own children and that included teaching him how difficult it is to take another person’s life. But he also doesn’t seem to take Theon’s emotions into account in this. And tbh, I have a problem with Ned I think partly because of this (and it’s not about Theon it’s about Ned) because I think that Ned despite meaning well, expects everyone else to do the same thing he does. He expects Theon to also separate his emotions from his rational side. But Theon can’t do this, Theon is always lead by his emotions and they cloud his rational side. So when Theon goes to executions he’s not thinking that Ned has difficulty with cutting off a man’s head, he’s thinking that it might be him on the block next time. And I don’t think Ned can expect Theon to not think that way. either way I’m getting a little off topic here. The point is that Theon wanted Ned to be like a father to him (partially because he wanted to have a place to belong and partially because he wanted to get some love) and I think through the way Ned treated him (with respect but without emotion) Theon was very confused, he couldn’t hate him but he also didn’t get what he really wanted and Theon does with this relationship what he basically does with everything else, he tells himself depending on the situation he’s in either that Ned was horrible to him and he should hate him, or that Ned was like a father to him.

And I know a lot of people are going to disagree with this but I do think Theon has a form of Stockholm syndrome for Ned. Mostly because he is the one that has his life in his hands and it’s important for Theon’s survival that Ned will care about him because if he does it’s less likely that he will kill him if it ever comes to that.

No, Theon was not a blood relation to the Starks, and no one is claiming that. But Theon wanted to be a Stark, and he was raised with the Starks as Jon Snow was. Family does not need to be defined by genetics. If Theon wants to believe the Starks are more his family than Balon and Asha, that's fine with me.

Yes, Theon wanted to be a Stark but he was never accepted as one:

"Why do you love the Starks?” “I …” Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. “… I wanted to be one of them …”

“And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord.” - The turncloak

and here's the complete winterfell quote :

"It was my home, though. Not a true home, but the best I ever knew." - a ghost in Winterfell

the fact that "not a true home" was still the best he ever had is the sad part! and just because he had a worse situation to compare to his hostage one, does not speak in the benefit of the hostage situation if he still considers it "not a true home"

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