Queen Naerys - The Unlucky One

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The World of Ice and Fire cleared quite a lot, where the Targaryen history is concerned. But there is one storyline that recently caught my attention.. A pattern, beautifully written, and subtle, but completely in character once realised.

King Aegon IV Targaryen was not a pleasant man, I think most, if not all, would agree. And while he claims to have slept with more than 900 hundred women, and loved 9 of those besides, it is also known that Aegon did not love his sister-wife, Naerys. She represented everything he disliked, and therefore, he disliked her. Still, he got her pregnant at least four times. And it’s the timing of those pregnancies that I found rather interesting..

It appears that the pregnancies of Naerys fall together with moments where Aegon found himself ‘suddenly’ without a mistress (during those years when Naerys still lived).

Prince Daeron: Losing Lady Falena Stokeworth

In 149 AC, the fourteen year old Prince Aegon Targaryen begins his affair with the twenty-four year old Falena Stokeworth. They are discovered in 151 AC by a Kingsguard knight, who notifies Prince Viserys, Aegon’s father. Viserys thinks he deals with matters, as he marries Falena off to his own master-at-arms, Lucas Lothston, and convinces his brother, King Aegon III, to grand Lothston the seat of Harrenhal. Viserys thinks he has removed Falena from court, and while that might be true, that does not stop Aegon from visiting Harrenhal frequently for the two years that follow.

Take 151 AC, and look two years further, and we find ourselves in 153 AC, the year where Aegon and Naerys were married, and the year where Prince Daeron was born – on the last day of the year, to be exact. Thus, reasons enough to assume that Aegon and Naerys got married in the first few months of the year.. ;)

It is said that Aegon’s visits to Harrenhal were frequent those two years, but it should be clear that in 153 AC, they ended. Aegon’s marriage was most likely the reason. In fact, we could even see it otherwise. Aegon’s marriage might even have been because he wouldn’t stop seeing Falena.

Fact remains that Aegon ‘s affair with Falena ended the year he married Naerys, and his firstborn child was born. Coincidence? I don’t believe it is.

The Stillborn twins: Losing Lady Casella Vaith

After the Submission of Sunspear, Aegon took the Dornish hostages back to King´s Landing. One of these hostages, Lady Casella Vaith, became Aegon´s lover quickly enough. By the time of the death of Daeron I in 161 AC, however, Aegon had grown bored with Casella.

How quickly had Aegon grown bored with this mistress? That is not specified, but we do know that Naerys gave birth to stillborn twins that same year. It is implied that the birth of these twins occurred towards the end of the year, even, and that Daeron I’s death (and thus Viserys’ call of rounding up the hostages for execution, and thus also the phrase “Aegon had grown bored of her”) in the beginning of the year.*

But bored of her or not, he was still keeping her around. In early 161 AC, he was forced to give her up, as Prince Viserys demanded her to be delivered for execution. Losing Casella, thus, was not Aegon’s own choice. So here we see it again. Aegon’s mistress is suddenly gone, so he returns to the bed of his wife, gets her with child, and sees her almost dying whilst trying to birth the children.

*Looking at the information given of this period in time, we see the following events occurring:

• King Daeron I dies in Dorne
• Hand of the King Viserys Targaryen assembles all Dornish hostages to be executed. Prince Aegon hands over his own mistress as well.
• Baelor I is crowned, and publicly forgives his brothers killers
• He then travels to Dorne with the hostages behind him, he on foot, they on horses. By the way of Wyl, Baelor walks to Sunspear, and from there, back to Wyl again, to free Aemon the Dragonknight
• The events at the viper pit leave Baelor unconscious. Aemon travels with him to Blackhaven, from where they travel to Storm’s End
• “It was half a year and more before he was well enough to travel to King’s Landing”.

GRRM’s descriptions of the princesses entering the Maidenvault, as well as the World Book, suggest that this still occurred in 161 AC.

Meanwhile, we also know that shortly after Naerys gave birth to the stillborn twins, specified to have occurred in 161 AC, Baelor began a fast which lasted for a month. In addition, Baelor also send Aegon to Braavos that year.

The wording of the beginning of the chapter Baelor I in The World of Ice and Fire suggests that only a little time passed in between Baelor ascending the throne and Baelor leaving for Sunspear.

News soon reached King's Landing of King Daeron's death and the rout of his remaining forces. The outrage that followed was swiftly directed at the Dornish hostages. At the command of the King's Hand, Prince Viserys, they were thrown in the dungeons to await hanging. The Hand's eldest son, Prince Aegon, even delivered the Dornish girl he had made his paramour to his father to await execution.

The Young Dragon had never married, nor fathered children, Accordingly, upon his death, the Iron Throne passed to his brother Baelor, a youth of ten-and-seven. Baelor proved to be the most pious king in the Targaryen dynasty, and some say in the history of all the Seven Kingdoms. His first act as king was to grant pardon to the Dornish hostages. Many similar acts of piety and forgiveness folllowed throughout Baelor's ten-year reign. Even as his lords and council cried for vengeance, Baelor publicly forgave his brother's killers and declared that he meant to "bind up the wounds" of his brother's war and make peace with Dorne. As an act of piety, he declared, he would go to Dorne "with neither sword nor army", to return their hostages and sue for peace. And so he did, walking barefoot from King's Landing to Sunspear, clad only in sackcloth, while the hostages rode fine horses behind him.

Viserys takes the hostages, but Baelor acts fast enough to prevent their execution, instead ordering that they shall be returned to Dorne. "Even as his lords and council cried for vengeance"... this doesn't sound like there was a month between Baelor pardoning the hostages, and Baelor forgiving the dornish rebels and declaring he'll go to Dorne himself. And neither does it sound like Baelor made his decision, and then decided to wait a month so he could fast. Which would all suggest that Naerys' twins were born and died rather late in the year, after Baelor had walked to Sunspear, went back to Wyl, went from Wyl to Blackhaven, and Blackhaven to Storm’s End, where he stayed for more than half a year, before he finally returned back to King’s Landing, in time to start a fast shortly after the birth of Naerys’ twins.

As Baelor’s adventures in Dorne and his journey back together seem to take quite a lot of time, it is thus suggested that Daeron I died early in 161 AC, and that Baelor returned to King’s Landing late in 161 AC.

Daenerys and her stillborn brother: Bellegere & Lady Barba

But the pattern doesn’t end in 161 AC. The failed childbirth results in Aegon being send to Braavos, where he spends an unknown amount of time, and starts up a new affair, which would last a decade. After, Aegon and Bellegere part ways (Aegon has been back in Westeros for a years, by now, either visiting Braavos only every now and then, or having Bellegere visit the port of King’s Landing). What ended this affair? Bellegere was said to have been a strong woman, with a ‘husband’ in every port she visited. So was it truly Aegon who ended the relationship? Or was it Bellegere? If it had been her, Aegon would be mistressless again o so suddenly.

What happens in 171 AC, when the affair with Bellegere ends? King Baelor I dies, and the Maidenvault is opened, freeing more ladies than just royal Princesses.. Lady Barba Bracken leaves the Maidenvault as well, and she managed to catch Aegon’s eye. His “secret” mistress for a year, Barba became Aegon’s mistress openly when he himself ascended the throne in 172 AC. That same year, only a fortnight before Naerys gave birth to a stillborn boy, and to Daenerys, Barba gave birth to a bastard boy named Aegor Rivers.

Viserys is said to have ruled “little more than a year”, and Baelor I seems to have died very early in 171 AC*. That would suggest that Viserys himself died rather early in 172 AC, as barely a year had passed since the death of Baelor I in very early 171 AC. With the births of Daenerys and Aegor so close together, the conceptions will have been close together as well in time. And conveniently, this conception seems to find itself around the time Aegon and Barba began their affair. That Barba gave birth first does not necessarily have to mean she conceived first, but that doesn´t really matter. It is enough to know that the conceptions occurred close together, and fit a timeframe where Aegon switched mistress.

*King Baelor I began his fast of 40 days shortly after the birth of Daemon Waters (whether it was a matter of days or hours remains unknown, but it won’t have been longer). Daemon was born in 170 AC, and Baelor died in 171 AC. With only 41 days (or slightly more) in between these two events, it seems clear that Daemon’s birth took place late in the year 170 AC, and Baelor’s death early in the year 171 AC. Which would place Viserys’ ascension early in 171 AC as well. As Viserys reigned “little more than a year”, his own death would have occurred rather early in 172 AC.

The final child: Ladies Bethany & Jeyne

One year after Prince Aemon the Dragonknight died, Naerys died in childbirth. Prince Aemon’s exact date of death is unknown, as of yet, but there is one possibility more likely than others, I think.

Aemon died defending Aegon from two brothers of House Toyne, who wanted to avenge their brother, Terrence, who had been executed by Aegon in 178 AC. How quickly Terrence’s brothers tried to take their revenge isn’t known, but it would seem most likely that they did not wait too long, and made their attempt that same year. If that is the case, Aemon did indeed die in 178 AC.

It would seem that there was still some time left in 178 AC after Bethany´s death, as Aegon busied himself with whores, before taking Lady Jeyne Lothston (and according to rumours, also Jeyne’s mother Falena) as his mistress, all in 178 AC. Aegon spend some time with these women, before giving Jeyne a pox Aegon himself had caught from a whore. The Lothstones were send away from court again, soon after her arrival.

With the loss of two mistresses, this shortly after one another, Aegon would have been more likely than before, perhaps, to turn to the bed of his wife, while being without a mistress. Any conception that would come from such a bedding, would then have taken place either in 178 AC itself, or early 179 AC (as we don’t know how soon ‘soon’ was for Lady Jeyne’s dismissal, and whether the year had turned in between her start as mistress, and her being send away). Placing the birth of Naerys’ last children in 179 AC as well, in all likelihood – one year after Prince Aemon’s most likely “year of death” option.

Conclusion

So we have Naerys’ pregnancies (153 AC, 161 AC, 172 AC, and 178 AC), and Aegon’s loss of mistresses, mostly decisions that were not all that voluntarily:

• Falena was most likely a decision forced by Viserys, as Prince Viserys forced Aegon’s marriage to Naerys.
• Casella was definitely forced, despite Aegon having grown bored with her, as Viserys demanded her be delivered to him for execution.
• Bellegere, rumored to have had a lover in each port she visited, would have been the most likely candidate to have ended the relationship, (quite possibly aided by the news of the birth of Daemon Waters in late 170 AC)
• Bethany, whose affair with Ser Terrence was something Aegon would not have know beforehand,
• And Jeyne, who Aegon could not have predicted would catch the pox.

That in comparison to the rest of Aegon’s mistresses. While Aegon’s relationship with Megette was ended by Viserys, and not Aegon himself, Aegon seems to have been in Dorne by the time Megette was send away, and not in King’s Landing. By the time Aegon returned, he already had found himself another mistress to keep himself busy with (Casella). Lady Barba’s dismissal was not Aegon’s decision either, but as Missy Blackwood “reigned” for five years, a reign which ended by 177 AC, it would appear she replaced Barba soon… The Bracken-Blackwood enemity at its finest. With Naerys still recovering from childbirth, there would have been little time to visit her bed before Melissa arrived. And naturally, by the time Serenei died, it seems Naerys was already dead herself.

So basically, whenever the decision to send away a mistress did not come from Aegon himself, in other words, whenever he did not have a girl ready to warm his bed, he turned to his wife, knowing the dangers fully well.

Though perhaps not 100% perferct, the pattern does seem to be there. And while it might be slightly disgusting.. It does seem to fit Aegon’s personality.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Very well written but I didn't understand. What is the pattern here? :mellow:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Very well written but I didn't understand. What is the pattern here? :mellow:

When Aegon has a mistress, Naerys doesn't get pregnant. But when Aegon 'suddenly' doesn't have a mistress, he decides to endanger her life by sleeping with her, the woman he apparently likes least of all, resulting in getting her pregnant. Basically, Aegon knocked Naerys up every time due to boredom, if that's the right word.

[Lord Varys]

I'd not go with Naerys marriage having anything to do with the continuing Lothston affair. Aegon III/Viserys clearly would have arranged the Aegon-Naerys for dynastic purposes only, not to dissuade Aegon from extramarital affairs. Especially not with a sibling-marriage were no feelings were involved on both sides. Daeron was most likely conceived in the wedding night, or closely thereafter, as I imagine Aegon was quite happy showing Naerys that he was her lord husband now during the first weeks/months of their marriage. I don't think Naerys was serving as a step-in for a mistress at this time.

Doesn't Aegon chance upon Merry Meg while riding in the Riverlands? Thus Aegon could have replaced Falena with Meg.

Cassella Vaith:

It does not seem to me as if Viserys could sentence the hostages to death. That was the king's prerogative, I think, but Viserys would have expected Baelor to sentence them to death, and thus commanded to confine them to the dungeons until the king condemned them to death. Aegon delivering Cassella to Viserys looks like preemptive obedience to me. He saw a chance to get rid of her and took it, while at the same time trying to distance himself from any Dornish(wo)man he may have favored in the last few years.

Bellegere:

We can see her easily as the woman ending a relationship. I imagine this thing was fiery enough for the first few years while Aegon lived in Braavos, but became an on-off-relationship later on (which is why the paternity of Balerion is questioned). Depending on when exactly Aegon returned to KL, I could see them taking up their affair their occasionally, too.

Daena:

Aegon must have returned from Braavos either occasionally or permanently in or around 169 AC, as Daemon Waters was born in 170 AC, and could only been fathered by Aegon if he was back in the capital at that time. Considering the Maidenvault situation I'd assume that Aegon was back for good at that time, as meeting/seducing Daena would have been no easy task.

[More later. Stupid downtime, this was all that the board could auto save.]

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Oh. OK, yeah it makes sense, when his mistresses are away he bangs his wife.

I really feel pity for Naerys tho :crying:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lord Varys,

Lucky you. :) Usually, when I experience the downtime, everything I've typed is gone..

Had Aegon still had a mistress during those first few weeks or months of marriage, he would have been rather busy. Still, he would most likely have visited Naerys' bed more often during those first few days, but fact remains that the marriage occured around the same time as his relationship with Falena ended.

Falena was not replaced with Merry Meg. Falena ends her "reign" in 153 AC, Megette only shows up in 155 AC.

With Casella, Aegon had no choice or not. Yandel states Aegon had already grown bored with her, yet he still kept her, otherwise, she would not have been his to return to Viserys. So bored or no, Aegon still wanted her around, even if it was only until he found something (someone) better. With Casella ordered away so suddenly, Aegon shortly had no one.

With Bellegere, yeah, I can't see Aegon having stayed in Braavos for 9 years or so. He would most likely have returned earlier. And, as I said in the OP, either visited Braavos every now and then, or have Bellegere (with her own ship, nice and easy) visit KL.

[Lord Varys]

Naerys:

Well, I guess we should then go with Viserys wanted to get rid of the mistress so that the royal wedding would not look like a mockery/charade rather than that Aegon had to marry Naerys because he had had a mistress up to this point.

Falena/Meg:

We do know that Aegon continued to visit Harrenhal after 153 AC, and thus it is entirely possible that Aegon chanced upon Meg while returning from or traveling to Harrenhal.

Casella:

I took this growing bored thing as the relationship nearing its end, but you can continue to stick to somebody for sex (or because you are just lazy) even if you actually no longer love the person. I imagine that's what Aegon was doing at this point. Casella's delusion that he was actually in love with her most likely has its root in the fact that he never actually mistreated her or told her the truth about his feelings, but rather jumped on an outside opportunity to dump her.

If I'm not mistaken, then it is nowhere stated that Aegon was commanded to deliver Casella to Viserys. We only know that he did. There is a chance that he just delivered her to his father because he wanted to do that, not because Viserys forced him to. He may have been willing to make an exception for his son's mistress or due to the fact that Casella was a woman.

Daena/Barbra:

I'd actually go with the assumption that Barbra Bracken - a companion of the Princesses in the Tower - was already Aegon's secret lover/mistress prior to Baelor's death. We know that Barbra was ambitious, and I think we could make a case that she, being in cahoots with Aegon, was crucial to Daena's fateful flight from the Maidenvault and her subsequent secret meeting with Aegon. The purpose of this plot would have been to remove Daena as a potential claimant to the Iron Throne by dishonoring her through a bastard birth. This way, Viserys came closer to the Iron Throne - and thus, by default, Aegon.

I'd also not be surprised if Barbra was involved in the poisoning of Viserys II - if he was poisoned.

Generally speaking, I think we should also consider the presence of the Dragonknight in all this. I'd rather make a case that Aegon only shared Naerys' bed when Aemon wasn't there. I think we can assume that Aegon was afraid of his brother because he knew Aemon suffer it if he actively mistreated her.

During the conception of the stillborn twins Aemon seems to have been in his cage, and it would be possible that he was on an extended mission as a KG (say, escorting Daeron and Mariah for a visit to Sunspear) when Naerys conceived Daenerys and her stillborn sibling.

[History of Westeros]

I definitely agree with the theory (and thanks for turning me onto it in time to get it in my last episode!)

It doesn't have to be perfectly true for it to be generally true. The man was clearly a sex addict and/or just extremely lusty, and without a mistress around, he's going to make due. His wife is clearly going to be an option. I do think Varys is right that Aemon's presence should be considered as a major factor.

I also think he liked having children (he genuinely liked Aegor & Daemon, for example) so he's going to want to get his wife pregnant as much as possible.

The Unworthy clearly visited Harrenhal during his affair with the Black Pearl (161-71) or the rumors that Jeyne Lothston (born in 164) was his own child make no sense whatsoever.

I agree with the possibility that Barba and/or her father had something to do with Viserys' death. The opportunity to rule through the corruptible Aegon IV is tempting for ambitious types, especially when compared to the strong willed Viserys II as an alternative. I'd not be surprised if Aegon himself was in on it. He had a lot of reasons to despise his father.

Do we know for sure that Aegon actually went in to the Maidenvault? It's possible he didn't, since we know Daena herself escaped thrice. She may have been the one to seek out Aegon rather than the other way around. She would be upset with Baelor for the peacemaking. Her beloved brother, Daeron the Young Dragon, whom she tried to emulate, was killed by the Dornish. Aegon also hated the Dornish, so they had that in common. Daena seeking out Aegon to get pregnant by him could be her way of getting back at Baelor. It would embarrass him (it did) and it would

If he did indeed spend time in the Maidenvault, I like Varys' idea that he was already getting involved with Barba.

As for Casella. I highly doubt Viserys was at all ok with his son having this affair, embarrassing (again) his own daughter. Viserys considered the Merry Meg and Falena Stokeworth situations to be embarrassing, and took action to cut them off (this is one of the major reasons for Aegon to despise his father) from him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

At the command of the King's Hand, Prince Viserys, [the Dornish hostages] were thrown into the dungeons to await hanging. The Hand's eldest son, Prince Aegon, even delivered the Dornish girl he had made his paramour to his father to await execution.

Viserys did command the hostages, though. I read the entire quote as Aegon chosing to send Casella to Viserys, instead of Viserys forcefully taking her.

[History of Westeros]

Something new has occurred to me here. One huge mystery with essentially no clues is Daena the Defiant's date of death. She could potentially be a huge player in Daeron's court, and before/during the Blackfyre Rebellion itself.

But consider this: Aegon didn't reveal Daemon was his son until Daemon was 12. Why? He had been king for 10-11 years, why wait?

What I'm getting at: what if Aegon wasn't actually the father of Daemon? What if he didn't reveal Daemon's parentage because he knew Daena would call him out as a liar. But if she was dead by then, there would be no one to possibly argue against him. Daena's death would free Aegon up to tell whatever story he wanted about Daemon's paternity.

It makes sense, because Aegon would want to claim this incredible child as his own, especially given how disappointed he was with Daeron. Of course, this means answering the question of who Daemon's real father was, and I can't think of any good candidates. I don't think it could be Aemon, though it would be hilarious if it was. Imagine, accused of being Daeron's true father so as to pave the way for Daemon's claim, but the truth is that Daemon really was Aemon's son, and Daeron really was Aegon IV's. Even more ironic, because Daemon was said to have "the makings of another Dragonknight".

It's hard to swallow the idea that Aemon broke his vows with Daena, or anyone, though.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting idea.

Aegon IV mostly did what he wanted. He made Elaena marry, but not Daena. Was she already dead perhaps? Rhaena he couldn't marry off, as she became a septa, but Daena... Elaena was allowed to refuse at first, until Alyn did not return, do Daena could have refused as well... Which would have made her more defiant, and I wonder if Yandel would omit that.. he could have, but still..

[Lord Varys]

I'm pretty sure Aegon essentially fucked Naerys until she died. Pregnancy became extremely problematic for her as early as 153 AC, but Aegon still seemed to have controlled himself while Aemon was around - after that, she was dead. Especially if we consider the monstrosity he had become in the end.

Daena and Aegon:

We don't really know how their little meeting was arranged, but the overall scenario really looks fishy if you closely examine it. Daena and her sisters were in isolation for 8-9 years by then. Aegon was in Braavos for much of the time, making it rather unlikely that any sort of attraction could develop between these two. Thus we have to assume that Aegon either entered the Maidenvault or contacted Daena through a liaison (Barbra), or such a liaison essentially arranged things so that Aegon could chance upon Daena during her escape to seduce her (then Daena would not have been interested in Aegon prior to her escape).

I'm not sure which option I favor, but it is very unlikely that only Daena and Aegon were involved in that whole thing.

There may be some reason for Daena loathing Baelor, but the war was over for eight/nine years by then, and Daena had not really to gain anything politically from giving birth to a bastard or beginning an affair with her cousin - Aegon was already married. Aegon and Barbra could have fucked with her mind, convincing her that Aegon would help her seize the throne upon Baelor's death - if we assume she wanted it, which does not seem too unlikely to me.

Casella thing:

I read the 'even' there in the way that Aegon willingly jumped on chance to rid himself of her rather than Viserys demanding that she be confined to a black cell. Imagine the scenario like this: Viserys is just receiving a report that all the other Dornish hostages have been moved from their comfy apartments into the dungeons when Aegon shows up with Casella to deliver her to his father before he has even given him the command to do so. But that's just my personal imagination, I'm not willing to die over that ;-).

Mistresses thing in general:

We know too little about Viserys and Aegon's youth to decide why Viserys even forced Aegon and Naerys to marry - and not, say, Naerys and Aemon. It was clearly a dynastic marriage, and if it was Viserys' decision - and not Aegon III's and Daenaera's - then I think part of it could be motivated by the fact that 'You are my children, and you do as I tell you, even if your mother didn't', or something like that.

By the time of the marriage Aegon's nature should already have been apparent (lustiness), and I'm not sure if Viserys had any objections to affairs, or if it was rather the way Aegon went about it - i.e. making a fool of himself and the Crown.

Viserys' death:

My personal guess is that Aegon actually decided to kill his father - if he did it - because he realized/feared/had reason to fear that Viserys II was intending to name Daeron his heir, passing over Aegon in favor of his own son. By this time (171) Viserys should have realized what sort of king his son would become, and he would also have had time to realize what kind of man Daeron - then eighteen years old - had become.

It makes little sense to believe that Viserys II, had he ruled for a 1-2 decades or so, had really intended to hand over the Realm to a man like Aegon. Viserys and Daeron had brought Dorne into the Realm in the 170s.

Daena's death:

The theory of 'Daemon Falseborn' is actually difficult to disprove, as we have only Aegon's word for it. And that's not particularly good... No idea about his real father, though, if this was the case. Aemon is very unlikely. But despite the fact that Daemon had very distinct Valyrian features we don't have to assume that both his parents must have been Valyrians.

I'm pretty sure Daena was already dead in 196 AC, but possibly even when Daeron II ascended the Iron Throne, as she could actually have been a mitigating factor, preventing the growing rift between Daeron II and Daemon. The fact that Daeron II, and not Daena, pays the dowry to the Archon of Tyrosh also suggests that Daena was dead by then (else she most likely would have done that). Daena is also not mentioned when Aegon IV knights Daemon, gives him Blackfyre, and recognizes him as his son.

We know that Elaena became a close confidant of Daeron II, suggesting that all the sisters may have been close to young Daeron while they had not been confined to the Maidenvault (Elaena is only three years older than Daeron, thus the girls would have been raised at court together). We also know that Daeron liked or admired Baelor, as he named his eldest son after him, and was possibly very grateful to him for giving him Mariah - nothing shows this better than the whole 'Baelor - your work is done!' episode, which could mean he was close to Rhaena, too. She became a septa following her brother's example.

As to Daena's marriage:

She was soiled goods after she gave birth to Daemon. Still, I think some nobleman would have married her, but considering her personality I guess she was strong enough to refuse to marry. Note that it is stated that Elaena agreed to marry after Alyn did not come back. It does not seem to be that Aegon forced her to marry her, but rather asked her 'Hey, are you going to marry now, or what?' and she answered 'Yeah, sure' - and then he presented Ossifer. I really think this was his sort of humor: 'Well, sweetie, we all know you like your men old, don't we...?'

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm.. I had been wondering about Viserys' decision (if it really had been his decision) to marry Aegon to Naerys, and not Aemon. Or, why he did not allow her to become a septa.

Aegon was Viserys' heir, even before gaining the throne became an actual possibility. And Viserys had seen the trouble having a foreign wife could get you into.. he had been besieged in his own home, after all, when he returned with Larra. So, perhaps, that traumatized him enough to marry his daughter to his eldest son, as to ensure that, no matter where Aegon ended up, similar situations could not arise.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Naerys would never have had the opportunity to join the Faith, as she was the breeding animal. Viserys had only three children, and he apparently never remarried, so for quite a long time House Targaryen was stuck with Viserys' heirs to continue the line, not with Aegon's. In 153 AC Aegon III already had all his own children, but they may have thought about the next generation. Aegon's sons were too young to be married to Naerys, and they were children at that time. House Targaryen needed stability. We know that Aegon III supposedly died of consumption, and he could already have been sick in 153 AC, so this marriage may have been a way too create more stability for the dynasty should something happen to Aegon's sons.

The smart way to deal with Aegon would have been to get him out of the way - Faith, Citadel, Kingsguard, Wall - but I guess by that time the only thing apparent was that Aegon was a very virile. His actual corruption only seems to have become apparent/developed fully during his reign (although there is always the possibility that he could hide his darker nature and ambition, at least in part, while his father was still alive, showing the world only his witty and smart face).

Since Aegon was Viserys' eldest son he may always had high hopes for him, as he was his firstborn and all. Apparently Viserys features quite heavily during Gyldayn's history of the Regency, and Ran has repeatedly said that he was a quite interesting character while Larra was still around. This whole cold and calculating thing came after he was abandoned by his wife. But I imagine the relationship between Larra and Viserys would have been rather weird. He may have been very much drawn to her, but was she actually in love with a boy seven years younger than she was? And did the whole thing began more as a elder sister-younger brother relationship, or did Larra become sort of surrogate mother for Viserys? We don't really know when the Rogares claimed Viserys as their price, but I imagine this happened immediately after Viserys was brought to Lys in early 130 AC. He was only eight years old by then, after all.

From how I see it, Aegon III was the pawn of the regents mostly throughout the first half of the Regency. The marriage to Daenaera, Viserys' return with Larra, should have strengthened the Targaryen power bloc around Aegon III (he himself, Alyn Velaryon and Baela, Viserys). The Rogares supposedly helped break the power of the regents, although we don't really know how this worked.

But the Targaryen brothers clearly had come into their own when they decided to defy their own Hand and war against the (remaining) regents in the Red Keep itself. I'd not be surprised if Munkun found himself on a ship to Oldtown and confined to a small cell in the Citadel from 136-157 AC (at least) for messing with Aegon III and Viserys the way he apparently did (if we assume he wielded any real power as last remaining regent and Grand Maester - which he actually should have, as I'm not sure who could have authorized the arrest of Lord Thaddeus Rowan, the last remaining other regent, if he did not). He was no longer Grand Maester in 153 AC but was later restored to the office.

But I digress. Aziz and Ashaya did a really good job in assessing the character/state of mind of Viserys and their children in their episode on Aegon the Unworthy.

[History of Westeros]

Varys: thanks, we had a lot of fun trying to figure him out. As always, whenever we do an episode, I come here and read what you guys are up to and find something I wish I had included :)

re: Viserys and his attitude towards his son. There may be a bit of Tywin here... Tywin was notoriously blind regarding Jaime and Cersei's incest. Perhaps Viserys refused to believe the worst about his son, too, even though he was clearly aware of his affairs. I agree that the worst of his behaviors didn't manifest until he was King.

Actually, as I type that I realize there are a lot of parallels between Tywin and Viserys. Ultra capable as Hand of the King, but served under bad kings. Both were Hand at an extremely young age. Jaime and Cersei have a lot in common with Aemon and Naerys. Viserys and Tywin both had "all the joy go out of them" when they lost their wives, and both are known for being cold & calculating (especially after the loss of wife).

I had never considered the possibility that Aegon IV feared his father passing him over. That is definitely a good thought, and it doesn't even have to be "true" for Aegon to believe it so. For example, Barba Bracken, Lord Bracken or Falena Stokeworth could've started that rumor and convinced Aegon it was true. A bit like how we're told Aegon II didn't want to usurp his sister's crown until he was convinced that Rhaenyra would have him executed.

regarding Daena: I completely forgot this line, it pretty much seals it for me that Daena sought out Aegon (or someone) rather than vice versa:

"She even contrived, toward the end of Baelor’s reign, to get herself with child—though some might say it would have been better had she been less defiant, for all the trouble that son brought to the realm."

Another semi-crackpot idea for Daena/Aegon: Imagine that Daena is still alive when Aegon announces that Daemon Waters-Blackfyre is his son (in this scenario, we are assuming Aegon is not Daemon's father), Daena says nothing, because Aegon has promised her "if you accept this lie, I won't force you to remarry". Daena might not even mind the lie that much, as it means the world thinks her son is the son of the King. Since we know she was ambitious, she could've already been thinking how this lie would help her son take the throne, which we know she wanted for herself.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

regarding Daena: I completely forgot this line, it pretty much seals it for me that Daena sought out Aegon (or someone) rather than vice versa:

"She even contrived, toward the end of Baelor’s reign, to get herself with child—though some might say it would have been better had she been less defiant, for all the trouble that son brought to the realm."

Another semi-crackpot idea for Daena/Aegon: Imagine that Daena is still alive when Aegon announces that Daemon Waters-Blackfyre is his son (in this scenario, we are assuming Aegon is not Daemon's father), Daena says nothing, because Aegon has promised her "if you accept this lie, I won't force you to remarry". Daena might not even mind the lie that much, as it means the world thinks her son is the son of the King. Since we know she was ambitious, she could've already been thinking how this lie would help her son take the throne, which we know she wanted for herself.

Hmm.. Daemon's acknowledgement came only in 182 AC though, ten years into Aegon's reign. If Daena hadn't been forced to marry by then, how big are the odds that she still would be?

And I don't think that we know Daena wanted the throne. We suspect.

THOUGH BOTH OF the sons of King Aegon III were dead, his three daughters yet survived, and there were some amongst the smallfolk—and even some lords—who felt that the Iron Throne should by rights now pass to Princess Daena. They were few, however; a decade of isolation in the Maidenvault had left Daena and her sisters without powerful allies, and memories of the woes that had befallen the realm when last a woman sat the Iron Throne were still fresh. Daena the Defiant was seen by many lords as being wild and unmanageable besides . . . and wanton as well, for a year earlier she had given birth to a bastard son she named Daemon, whose sire she steadfastly refused to name.

Nothing on Daena's own desires here. Or is there a quote I am not thinking of?

[Lord Varys]

There is no proof that Daena was actually ambitious enough to want the throne. But it is reasonably assume that she would not have turned it down, or would not have found it proper to get after Baelor treated her the way he did.

I once asked George whether the fact that Daemon was descended Daena/Aegon III as well as Aegon IV/Viserys II did anything to strengthen his claim, as he could have been supported by the people who thought Daena should have been queen. But this does not seem to be the case. Which makes it very likely that Daena was already dead by then.

In fact, when we think about it, if Daena had still be alive in 196 AC, and if she wanted to be Queen Regnant, there would have been a pretty good chance that Daemon would have tried to claim the throne for his mother, as her champion, successfully circumventing the whole bastard-issue.

I don't think Daena ever married, and there is a pretty good chance that she died during Aegon's reign, possibly before Aegon acknowledged Daemon.

Daena was soiled goods, and nothing suggests that Aegon was actually very concerned with marrying off his relatives. He did not make matches - as far as we know - for neither of Daeron's sons nor his own daughter Daenerys. All of them should have been old enough to be betrothed in his last years, as was Daemon (and the fact that he did betroth Daemon should be seriously considered as a hint that his ultimate design might have been to disinherit Daeron in favor of Daemon - had he lived a decade longer or so).

Rhaena would have already been a septa in 172 AC, I think, but Elaena was also not pressurized into a marriage immediately after she was released from the Maidenvault or after Aegon ascended the Iron Throne. In fact, it seems as if she was asked whether she wanted to marry and then was stuck with Ossifer.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, the whole Alyn thing would have lasted a few years already. If he marriage was both arranged and occurred in 176 AC, you'd have to account for she year she waited (175), and the year she was actually pregnant (174). In fact, I see an even longer period of time. Elaeba gets pregnant with Alyns twins, but he leaves on his journey before she discovers it. She gives birth in time, and patiently waits for as long as Alyns journey was supposed to take (which, depending on where he was going, could have easily been 1,5 to 2 years). When he doesn't return she waits an additional year, before agreeing to marry elsewhere.

Which would cover Elaena for the period of 173-176. And the relationship itself could have lasted a year as well, and Aegon might not have wanted to offend this powerful bannerman if his by wedding away the girl he loved.

As to Rhaena, if she had been a septa prior to her release in 171 AC, why was she still in the Maidenvault? Why wouldn't she have been allowed to be with the other septas in whatever there was before the Great Sept (which wasn't finished yet)

[Lord Varys]

Rhaena:

Baelor did not intend to release his sisters. Elaena had to stay in, even after she had cut off her hair. I'm not sure taking a septa's vows would have changed that - especially since Rhaena could then take care of the souls of her fellow inmates...

Elaena/Alyn:

I could see that this thing already began during Viserys' short reign, perhaps with Alyn serving as Viserys' Hand at that time (or he continued to serve as Master of Ships). Whether Alyn lived to see Jon and Jeyne Waters we don't really know. But realistically speaking we should assume some time for this unlikely attraction and affair to begin. Surely Elaena would at first have looked for male company among the men closer to her own age.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I find cutting your hair short to be quite something different that taking a septa's vows, but ok :) But you do have a point about Septa Rhaena being able to take care of the souls of all of those maidens in the Vault.

To get back on something said earlier on the thread, concerning Barba (which is why we are discussing the Maidenvault :p )

Daena and Aegon:

We don't really know how their little meeting was arranged, but the overall scenario really looks fishy if you closely examine it. Daena and her sisters were in isolation for 8-9 years by then. Aegon was in Braavos for much of the time, making it rather unlikely that any sort of attraction could develop between these two. Thus we have to assume that Aegon either entered the Maidenvault or contacted Daena through a liaison (Barbra), or such a liaison essentially arranged things so that Aegon could chance upon Daena during her escape to seduce her (then Daena would not have been interested in Aegon prior to her escape).

I'm not sure which option I favor, but it is very unlikely that only Daena and Aegon were involved in that whole thing.

There may be some reason for Daena loathing Baelor, but the war was over for eight/nine years by then, and Daena had not really to gain anything politically from giving birth to a bastard or beginning an affair with her cousin - Aegon was already married. Aegon and Barbra could have fucked with her mind, convincing her that Aegon would help her seize the throne upon Baelor's death - if we assume she wanted it, which does not seem too unlikely to me.

I don't think that we should assume that Aegon spend as much time in Braavos as is suggested here. Aegon would have been back in Westeros by 163/164 AC, to give the rumours of Aegon being Jeyne Lothstons father any ground (had it been known that Aegon was in Braavos that time, there wouldn't been such rumours).

Also, I don't think that there necessarily has to have been a lot that happened between Daena and Aegon before they slept together. It could have been a one-night stand, with any attraction that was present arising that day. Both were good looking, and Daena was looking for adventure, and Aegon was always looking for someone to warm his bed with.

Their meet-up could have happened spontaneously, with Daena escaping, and running into Aegon. There is no need for a liaison (Barba).

Daena/Barbra:

I'd actually go with the assumption that Barbra Bracken - a companion of the Princesses in the Tower - was already Aegon's secret lover/mistress prior to Baelor's death. We know that Barbra was ambitious, and I think we could make a case that she, being in cahoots with Aegon, was crucial to Daena's fateful flight from the Maidenvault and her subsequent secret meeting with Aegon. The purpose of this plot would have been to remove Daena as a potential claimant to the Iron Throne by dishonoring her through a bastard birth. This way, Viserys came closer to the Iron Throne - and thus, by default, Aegon.

So with all of that, I don't think there's anything to suggest that Barba became Aegon's secret mistress before the Maidenvault was reopened. Or am I not thinking of some other quote?