The Man from Nowhere Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think Jon loves Arya so much because she is most like Lyanna, Jons real mother. Oedipus complex and all that. How many times are we told that Arya is like Lyanna? The strong connection between them now makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Unfortunately I can't find the SSM now and the older Jon and Arya threads I posted in I don't see that I posted it. I think it was a chat type of interview. I don't remember his exact response but it wasn't like no I'm not trying to imply anything romantic between them they are just brother and sister. In retrospect it's very interesting that he was asked that question. ETA: Nevermind. I found a thread where someone else posted it.Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?George_RR_Martin: “Say something to the reader?” No, I’m just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader. [source] Anyways, as for Dany I haven't seen any theory that involves Arya going to Mereen. They theorize Arya going to one of the other Free Cities and meeting Dany there. She was told to learn the languages of other Free Cities. She can also meet Tyrion. I think Greyjoys are also in her future so PoVs can interlap then. I doubt Tyrion will fall in love but she did already attract a dwarf. & it was always curious that Tyrion and Arya didn't interact before. I never believed the theories that Tyrion was in mortal danger if he came across Arya. I think they will meet in Essos and obviously he will outlive that as he has other things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 ETA: Nevermind. I found a thread where someone else posted it.Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?George_RR_Martin: “Say something to the reader?” No, I’m just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader. [source] I remember this one too :) I never had a patience to go through all SSMs but some of them pop up in the threads from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I consider Arya meeting Dany a possibility cause of the possible foreshadowing that happened while crossing the river with Sandor clegane and she saw a "kraken" and a "dragon". I'd have to go digging to find the exact quote, but it is interesting. I don't expect even if she did meet a Dany, it would be in Meereen. Southern Essos would be my guess. I'm kind of torn actually, cause on the one hand I want her to see Jon again, but on the other I see a pathway where she helps rescue the Hardhome captives, sails South, has an encounter with Dany in Southern Essos, and they bond a little over their shared love of freeing captives, settle the issue between the Stark and the Targaryens with Tyrion's knowledge of history, and then she spirits off the the Riverlands where (maybe) Nymeria is with her pack, reunites with Gendry, gives LS the gift of Mercy and even communicates with Bran. The problem with my desire for her to meet Jon is that he is already "dead" and the Wall alleged to fall now that the NW no longer stands true, as Old Nan would say. Which would the Others invasion begins early in the books. That means no reunion with Jon likely. That's super cruel on GRRM's part. It's also a lot for her to do when this book when there is so much else for GRRM to deal with, Like the Ironborn and the Dance of the Dragons redux. There's also the issue of whether Nymeria has gone North, which could mean only a comparitive stop over in the Riverlands to deal with LS and Gendry, making it to the Wall in time to lead the wildlings South to Winterfell where Bran would be waiting, and fuck, even grab Rickon on Skagos. In general, how she can go to the Wall and the Riverlands at the same time is a serious knot for him. I'm interested to see how he resolves it. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monster’s upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. What is interesting in this “kraken” attack scene is that the thump from the tree forced Arya to fall on one knee painfully, a gesture done before a king. But since bowing down before the king was painful, that might indicate that Arya will not be voluntary in obeying whoever that king is. My favorite scenario for Arya’s return to Westeros is that Bran will send Theon (a kraken) to bring her back and she will have to obey her rightful Lord/King (bending on one knee painfully). She will come to Eastwatch, then Castle Black to meet Jon (different roads-same castle). Then they will hear that Sansa will be again Cersei’s prisoner. She will go south to save Sansa but jon will not be able to aid her. She and perhaps Bran too might have a quarrel with Jon about it. This might be the evolution of George’s original plan to have Cat/Arya coming to the Wall but not being welcome by Jon/Benjen because of the vows of the NW. A stone turned under her foot. She [Dany] stumbled to one knee and cried out in pain, … The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her. … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. This might foreshadow eventual bow down of Dany before Jon (another dragon with "black" blood), which will again be involuntarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 GRRM never denied Arya/Gendry he said they had different destinies apparently.I'm confused why people think GRRM has dropped Arya/Jon. Is it the lack of the 5 year gap? Because textually it is the most set up conclusion. I don't get how people can be so sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravyFace Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I'm torn about this pairing because I love Jon and Arya separately, but as a couple I get completely icked out. I've tried being open minded about it but I just feel it would ruin the end for me if they end up together.As far as it still happening, I think it totally could in the books. There's so many clues and connections GRRM has planted as made obvious in this thread. But I just can't imagine it happening in the show. And I don't see the books and show ending with different brides for Jon. Can you imagine the reaction from the unsullied when little Maisie is paired with Kit who is 10 years older than her, especially considering how young she was when this all started? Even if she's 18 or 19 when this ends, she's always going to be the little girl from season 1. My sister, who hasn't read the books, read GRRM's 1993 letter and she literally gagged out loud at the Jon and Arya portion. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 ^ Yea, I can imagine... What I can't really imagine, is the author changing his story (if, indeed, that's the story he wants to tell) to comport with TV audience sensibilities.I remember him saying that writing is not a democratic process or something along those lines, so... I can't imagine him writing the end of his saga based on a popularity poll or something. Heck, I could even imagine letting this leak just to prepare the ground and let the audience come to terms with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 I'm torn about this pairing because I love Jon and Arya separately, but as a couple I get completely icked out. I've tried being open minded about it but I just feel it would ruin the end for me if they end up together.As far as it still happening, I think it totally could in the books. There's so many clues and connections GRRM has planted as made obvious in this thread. But I just can't imagine it happening in the show. And I don't see the books and show ending with different brides for Jon.Can you imagine the reaction from the unsullied when little Maisie is paired with Kit who is 10 years older than her, especially considering how young she was when this all started? Even if she's 18 or 19 when this ends, she's always going to be the little girl from season 1. My sister, who hasn't read the books, read GRRM's 1993 letter and she literally gagged out loud at the Jon and Arya portion. Lol Wherever this theory works for you or not, making at least an attempt to being open-minded is a good approach. I have hard time imagining it in the show too and I really hope GRRM doesn't change his mind because of it. As for sexuality of young characters I think a lot could be hinted by Sansa's arc next season. The small, most paranoid part of my mind wonders if this could be reason why the letter has been revealed, to soften up and prepare the watchers a little after GRRM revealed to producers where the story will end. I can imagine that it if Jon and Arya was still an endgame they would freak out, because as you said it would upset a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 ... I swear I posted before seeing your post, lol. Good to see I am not the only one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I'm torn about this pairing because I love Jon and Arya separately, but as a couple I get completely icked out. I've tried being open minded about it but I just feel it would ruin the end for me if they end up together.As far as it still happening, I think it totally could in the books. There's so many clues and connections GRRM has planted as made obvious in this thread. But I just can't imagine it happening in the show. And I don't see the books and show ending with different brides for Jon.Can you imagine the reaction from the unsullied when little Maisie is paired with Kit who is 10 years older than her, especially considering how young she was when this all started? Even if she's 18 or 19 when this ends, she's always going to be the little girl from season 1. My sister, who hasn't read the books, read GRRM's 1993 letter and she literally gagged out loud at the Jon and Arya portion. Lol I guarantee you 100% that the show and the books will be different in much else then this and with who ends up with who. The end END will be roughly the same (how Others are dealt with, who from the major characters lives and dies, maybe not even that), but stuff like Jon ends up with Dany in the show and Arya in the books are more than plausible to happen. Or who is to say Jon and Arya are suppose to survive the series. Maybe they die together fighting the good fight, stopping the Whitepocalypse. Maybe in the books they die as a romantic couple, maybe in the show they die as a loving brother and sister(no romance). There are many possibilities. What we know here is that Jon and Arya love each other more than anyone other in the world, they constantly think about each other, compare other people to each other, etc. Now, where that leads is yet unknown, but we now know that George intended them to be in a forbidden type of romance, ick factor or no for the audience, he doesn't care. For crying out loud we had Jaime almost raping his twin sister in front of their dead son!!! That speaks everything we should ever need to know about the author and his willingness to go there. And yet most of us still love Jaime. So analyzing what we have in the books so far and having in mind what he intended for the characters...Let's say our minds should be open to stuff. P.S. To the OP, will other parts come soon? Or are you going to pull a George on us? :P p.p.s And AryaNymeriaVisenya , you never answered my question about the appeal of Arya/Gendry pairing from a few pages back?! You offered to do so in an earlier post... quoting myself: Oh yes, look at that, the avi speaks the tale for you. I have nothing against such pairing. As I said, I don't like Gendry. He embodies some qualities that I really dislike in a person, but the quasi school crush between the two was kind of sweet. What I don't understand is where is the appeal for them in the future? Why "ship" them for the future? Arya is my absolute favorite character in the books. But before the outline I never thought about her potential partner. I was aware of the Queen implications by that most likely forshadowing Ned sentence. I was aware she was the Ugly Duckling that is going to end up as the gracious Swan in future books, but I never concentrated my efforts on her potential romantic partner. Gendry remained a possibility, but never a serious one for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I swear I posted before seeing your post, lol. Good to see I am not the only one LOL, maybe we are twisted dirty minds :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 If it were to still exist, what is the proposed significance? Is it banking on Rickon dying and Jon and Arya continuing the Stark line as KITN/Lord of Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 To the OP, will other parts come soon? Or are you going to pull a George on us? :P Heh :) Thursday is the latest date as I see it, probably sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I guarantee you 100% that the show and the books will be different in much else then this and with who ends up with who. The end END will be roughly the same (how Others are dealt with, who from the major characters lives and dies, maybe not even that), but stuff like Jon ends up with Dany in the show and Arya in the books are more than plausible to happen. Or who is to say Jon and Arya are suppose to survive the series. Maybe they die together fighting the good fight, stopping the Whitepocalypse. Maybe in the books they die as a romantic couple, maybe in the show they die as a loving brother and sister(no romance). There are many possibilities. What we know here is that Jon and Arya love each other more than anyone other in the world, they constantly think about each other, compare other people to each other, etc. Now, where that leads is yet unknown, but we now know that George intended them to be in a forbidden type of romance, ick factor or no for the audience, he doesn't care. For crying out loud we had Jaime almost raping his twin sister in front of their dead son!!! That speaks everything we should ever need to know about the author and his willingness to go there. And yet most of us still love Jaime. So analyzing what we have in the books so far and having in mind what he intended for the characters...Let's say our minds should be open to stuff. P.S. To the OP, will other parts come soon? Or are you going to pull a George on us? :P p.p.s And AryaNymeriaVisenya , you never answered my question about the appeal of Arya/Gendry pairing from a few pages back?! You offered to do so in an earlier post... quoting myself: Sorry, thought it was rhetorical. I think they just fit perfectly, healing the wounds of the past like Rhaella mended relations temporarily after Duncan the small ditched his Baratheon girl. He sees her worth regardless of her gender and treats her the same way as anyone else. He internalises his class issues but he doesnt know his parentage yet so they could still be resolved. There is also the appeal of Arya, the girl with the hands of a blacksmith, falling in love with a blacksmith. The question to prove FArya was about the name of the blacksmith in Winterfell. I also think that in the light of the outline, Arya having been turned away by Gendry as he joins his own order where Lem Lemoncloak says he will 'kiss no princesses' fits with the original intention for Arya to feel abandoned and alone. Other people can put it far better than me though! If it were to still exist, what is the proposed significance? Is it banking on Rickon dying and Jon and Arya continuing the Stark line as KITN/Lord of Winterfell? 'A Time for Wolves'. If the Starks are to win Half Targ Jon and Queen Dany can't be sitting on the throne. Nor can Jon and Val as Jon keeps repeating 'I'm not a Stark'. How can it be a time for Wolves if the 'winning' power is 3/4 dragon or at best 1/4 wolf? GRRM has already set up how Jon can be a Stark 'Boys get the Swords and Girls get the Arms', Jon gives Arya a sword and so Arya 'owes' him the arms that would make him a Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 If it were to still exist, what is the proposed significance? Is it banking on Rickon dying and Jon and Arya continuing the Stark line as KITN/Lord of Winterfell? I can't really tell. I don't think that Jon as a king would continue either the Stark or the Targaryen tradition, I would see him become something more of a parallel to Benedict Justman née Rivers from the WoIaF. The significance of their (non-romantic - so far) relationship has started to pay out by the end of ADWD, with Jon's "death". I don't know what would be the overall contribution in the story, perhaps to lead down to the trason for love? That's only speculation however, without any textual support. We'll have to wait to see, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 If it were to still exist, what is the proposed significance? Is it banking on Rickon dying and Jon and Arya continuing the Stark line as KITN/Lord of Winterfell? The significance may be nothing more than to "bank" on the love that they have for each other that has been shown to us throughout the five books published. Why do the have to be king and queen? ^To the user above: Yes the treason for love! It has been on my mind lately. What if it means that Jon "Targaryen" betrays Dany for Arya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 GRRM never denied Arya/Gendry he said they had different destinies apparently.I'm confused why people think GRRM has dropped Arya/Jon. Is it the lack of the 5 year gap? Because textually it is the most set up conclusion. I don't get how people can be so sureThat, and a general reordering of the plot. Jon and Arya haven't even seen each other since early in AGOT. We're now on the book 5, and it's not even clear that A) they can reunite cause she also has business in the Riverlands and possibly meet-Dany foreshadowing and B. that if they did, they would have time to develop romance. We have almost no canon interactions between them in current time. In order to see this as still in the cards, I would have to believe that Jon and Arya would fall based almost entirely on prepubescent childhood memories i.e. thinking about each other. Whereas Arya and Gendry have a whole book and a half, more than 20 chapters of interactions that have romantic and sexual undertones, as well as just a very strong friendship. They have a love song written for them, they get jealous of each other's possible romantic/sexual interests with other people (Ned and Bella), they flirt and wrestle, and as of AFFC were still thinking about each other. Gendry is also in close proximity to other plot points that Arya has to deal with: LS and Nymeria. Jon's destiny points to a hero's death at the Heart of Winter, far to the North. Arya's lies in Winterfell and the rebirth of House Stark, with Bran and (eventually) Sansa. They're headed in different directions as of ADWD. It does sound gnarly: he and Ghost awaking in the rubble of the Wall, on a suicide march to destroy whatever unfathomable evil lies there and then when it seems like there's no way he can survive, Dany and her dragons join him. I'm also foreseeing Arya and Bran leading armies of ravens, wolves and clansmen from within a besieged Winterfell. Of course, I'm not a prophet. I'm just doing my best with the text that I've got and figuring out what I can based on literary analysis and narrative precedent. That fact that they might not reunite is a real bummer though. (and look, here I am, posting in this thread again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 ^ Why, thank you George for telling us what you are going to do next and how it's going to play out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The significance may be nothing more than to "bank" on the love that they have for each other that has been shown to us throughout the five books published. Why do the have to be king and queen? ^To the user above: Yes the treason for love! It has been on my mind lately. What if it means that Jon "Targaryen" betrays Dany for Arya? An interesting parallel, Sansa betrays Ned's plans to Cersei because she wants to stay in Kings Landing and be Joffrey's Queen. Betraying her family for 'love'. Later Arya says she wouldn't betray Jon to anyone, not even their father. Putting Jon before her other family. It would not be shocking if Jon sides with Arya over his Aunt. That, and a general reordering of the plot. Jon and Arya haven't even seen each other since early in AGOT. We're now on the book 5, and it's not even clear that A) they can reunite cause she also has business in the Riverlands and possibly meet-Dany foreshadowing and B. that if they did, they would have time to develop romance. We have almost no canon interactions between them in current time. In order to see this as still in the cards, I would have to believe that Jon and Arya would fall based almost entirely on prepubescent childhood memories i.e. thinking about each other. Whereas Arya and Gendry have a whole book and a half, more than 20 chapters of interactions that have romantic and sexual undertones, as well as just a very strong friendship. They have a love song written for them, they get jealous of each other's possible romantic/sexual interests with other people (Ned and Bella), they flirt and wrestle, and as of AFFC were still thinking about each other. Gendry is also in close proximity to other plot points that Arya has to deal with: LS and Nymeria. Jon's destiny points to a hero's death at the Heart of Winter, far to the North. Arya's lies in Winterfell and the rebirth of House Stark, with Bran and (eventually) Sansa. They're headed in different directions as of ADWD. It does sound gnarly: he and Ghost awaking in the rubble of the Wall, on a suicide march to destroy whatever unfathomable evil lies there and then when it seems like there's no way he can survive, Dany and her dragons join him. I'm also foreseeing Arya and Bran leading armies of ravens, wolves and clansmen from within a besieged Winterfell. Of course, I'm not a prophet. I'm just doing my best with the text that I've got and figuring out what I can based on literary analysis and narrative precedent. That fact that they might not reunite is a real bummer though. (and look, here I am, posting in this thread again) You can't escape this conundrum, embrace it! I think Arya and Jon will meet again. I think that is heavily implied. Not only 'Different Roads sometimes lead to the same castle' but the continued bond between the two. I'm more certain Jon and Arya will meet again than I am Arya and Gendry will meet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Or Arya sides with Jon over Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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