Catelyn Stark a possible catalyst in changing the tides of war

[devilish]

Another thread got me thinking about Catelyn marrying someone else and the potential of such union to Robb's cause. Many names came in mind. Some were pretty realistic matchups but would have hardly changed the tide of war ( ex Stark's banner men or Mountain clan leaders). Other match ups would have given Robb a fighting a chance but were pretty much impractical (ex Mance Rayner or Balon Greyjoy). Another option would be to use Catelyn as a dignified exit route to end this war once and for all. Tywin was a widower, Catelyn was also a widow and their marriage would have brought peace in Westeros without anyone having to lose his dignity or head in the process

Nevertheless one name spring to mind whose both realistic and had the potential to change the tide of war. Someone whose on one hand was rich, shrewd, ambitious and well connected enough to change the tides of war and on the other hand he loved Catelyn enough to risk everything for her. His name? Littlefinger.

We all know that Littlefinger loves Catelyn. He risked his life to marry her and his love for her had never ceased. He's also rich, something that the cash strapped north would appreciate + Lysa literally adore him to bits. Not to forget that Littlefinger possess that shrewdness that the North lack and he also have inside knowledge about the Lannister plans. In one stroke (actually it would be better to offer him Harrenhal too) Robb could have easily secured the military support of the Vale and who knows he may learn ways how an assassin could reach the tower of the hand undetected or at least how to release Sansa from Lannister hands.

Not to forget that Robb had a characteristic which no other king had ie he couldn't care less who would end up sitting on the iron throne. That's quite significant for two reasons.

a- It would have tickle Littlefinger's ambition enough to switch side. No one can offer him a better deal then being king of the 5-6 other kingdoms and end up married to Cat.

b- it may well act as an incentive for the iron bank to actually finance Robb's quest while bleeding the others to death. We all know how bankers work. They rather invest their money on a financially astute person whom they know very well then some kid or sour warrior who no one likes.

I am aware of Littlefinger's involvement in Eddard's arrest. Nevertheless with the North lost and bannermen deserting him in droves it would have been pretty stupid for Robb to cling to petty grievances

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Cat would never have agreed. Rob could force her 'by royal decree', but I doubt that he would do that, because this would utterly destroy his relationship with his mother.

LF may love Cat with all his heart (or what he claims to be a heart), but the felling is not mutual.

Yes, with such a promise TF would surely switch sides.

On the other hand, do you think Lysa would support LF if he was to wed Cat? I think she would be furious and never forgive him of his betrayal to her. She killed her husband for him. Do you think a mad woman like Lysa would simply say: "I know it is Cat you've always loved, so all is forgiven. Let's be friends and slay those Lannisters, while singing Kumbaya!"

[devilish]

Cat is a Tully. She knows her role and the potential of such alliance. Not to forget that Littlefinger could bring Sansa back to her. That would certainly act as an incentive.

Lysa is not the brightest kid in town so I am pretty confident that Littlefinger and Robb can play her around. Littlefinger may end up marrying Lysa first, he would then convince her to have sweet Robin marrying Sansa only for Lysa to die and Littlefinger to become a widower.

At the end of the day it all depends on Cat's determination in uniting her family and keep them safe. We all know that the she wolf loves her kids.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Sorry, I really don't see this happening in any Westeros fantasy.

Cat is still mourning her loss of Ned, she wants revenge for the death of her 2 youngest sons and wants her daughters to be freed from the Lannisters.

However, Cat is also very aware of LF's character. She knows he cannot be trusted and will do anything to gain power.

Lysa may not be the brighted bulb around, but there's still some lighte in there.

Also, the Tully's words are: Family, duty, honour.

Cat still lives by this mantra. Do you think she will betray/mislead her sister (very close family), even for her children? I do not.

When Cat and Robb are still alive, it is completely uncertain that LF would be able to save Sansa and/or Arya, why betray your sister for that?

I'm out of arguments here. This could never happen. Cat won't betray her sister and haver LF marry her, only to dispose of Lysa and marry LF herself.

It's almost as insane as the Mad King.......

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If Littlefinger truly loved Cat, at the time of the War at least, then he would have influenced Lysa to join the Starks side and never would have negotiated the Tyrell marriage.

He helped stack the cards firmly against the Starks and must have known the chances of Cat being doomed were high.

[Lee-Sensei]

If LF was going to marry Cat, I think his influence over Lysa would dry up right quick. Part of the reason she did what she did was because he promised to marry her.

[devilish]

If Littlefinger truly loved Cat, at the time of the War at least, then he would have influenced Lysa to join the Starks side and never would have negotiated the Tyrell marriage.

He helped stack the cards firmly against the Starks and must have known the chances of Cat being doomed were high.

And what exactly would he achieve by influencing Lysa to join the Starks side? Would Robb allow him to marry his mother? Would he make him Lord? Would he even forget the fact that Littlefinger betrayed his father?

Littlefinger loves Cat but he is not the naive boy who would challenge Brendan to fight for her hand anymore. He knows that there's an enormous social gap between Cat and him and he will never achieve true recognition unless that social gap exist.

Now what would happen if Robb embraced Littlefinger's ambitions rather then fighting against them? Would he switch allegiances? Lets face it, Robb needed Littlefinger (read the previous post). On the other hand the young wolf could offer him two things (the iron throne and Cat) that no one is willing or can offer him.

[devilish]

Sorry, I really don't see this happening in any Westeros fantasy.

Cat is still mourning her loss of Ned, she wants revenge for the death of her 2 youngest sons and wants her daughters to be freed from the Lannisters.

However, Cat is also very aware of LF's character. She knows he cannot be trusted and will do anything to gain power.

Lysa may not be the brighted bulb around, but there's still some lighte in there.

Also, the Tully's words are: Family, duty, honour.

Cat still lives by this mantra. Do you think she will betray/mislead her sister (very close family), even for her children? I do not.

When Cat and Robb are still alive, it is completely uncertain that LF would be able to save Sansa and/or Arya, why betray your sister for that?

I'm out of arguments here. This could never happen. Cat won't betray her sister and haver LF marry her, only to dispose of Lysa and marry LF herself.

It's almost as insane as the Mad King.......

Catelyn betrayed her own son in a bit to have Sansa back. Do you think she wouldn't betray her sister for the same prize? May I remind you that we're talking about someone who prefers sitting around doing nothing rather then commit her forces to fight for her niece's release or at least be present to her father's funeral.

And I am pretty sure that Littlefinger had everything set to have Sansa escape at a moment's notice especially before/during the siege when Sansa was the least of their concern.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Catelyn betrayed her own son in a bit to have Sansa back. Do you think she wouldn't betray her sister for the same prize? May I remind you that we're talking about someone who prefers sitting around doing nothing rather then commit her forces to fight for her niece's release or at least be present to her father's funeral.

And I am pretty sure that Littlefinger had everything set to have Sansa escape at a moment's notice especially before/during the siege when Sansa was the least of their concern.

Yes Cat betrayed her son in a bit, in return for solumn vows from 2 people (honour) to save her daughters (family), she saw this as her duty.

She knows her sister isn't sane, and she realises that having the Vale on the side of the North would make a huge difference.

This doesn't mean she would want to mislead her sister and abuse her sanity. Especially with someone as untrustfull as LF. She knows that LF will only side with those who are the strongest at that moment. She also knows that the North isn;t the strongest at that moment. It is winning battles, but losing the war.

LF would do this without even blinking, he doesn't care, he only wants power. If misleading Lysa is the way to power, by all means (as he has already proven). If he were 'forced' to marry the love of his life, oh well, might as well....

Cat is far more honest and far too proud to completely betray and mislead her family.

[devilish]

If LF was going to marry Cat, I think his influence over Lysa would dry up right quick. Part of the reason she did what she did was because he promised to marry her.

There's nothing to suggest that LF wouldn't be able to first marry Lysa, have sweet Robin marry Sansa and then watch Lysa suffer a tragic 'accident' only for him to marry Cat afterwards.

I doubt that Cat would be in a position to complain too much either. She would get Sansa back, the Vale would provide military backup for Robb's dwingling forces and the chances of Robb's winning the war would increase. May I remind you that by releasing the Kingslayer she had placed Robb into one hell of a bad situation. The least she can do is to atone to her mistake by marrying LF.

My only concern is whether LF would trust Robb. The boy had already broken his promise with Walder Frey. However I am confident that Cat has ways to convince him

[devilish]

Yes Cat betrayed her son in a bit, in return for solumn vows from 2 people (honour) to save her daughters (family), she saw this as her duty.

She knows her sister isn't sane, and she realises that having the Vale on the side of the North would make a huge difference.

This doesn't mean she would want to mislead her sister and abuse her sanity. Especially with someone as untrustfull as LF. She knows that LF will only side with those who are the strongest at that moment. She also knows that the North isn;t the strongest at that moment. It is winning battles, but losing the war.

LF would do this without even blinking, he doesn't care, he only wants power. If misleading Lysa is the way to power, by all means (as he has already proven). If he were 'forced' to marry the love of his life, oh well, might as well....

Cat is far more honest and far too proud to completely betray and mislead her family.

Cat betrayed her son to atone to the most naive plan Westeros had ever seen. Basically it entailed having the Kingslayer crossing entire regions infested with hostile enemies with the sole protection of a woman. If he manages to reach Kingslanding in one piece (which he didn't) then Tyrion would have to convince an entire host of superiors which included his own father Tywin, Mace Tyrell, the King and the Queen regent to release Sansa and send a force strong enough to secure her safety to Robb's camp. Not to forget that there's a big chance that Tyrion is not really interested in releasing Sansa at all. We know that the imp is a good man but Cat doesn't know that.

Why not say that Cat like the majority of mothers can become irrational when her offspring is in danger? Now using this hypothesis as our basis, why wouldn't she betray her sister when she is perfectly aware that the chances of her own children surviving this war is remote? Whom would Cat prefer to see alive Lysa or the rest of her family?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And what exactly would he achieve by influencing Lysa to join the Starks side? Would Robb allow him to marry his mother? Would he make him Lord? Would he even forget the fact that Littlefinger betrayed his father?

Littlefinger loves Cat but he is not the naive boy who would challenge Brendan to fight for her hand anymore. He knows that there's an enormous social gap between Cat and him and he will never achieve true recognition unless that social gap exist.

Now what would happen if Robb embraced Littlefinger's ambitions rather then fighting against them? Would he switch allegiances? Lets face it, Robb needed Littlefinger (read the previous post). On the other hand the young wolf could offer him two things (the iron throne and Cat) that no one is willing or can offer him.

Littlefinger is not the ruler of the Vale, while we know he has considerable influence the people of Westeros, Robb and Cat included, do not. Marrying Cat to Littlefinger does not get the Vale, it may even drastically turn the jealous Lysa against the Starks.

[devilish]

Littlefinger is not the ruler of the Vale, while we know he has considerable influence the people of Westeros, Robb and Cat included, do not. Marrying Cat to Littlefinger does not get the Vale, it may even drastically turn the jealous Lysa against the Starks.

Littlefinger is not the ruler of the vale. However he's got enough influence on Lysa to

a- commit her armies to the Starks

b- have sweet Robin marrying Sansa.

None of these are unreasonable demands and most of these decisions would be backed by the Vale's bannermen

Once Sweet Robin is married to Sansa Stark, Lysa can always suffer an accident which would pave the way for LF to marry his true love.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Littlefinger is not the ruler of the vale. However he's got enough influence on Lysa to

a- commit her armies to the Starks

b- have sweet Robin marrying Sansa.

None of these are unreasonable demands and most of these decisions would be backed by the Vale's bannermen

Once Sweet Robin is married to Sansa Stark, Lysa can always suffer an accident which would pave the way for LF to marry his true love.

Robb and Cat dont know this, we the reader do. You are expecting a huge amount of hindsight from Robb to arrange such a marriage.

If Lysas own sister, uncle, father, brother and nephew cant convince her to join then Robb is not going to think marrying his mother to Littlefinger will.

[Lee-Sensei]

There's nothing to suggest that LF wouldn't be able to first marry Lysa, have sweet Robin marry Sansa and then watch Lysa suffer a tragic 'accident' only for him to marry Cat afterwards.

I doubt that Cat would be in a position to complain too much either. She would get Sansa back, the Vale would provide military backup for Robb's dwingling forces and the chances of Robb's winning the war would increase. May I remind you that by releasing the Kingslayer she had placed Robb into one hell of a bad situation. The least she can do is to atone to her mistake by marrying LF.

My only concern is whether LF would trust Robb. The boy had already broken his promise with Walder Frey. However I am confident that Cat has ways to convince him

In what time? Would they just accept LF's authority? Would they no be suspicious that she died right after LF moved in? And how does LF sneak Sansa out at the height of the war. She was carefully watched dring the war.LF waited until the end of the war and went trough months of planning for it.

[devilish]

In what time? Would they just accept LF's authority? Would they no be suspicious that she died right after LF moved in? And how does LF sneak Sansa out at the height of the war. She was carefully watched dring the war.LF waited until the end of the war and went trough months of planning for it.

Had the Vale accepted LF's authority now? Aren't they already suspicious about Lysa's death? I bet LF will find it easier to convince the Vale bannermen to close an eye or two to Lysa TULLY's death if that means paving the way to an alliance between the Arryns and the Starks (which would also be sealed by marriage). Think about it

a- the Arryns will be married to the King of Noooooorth sister and possible heir to the throne

b- they will finally engage in war alongside historical allies the Starks

c- they'll get rid of the red haired foreign noblewoman whom no one truly like

[Lee-Sensei]

Had the Vale accepted LF's authority now? Aren't they already suspicious about Lysa's death? I bet LF will find it easier to convince the Vale bannermen to close an eye or two to Lysa TULLY's death if that means paving the way to an alliance between the Arryns and the Starks (which would also be sealed by marriage). Think about it

a- the Arryns will be married to the King of Noooooorth sister and possible heir to the throne

b- they will finally engage in war alongside historical allies the Starks

c- they'll get rid of the red haired foreign noblewoman whom no one truly like

1) No. They haven't. LF's still working on it.

2) Lysa Tully Arryn.

3) The Starks are their historical enemies. They became allies more recently. And the Baratheons are too.

[The_lost_arryn19]

First off only 3 bannermen left Robb and one only left because he cut off their lords head and another was doing it on the down low. People

On this forum try to exaggerate and dramatize Robb's situation but had not roose betrayed him at the red wedding he would've made it back north(his strategy to get the north back was very sound and would have worked). Once he made it north and no civil war in the north is going on because roose doesn't betray and every other lord is amazingly loyal he's sitting pretty. But on cats remarrying there are only few options that are really available. Tywin would be the best match and only really could be used as a peace broker. The only other lord I can think of is mallister. He's a powerful lord and would secure the river lands who were already very loyal to Robb excluding walder Frey. I really can't think of any more realistic options.

[John Suburbs]

There is also the fact that LF was too low of station for Cat until he became Lord Paramount of the Trident, which happened right after the Blackwater. Between then and the Red Wedding, there was no way to broker a match because there was no communication between Stark or Baelish -- unless, yes, they wanted to relay a message through Lysa.

[Good Guy Garlan]

There is also the fact that LF was too low of station for Cat until he became Lord Paramount of the Trident, which happened right after the Blackwater. Between then and the Red Wedding, there was no way to broker a match because there was no communication between Stark or Baelish -- unless, yes, they wanted to relay a message through Lysa.

I honestly can't think of a more awkward situation

"Lysa, it's Petyr. Can you tell your sister that I'm single and ready to mingle? Thanks, sweetheart. Oh, and by the way, tell her that the Lannisters took the lordship of the Trident from your father and gave it to me. Ok, bye bye."