The "Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part II ASOS & ADWD

[BearQueen87]

A Dance with Dragons, Prologue

Abomination. Abomination. Abomination.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this! One of those weeks...

This was a really nice job Dark Sister!

So far, only those descended from the First Men have the ability to skinchange and warg. There seems to be a genetic marker in that bloodline that allows the Old God’s to give the gift to those descendants as they see fit. The First Men worshiped the Old God’s as did the Children of the Forest. The Old God’s sent the direwolves to the Stark children, as protectors and perhaps to hurry along their training. With the wolves came the ability to enter their mind and wear their skin. The Starks are not alone in their gift. Aside from Varamyr and his mentor Haggon there is also Orell, Borroq, Grisella and the other nameless attendants of the gathering.

I think this is one of those cases in which the readers know more than the people in-universe. For example, Varamyr believes that the Old Gods gave him and others the power of Warg--but the readers know that the Old Gods are really just the Greenseers of the COTF. Whether or not they have the power to bestow upon anyone the gift of warging is debatable. It seems to be a gift that some of them have, while others do not.

So where does the gift come from? Well. It's just magic, right? The whole world is surrounded by magic--fire magic, ice magic, death and life magic, natural magic. I think the ability to warg is something mankind stumbled into and made their own--sort of like the Valyrians stumbled into fire magic and were able to join their blood with the blood of dragons and bond them. I don't necessarily think that the comes from anyone--god or otherwise. In fact, I doubt that GRRM has literal gods (except the Old Ones/Deep Ones in Lorath and Leng, ect but who knows what GRRM's plan for THAT is).

It is safe to assume that the women Varamyr sent his shadowcat after would be wildlings with the blood of the First Men

Yes there is a question of warging and the First Men, I agree. You're right that it seems to be isolated to anyone descended from the First Men but it's not ALL the First Men families, though. For example, Jorah Mormont never wargs into an animal, but he and his family are descended from First Men. Also, we learned in the World Book that Aegon V married a Blackwood, someone descended from the First Men (and Bloodraven's family more to the point) yet Rhaegar nor Viserys had the ability. Whether or not Dany has a wags ability we don't know, though she obviously has a unique gift with animals, both her silver and her dragons, Drogon specifically. So is it genetics or is that certain families are more strongly linked to magic--which might be genetics...?

The Stark children are wargs. The can enter the mind of their direwolves. Bran & Arya seem to be skinchangers as well, meaning they can enter other minds as evidenced by Bran entering Hodor and the heavy implication that Arya saw through the eyes of a cat in Bravos.

And why those five children (six since I include Jon)? We have no evidence that Lyanna, Brandon, Ned nor Ben were wargs--though Lyanna was "more horse" than girl, and Brandon was equally skilled in horse riding. Is it just because magic is growing stronger? If magic got a bit of a reboot with the birth of Rhaegar (something I believe and something I think we'll learn more about once we finally get more details on Summerhall) then did the universe need to balance itself out--but had to wait for Stark children to be born (since Brandon, Ned, Lyanna were born and Ben wasn't...I don't know...magical enough). Bah. I'm sitting here trying to balance a magic equation like it's real math. But if it goes like this (bear with me)

Rhaegar born : fire magic gets a big helping since he was "the last dragon" (pre-Dany)

Others awaken from slumber : ice magic gets a big helping.

The two forces of ice and fire and playing with each other fighting for dominance and years down the road we get the False Spring in which it looks like spring has arrived but in reality it has not.

R and L run off together, Brandon dies.

Technically ice and fire still somewhat in balance?

Rhaegar dies. Lose of fire magic.

Jon is born. Is he even a factor since he's the Great Balance?

Robb and the other Stark Children are born. Ice magic (especially with Bran)

Dany is born in the middle of all of the above (fire magic supreme mugwump)

My brain hurts.

My point is that if ASOIAF is largely about balance and finding balance then the Stark children being wargs has to have some sort of narrative purpose other than exploration of what it means to be a warg. Something to do with the overall story of ice and fire.

The line about the children on the back of the elk was a clever nod to Bran & Co.

Totally. I keep forgetting that V6S sees Bran and Co.

This gives a good indication that The Others have a similar way of collecting information about their foe and to use it against them. We know that the wights that attacked Lord Commander Mormont seemed to know where his chambers were.

Slightly OT but relevant...can the Others warg?

She’s not in the habit of burning all birds she comes across in her travels.

I dunno...lol. She's pretty looney. I wouldn't put it past Mistress Fire All The Things.

Mel being a red priestess and Jojen having the gift of sight suggests that it isn’t just a warg knowing the presence of another warg but magic being able to recognize magic.

Yes, I agree. Magic calls to magic.

So much information in here but some of the validity must be questioned. Right off the bat there’s the warning of cats. Varamyr had a shadowcat. Though not exactly the same, they are both felines and share enough common traits to suggest that issues with skinchanging a cat or shadowcat would yield the same difficulties. Readers see an eagle, plenty of crows and ravens, a cat, a shadowcat, a bear and quite possibly an elk all being controlled by skinchangers. Haggon is not correct but not completely wrong either. It would make sense that those that had stronger gifts could better enter the mind of more difficult creatures and thus the difficulties experienced with those animals would be lessened.

If Magic calls to and recognizes magic then I think it's very possible that Haggon was trying to keep V6S from becoming too powerful. He probably recognized how powerful V6S was and decided that for Haggon's and V6S safety, it would be best to keep a lid on that power. And it's not like Haggon was wrong in that, either. V6S did eat his heart in the end and deny him a second life.

Fearlessness, that’s quite a trait. The Night’s King was said to have lived utterly without fear. Perhaps he was a warg and therefore had no fear of man?

If Old Nan was right and the NK was a Stark, then yes I'd be shocked if he wasn't a Warg.

Though only the god’s know the reasons, the rules seem to be necessary and logical. No cannibalism, no bestiality and no mind control. Any possible exceptions or bending of these rules comes down to necessity.

I think a lot of that is just "keeping order." Those aren't just Old Gods or Warg laws. They're basic human laws. Southern, Northern, East, West, Old Gods, New Gods, Fire Gods, Water Gods, atheism. Those are pretty standard.

Um, why?

I just laughed so hard I spit water out of my nose.

What is the purpose of being present in the mind of the female wolf during mating? Once could be chalked up to perverse curiosity but Varamyr did it “often”. Mating while in the mind of an animal does not net any gain or fulfill any purpose

To each their own!

Lol. No, I think it has more to do with experience. V6S wants to know everything there is about warging and being inside the mind of an animal. Knowledge is power, as they say. V6S keeps doing these things Haggon labels as abominations for the same reason a child put their hand on a hot stove after we tell them not to--curiosity. Now as to why he kept doing it...I dunno.

Thanks! I actually think the "old god's" are the CotF but I didn't want to confuse things and get too far into crackpot territory. Mainly bc I do believe that the direwolves were specifically sent to the Stark kiddos by someone/thing.

I think there is an interesting question about how we should define godhood and divinity. We'd say that the Old Gods are not "gods" just COTF who have the ability to greensee. But...is that not something akin to divinity? Our problem is really that we live almost exclusively in a monotheistic Judo-Christian (doesn't matter if you're a believer or not) and have defined God by our own standards, whether or not you believe is irrelevant. When we say God we have an imagine or set of concepts that instantly spring to mind and anything outside of that is instantly "not god."

But think about what these Old Gods can do...they can see the past, the present, and in some cases (like BR) they appear to have some knowledge of the future. We call that omniscience and it literally means all knowing. It's a trait directly associated with "GOD." The Old Gods seems to be able to fight off the Others or at least help men like Sam fight them off. They are able to ward their houses against Wights. They, with the help of men, brought (supposedly) the Dawn at the end of the First Long Night. Sounds rather omnipotent to me. Again, another characteristic we associate with "GOD.'

So I agree that the COTF are not gods, but when we say that are we talking into account the fact that we have a rather rigid interpretation for what does constitute god?

Misc Notes

1. Second life is incredibly important given the status of wunderboy Jon Snow at the end of ADWD. "That would be a second life worthy of a king" AKA: hey look everyone! Jon Snow's direwolf is his familiar and if Jon were to ever "die" and go into his wolf, his second life would be like a king. I mean I'm sure this has nothing to do with who his parents are! I'm sure there is nothing to read into this!"

(cough R+L = Legit J cough)

2. The Woods Witch Mother Mole...COTF or Not? We've seen one other "woods witch," the Ghost of High Heart who is absolutely a COTF and present at Summerhall thanks to Jenny of Oldstones (seriously, how did those two met? Fate? Magic? Happenstance?)

[MoIaF]

Thanks! I actually think the "old god's" are the CotF but I didn't want to confuse things and get too far into crackpot territory. Mainly bc I do believe that the direwolves were specifically sent to the Stark kiddos by someone/thing. The numbers and genders were just too perfect to not be. The Children worshipped the earth and all things nature and when the FM came the CotF took on the role of deities in order to help reign in their destruction and keep the weirwoods as mechanisms to watch over the strangers.

Cool - so we're on the same page. I suspect that the direwolves were sent to the Children by Bloodraven. By what we have discussing he was very keen on Bran awakening his power so it would seem that he helped initiate that awakening with the "gift" of the direwolves.

Whether or not they're the ones that actually bestow the gift is definitely something open to discussion. I see what you mean about the increase in magic, but that doesn't explain why those with parents strong in the gift wouldn't get it, like Varamyrs kids. Wouldn't an increase in magic increase the gift all over? I think not giving the gift to Varamyrs offspring was punishment for him. They couldn't take back the gift he had so they kept it from his kids in hopes of avoiding them turning out like him. It's a crapshoot...give it to one, see how they do with it and then decide whether or not to give it to their offspring.

Well, I think that the increase in magic plus the gift of the direwolves (magical creature themselves) were the trigger to awakening the Stark kids abilities.

The Children could certainly deprive V6SK kids from the latter, the obviously can't control the increase in magic but they can probably control the trigger whatever that may be. It seems that the trigger might depend on the person or the line. Descendents of the First Men may have the genetic marker but it might vary from family to family. Like the Stark seem to be one of the few to be wargs.

This is my interpretation but it can certainly be wrong. We have so little information as is.

I like your take on the rules being set forth as a moral sense by the skinchangers of old. Not to get into a theological debate but that's what I believe about the religious books in RL.

I sure hope the site continues to cooperate, I've been missing these! :)

OMG - the website wouldn't let me in until this morning. So annoying. But, let us hope.

Regarding the rules, I think GRRM might have modeled that after RL religion as you say. It's a natural thing for societies to do.

[BearQueen87]

Cool - so we're on the same page. I suspect that the direwolves were sent to the Children by Bloodraven. By what we have discussing he was very keen on Bran awakening his power so it would seem that he helped initiate that awakening with the "gift" of the direwolves.

Chicken v egg question and not necessarily one with an answer.

Would the Stark Children be Wargs if BR hadn't sent them the wolves? Or would their power lay dormant since they never had their true familiars?

[MoIaF]

Chicken v egg question and not necessarily one with an answer.

Would the Stark Children be Wargs if BR hadn't sent them the wolves? Or would their power lay dormant since they never had their true familiars?

In reality, who knows!

But, if I had to wager a guess I would say that the ability would have probably laid dormant because the direwolves seemed to me to be the trigger that awoken their abilities. I think the trigger is important.

I sometimes wondered whether Dany received her first dragon dream when Illyrio decided he would give her the dragon eggs as a wedding gifts. I don't how that would work but I think there has to be a trigger of sorts.

[BearQueen87]

In reality, who knows!

But, if I had to wager a guess I would say that the ability would have probably laid dormant because the direwolves seemed to me to be the trigger that awoken their abilities. I think the trigger is important.

I sometimes wondered whether Dany received her first dragon dream when Illyrio decided he would give her the dragon eggs as a wedding gifts. I don't how that would work but I think there has to be a trigger of sorts.

Or maybe when the dragon eggs entered the city, as brought by the Red Priest who attends the wedding? It would be a nice parallel to the wolves "entering" the scene of WF and the ability awakening

[DarkSister1001]

Ok, so I seemed to have lost the ability to quote & copy & paste. Fantastic. Bear with me here...

BQ - Can the Others warg? I think they're skinchangers. I think the animals they ride and the wights are all being controlled by the Others via the same gift as Varamyr, Bran, BR, etc. Especially since the world Book said it was likely they were a tribe of the FM. V watching himself race ahead and jumping from animal to animal gives a good idea of how strong his gift is. I strongly suspect that the strength of the Others' ability is matched only by BR (if BR even comes close). We've seen too little of both BR & Others to be able to truly compare them. I'm basing that on BR skinchanging ravens, Old Mormont's raven, the cat in KL, CH, the elk, etc all while keeping 1001 eyes on the realm and teaching Bran. He's a busy dude and he's only been at this a few decades. The Others have had centuries to hone and strengthen their skills. I'm rambling, sorry.

I didn't even consider that Haggon was trying to reign in Varamyr. Good thinking. He may have realized how powerful V was and geared his training towards keeping him from being an ahole. Especially if Vs dad told Haggon how they found out. Or Haggon's gift was weak and his teachings were limited by his own skill.

And sorry about the impromptu nasal flush. I had a hard time seguing that part. It was either that or WTF V?! Nasty!

MoIaF - Seems like we are on the same page. :)

I think the answer to the chicken or the egg question lies with Sansa. I think her gift is coming along very SLOWLY. And I think the strength of their capabilities is dependent on a few factors, location and situations. Sansa is the only Stark kiddo with a dead wolf, but she seemed to have a "warg moment" when she connected to WF during her blackout in the Vale pre-snowcastle. Arya can still connect with Nymeria despite the long distances between them and it seems to be getting stronger (I blame that on the "magic" in the HoBW). Robb kept Grey Wind by his side (cept when it mattered most) but for the most part but he was down south and magic is stronger up North and closer to the Wall. John has been at the Wall and all around it but fighting his true nature and goes spans without Ghost. Bran always has Summer with him, his regular death-defying situations seem to push him to strengthen his skills and he's way up North. In short, I think that they all had the gift and the direwolves moved them along more quickly since they have the bond. Except for Bran, the remaining Stark kids all seem to be missing something necessary to progress quickly. And Rickon, god's know what he's been up to.

[BearQueen87]

Ok, so I seemed to have lost the ability to quote & copy & paste. Fantastic. Bear with me here...

BQ - Can the Others warg? I think they're skinchangers. I think the animals they ride and the wights are all being controlled by the Others via the same gift as Varamyr, Bran, BR, etc. Especially since the world Book said it was likely they were a tribe of the FM. V watching himself race ahead and jumping from animal to animal gives a good idea of how strong his gift is. I strongly suspect that the strength of the Others' ability is matched only by BR (if BR even comes close). We've seen too little of both BR & Others to be able to truly compare them. I'm basing that on BR skinchanging ravens, Old Mormont's raven, the cat in KL, CH, the elk, etc all while keeping 1001 eyes on the realm and teaching Bran. He's a busy dude and he's only been at this a few decades. The Others have had centuries to hone and strengthen their skills. I'm rambling, sorry.

Ramble away. BR's ability is...strangely strong. His blood isn't "pure First Men" nor is it Stark, which we normally associate the most with First Men--or at least the strongest of the First Men, I guess. BR is Blackwood and Targ. I wonder if that plays a part in why he's so strong. He's (diluted) ice and Fire. Dany is even more (diluted) ice and Fire. Jon is Pure Ice and Pure Fire. Might be something to toy with someday....

I didn't even consider that Haggon was trying to reign in Varamyr. Good thinking. He may have realized how powerful V was and geared his training towards keeping him from being an ahole. Especially if Vs dad told Haggon how they found out. Or Haggon's gift was weak and his teachings were limited by his own skill.

Let's play a game! Who's "I discovered I was a warg" story is worse: V6S or Bran?

In short, I think that they all had the gift and the direwolves moved them along more quickly since they have the bond. Except for Bran, the remaining Stark kids all seem to be missing something necessary to progress quickly. And Rickon, god's know what he's been up to.

Sansa is a perfect case study, well spotted! The abilities likely would have manifested but only in a much more mild manner. But with their wolves: watch out!

[DarkSister1001]

Ramble away. BR's ability is...strangely strong. His blood isn't "pure First Men" nor is it Stark, which we normally associate the most with First Men--or at least the strongest of the First Men, I guess. BR is Blackwood and Targ. I wonder if that plays a part in why he's so strong. He's (diluted) ice and Fire. Dany is even more (diluted) ice and Fire. Jon is Pure Ice and Pure Fire. Might be something to toy with someday....

Blackwood's are from FM so that part makes sense, but I have to guess that his targ blood makes him strong too. There's definitely magic in that line. Remind me...where does Dany get her "ice"?

Bran is by far the strongest in the gift of his siblings (& cousin). I wonder if Jon will eventually surpass him. Or if they will be equals since Bran is being trained and has been at it for longer.

[Tijgy]

I don't completely agree with the idea: the old gods = (currently) greenseers. I believe it is a little more complicated. (I might have understand your ideas wrong)

(I hope this idea make sense ;-) )

I believe the old gods are the collective of all green seers, children who went into the weir wood trees when they died or (maybe even the collective of all what lived during in history who went into the animals, earth, trees, ...)

In V6S we get an idea what happens what you die or at least what happens when a warg and what the free folks believe what happens when you die.

"Your a little one is with the gods now," the woods witch told his mother, as she wept. He'll never hurt again, never hunger, never cry. The gods have taken him down into the earth, into the threes. The gods are all around us, in the rocks and streams, in the birds and beasts. Your bump has gone to join them. He'll be the world and that's in it"

And when V6S dies, it is described what actually happens when he died:

For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, (...) Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between the trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. (...) searching for his own, for One eye, Sly, and Stalker; for his pack.

The V6S chapter made me believe that everything is connected. Wargs and greenseers are the ones who are able to manipulate that connection by making bonds with animals or trees when they are still alive. They are able to go inside an another creature when they are still alive.

Other people are not able to do that. However when they die, their spirits are no longer attached to the body and become part of the nature. When they do that, those spirits are however so divided they are no longer recognizable.

It is different for the skinchangers and the greenseers. Because their already existing connection with an animal, they go inside the animal. When greenseers die, they become part of the weirnetwork.

In the cave there are lot of Children who are also enthroned in weirwood roots. (They are no greenseers, no?) By doing that, I think the Children are trying to make a connection with the weirwoords. I think they believe that when they die they also will become part of weirwood network.

The old gods in their religion are then all those collective spirits who went into the weirwood with their memories, wisdom, ...

(On the wiki I even found a quote saying: "The children of the forest believe that the weirwood trees were the gods and when they die they become part of the godhood".

The greenseers are the ones who are able to access the network or saying in more religiously are the ones who are able to speak to the gods.

I think you can even go further: the weirwood network is in fact connected with all the other trees, living things, and the dead things who went in the end insight the world/nature. So by accessing the network, you can access all the world and the whole collective of all natural things?

I hope this make any sense.

Who did gave the direwolves to Stark Children? Who are the ones who punish people? Are the greenseer(s)? Or maybe the old gods as the entire collective?

If you believe only the greenseers are the ones who do that, it always goes back to BR because was he not the last greenseer. Or maybe after they died into the weirwood network, those dead greenseers (and children) have maybe still power to influence what is going on?

Edit: Amazing job Dark Sister

And I really loved that chapter

[MoIaF]

Blackwood's are from FM so that part makes sense, but I have to guess that his targ blood makes him strong too. There's definitely magic in that line. Remind me...where does Dany get her "ice"?

Bran is by far the strongest in the gift of his siblings (& cousin). I wonder if Jon will eventually surpass him. Or if they will be equals since Bran is being trained and has been at it for longer.

Dany's great grandmother was a Blackwood and with there being no other outside introduction to the genetic pool after her it increases the likelyhood of Dany inheriting some of the FM genes.

I doubt Jon would ever become as strong as Bran. Bran is a greenseer the strongest of the skinchangers, I don't see Jon going down that route.

[BearQueen87]

I don't completely agree with the idea: the old gods = (currently) greenseers. I believe it is a little more complicated. (I might have understand your ideas wrong)

(I hope this idea make sense ;-) )

I believe the old gods are the collective of all green seers, children who went into the weir wood trees when they died or (maybe even the collective of all what lived during in history who went into the animals, earth, trees, ...)

In V6S we get an idea what happens what you die or at least what happens when a warg and what the free folks believe what happens when you die.

I agree with that. Though, worth pointing out that the current greenseer(s) use the collective hive for themselves so you might call them Gods-By-Proxy

Dany's great grandmother was a Blackwood and with there being no other outside introduction to the genetic pool after her it increases the likelyhood of Dany inheriting some of the FM genes.

I doubt Jon would ever become as strong as Bran. Bran is a greenseer the strongest of the skinchangers, I don't see Jon going down that route.

I don't think Jon will be as powerful a greenseer as Bran either. Though Jon does have his own prophetic ancestor in Daenys the Dreamer. It's not completely analogous but visions of future seem to be tied to tapping into magic, wieirwood and prophecy alike. I do think Jon will be able to tap into some aspects of magic that only he can tap into. As for skinchanging, Bran and Jon might be more equal in that regard---Bran has just been trained early on and his gift is certainly more developed but remember that it was Jon who "heard" Ghost that day in the woods before Bran was connected to Summer at all.

[MoIaF]

I agree with that. Though, worth pointing out that the current greenseer(s) use the collective hive for themselves so you might call them Gods-By-Proxy

I don't think Jon will be as powerful a greenseer as Bran either. Though Jon does have his own prophetic ancestor in Daenys the Dreamer. It's not completely analogous but visions of future seem to be tied to tapping into magic, wieirwood and prophecy alike. I do think Jon will be able to tap into some aspects of magic that only he can tap into. As for skinchanging, Bran and Jon might be more equal in that regard---Bran has just been trained early on and his gift is certainly more developed but remember that it was Jon who "heard" Ghost that day in the woods before Bran was connected to Summer at all.

Well, Jon isn't a greenseer at all, that's Bran. As for skinchanging Bran as a greenseer will always be more powerful than Jon, it comes with the title. :)

As wargs (their bonds with their wolves) they probably are equal, although Jon might have a stronger connection to Ghost than Bran to Summer, being as you said, he heard him and connected to him before any of his siblings.

Jon having a strong warging gift will be very important when he finds himself in Ghost in the next book. Most other skinchangers would probably turn more animal by spending so much time in their familiars while Jon with his strong warging ability will probably retain much of himself.

[BearQueen87]

Well, Jon isn't a greenseer at all, that's Bran. As for skinchanging Bran as a greenseer will always be more powerful than Jon, it comes with the title. :)

lol you're right. *BQ drinks more coffee to wake up brain*

(though I do wonder if one of them or both of them might skin change a dragon at some point--be it of the icy or fiery nature)

Jon having a strong warging gift will be very important when he finds himself in Ghost in the next book. Most other skinchangers would probably turn more animal by spending so much time in their familiars while Jon with his strong warging ability will probably retain much of himself.

That's true; I think Jon might have one chapter of Ghost-Puppy-Jon (I dunno, peeing on trees and stuff?) and the chapter ends with Jon remembering. It does speak to his ability, like you said, and it also speaks to the fact that Jon isn't "broken" the same way Bran is. For Bran, being in Summer isn't literally saving his life (like it is with Jon after Stabby McStaberson got...stabby) but it's a release from his current reality which he finds so hard to accept. Jon's body might be full of holes but at least when he comes back to it, after some recovery time, he'll still be Jon Snow, able to fight and walk. Bran's return to his own body is a reminder of his own brokenness.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

snip

A bit late, but thanks for the great analysis darksister!

Most of what I was going to say has already been said, so I just wanted to comment about this part of the chapter.

Thistle into a wight

It wasn't completely clear how Thistle became a wight. From the chapter all we know is that

1. Thistle comes to warn Varamyr that wights are coming

Varamyr wargs Thistle

Both their spirits fight for dominance

Everything goes white

Varamyr's spirit seems to rise and Thistle's body continues to go mad

And then suddenly she is described as a wight

Im not sure how this happened, from the first chapter in AGOT we saw that a wight was produced after a human was killed by a white walker but Thistle here turns into a wight in a whole different way. Does this mean wights are also formed after a warg dies in a human he has warged?

[BearQueen87]

A bit late, but thanks for the great analysis darksister!

Most of what I was going to say has already been said, so I just wanted to comment about this part of the chapter.

Thistle into a wight

It wasn't completely clear how Thistle became a wight. From the chapter all we know is that

1. Thistle comes to warn Varamyr that wights are coming

Varamyr wargs Thistle

Both their spirits fight for dominance

Everything goes white

Varamyr's spirit seems to rise and Thistle's body continues to go mad

And then suddenly she is described as a wight

Im not sure how this happened, from the first chapter in AGOT we saw that a wight was produced after a human was killed by a white walker but Thistle here turns into a wight in a whole different way. Does this mean wights are also formed after a warg dies in a human he has warged?

That's a really great question; it's not made clear either because V6S has fled the scene so we don't see it or because something else is happening to Thistle that will matter later on in the books.

In AGOT prologue the NW man becomes a wight after being killed by a WW. But in AGOT, Jon finds a fellow NW man who died and rises as a wight, but it seems to be a on a delay (whereas in the prologue is happens almost right away) and we aren't sure if a WW killed that man. In this case, there are no Others to kill Thistle, V6S does it (more or less) and still she becomes a wight.

Is it just that there are many different ways to become wights but they are all wights regardless of how that happened? Or is there something that differentiates them based on the method of wight-ing.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That's a really great question; it's not made clear either because V6S has fled the scene so we don't see it or because something else is happening to Thistle that will matter later on in the books.

In AGOT prologue the NW man becomes a wight after being killed by a WW. But in AGOT, Jon finds a fellow NW man who died and rises as a wight, but it seems to be a on a delay (whereas in the prologue is happens almost right away) and we aren't sure if a WW killed that man. In this case, there are no Others to kill Thistle, V6S does it (more or less) and still she becomes a wight.

Nice catch on Jon in AGOT, I completely forgot about that too. So I think it's highly possible that wights rise regardless of being killed by an other or a human.

Is it just that there are many different ways to become wights but they are all wights regardless of how that happened? Or is there something that differentiates them based on the method of wight-ing.

I think it's a mixture of both questions and that there are different ways to become wights and each way determines what type of wight the person will become,

I went back to see the meaning of the word wight in fantasy, and the general definition seems to be "corpses with part of their decayed souls in residence"

I think when Thistle died her soul may have not gone out completely because of the presence of Varamyr?

I've also seen another argument on the board by wolfmaid7 that has to do with some form of presence known as the "cold", which I think is a really good argument. This quote for example:

She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood.

[BearQueen87]

Nice catch on Jon in AGOT, I completely forgot about that too. So I think it's highly possible that wights rise regardless of being killed by an other or a human.

So is it location then? We haven't seen Wights south of the wall, though we've seen thousands die. If the Wall is constructed out of spells as well as literal frozen water ice, then it could be that whatever is in the air north of the wall that turns men into wights is being kept out by said Wall. The wight Jon and co found and brought back to Castle Black gives me pause, though, since the wight didn't go full on Wight until he was inside the Wall (I can't remember, though, where was the guy being kept...?)

I've also seen another argument on the board by wolfmaid7 that has to do with some form of presence known as the "cold", which I think is a really good argument. This quote for example:

She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood.

Perhaps the magic that Wightifies men at death is coming from the Heart of Winter?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So is it location then? We haven't seen Wights south of the wall, though we've seen thousands die. If the Wall is constructed out of spells as well as literal frozen water ice, then it could be that whatever is in the air north of the wall that turns men into wights is being kept out by said Wall. The wight Jon and co found and brought back to Castle Black gives me pause, though, since the wight didn't go full on Wight until he was inside the Wall (I can't remember, though, where was the guy being kept...?)

Perhaps the magic that Wightifies men at death is coming from the Heart of Winter?

That makes a whole lot of sense. :bowdown:

I'm leaning toward this theory now.

On the last bit I'll double check in AGOT

[DarkSister1001]

Thanks T & QA!

MoIaF - I forgot about that. Thanks!

T - I like your take on the old gods, I could def see that being the case.

Ygritte tells Jon that the Free Folk burn their dead. Tormund tells Jon that the WWs are everywhere, even if you can't see them. Maybe if someone dies in proximity to a WW or a wight they turn... and the more that die the larger that "hot zone" becomes.

Or... I'm going to cross the streams here...perhaps everyone north of the Wall is already infected, a la Walking Dead style.

[Loic]

quick update: quite busy at the moment, will post the ADwD - Bran I analysis either tomorrow or on 3rd may, since in my country there's a brief moment holidays and I'll be far away from the pc.

Sincere apologies for the inconvenience.