chrisdaw Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It seems I've not been concise enough in my OP. This topic assumes a second Dance, that Dany will defeat Aegon and be hated by Westeros. For those that see it this way, where do you think it is leading? Hated Dany defeats Aegon for the throne, then what? Where does it culminate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Who says she is reviled? Nobody has heard of her except for game players in westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Narrative reason? Contrast. She is worshipped in Essos but it's very different place with bigger problems socially. Their champion is the high septon right now and he is likely team Aegon. Also I don't see how she can bring Dothraki to westeros and be loved, you know how they live in Essos. It's not peaceful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It seems most people are on board with there being a second Dance between Aegon and Dany and that Dany will defeat/kill Aegon. Most I think then see Dany becoming queen, a hated queen as per the many reasons which have been discussed in numerous topics. All well and good. To me, it is as obvious as all that above, that the next step is that Dany be wholly rejected by Westeros, that she will be betrayed by those closest to her, isolated and be forced to flee KL when the common citizen rises up against her, Rhaenyra style. It doesn't seem like this is a common thought. My question is why? If her being hated in Westeros is not leading towards the people turning on her and ousting her, why is GRRM preparing this perception? What role is it to play?It would be incredibly stupid for the people of Westeros to rise up against her. They will have much bigger fish to fry when the Others finally make their move. Dany would be very useful to aid in the war for dawn. I don't think the line about Jon wanting a dragon or 3 to help the wall was put in there for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Narrative reason? Contrast. She is worshipped in Essos but it's very different place with bigger problems socially. Their champion is the high septon right now and he is likely team Aegon. Also I don't see how she can bring Dothraki to westeros and be loved, you know how they live in Essos. It's not peacefulContrast for contrast sake? Where does it lead? She will just rule and her reign be endured until the Jon endgame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafkeeper Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Personally I find the idea of a second dance unconvincing and I have no idea where people are getting this "Rejected by Westeros" crap. Presumably the same place get the "Dany is an incompetent, mad psycho" crap. The same place all crap comes from Their arseholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Hmm... My idea is that as a writer, it's interesting to challenge the viewer on their preconceived notions and unilateral thinking. Dany is presented to us as a young woman surmounting obstacles on the way to her destiny. Becoming the beloved Queen who will save westeros and "right all the wrongs". Most importantly, Dany sees herself that way. The narrative impetus would be the challenge of that assumption. This series has taught us that one person's hero is another person's tyrant. The reader is first presented with a sad state of affairs in the 7K that makes them think wistfully about a Targaryen rule under a legitimate Targaryen ruler (upon further analysis some change their minds and some are even more convinced). We start to somehow buy into the idea that blood really means something wrt to leadership and aptitude even though really the story shows us how shallow the veneer is and how futile the exercise in blood preservation is. If Aegon is fake and is a more acceptable notion, then is it really a good thing for Dany to be "a slayer of lies"? Is she serving the Realm or herself? Most importantly, it is possible for someone to think of themselves as a hero saving others when really they are pursuing a self-driven desire which will ignore what the people "being saved" want. Someone coming in to disturb the fragile equilibrium built would certainly come across as a cruel tyrant. Now, that would only be interesting to me if Dany remains well intentioned and she -and us with her- experience the turmoil of being misunderstood and starts doubting whether those people are right and then realises that it's not the case. I can see it happening. She certainly isn't a great prospect for the 7K people what with a menacing (although untrue) reputation, unsavoury companions, limited knowledge of the 7K and armies from foreign lands, some of whom were slaves. All she has going for her are the Dragons, Selmy and being Rhaegar's sister.* Personally, I am of the mind that it's stupid for Dany and Aegon to fight. Dany's wish isn't about being ruler of the world, it's not ambition for ambition's sake à la LF. Regardless of whether Aegon is fake or not, he can be an ally and an asset. She can keep the suspicion of his falsehood for if he starts to go off the rails. She wants to reestablish her family's dynasty as she feels it was unjustly taken from them. If he's real, him being family would be a positive, and more importantly, she believes herself to be barren (although her time in the desert seems to be hinting at the opposite). She needs an acceptable heir, she doesn't need to marry him she can make him her heir.He needs credibility towards his claim, Dany (and her dragons) accepting him would be in his advantage so that should help with him keeping his attitude in check. I think she should evaluate his capacities as a ruler, learn more about Westeros, wait until her position and perception as a ruler is stable and positive and then make a decision if he needs to be disposed of. She can use the tendency of men to not take her seriously to her advantage. He seems impetuous and a bit of a brat so he would totally try to prove himself and I'm sure there will be quite a few battles before they are uniformly accepted. I mean, accidents happen right? She tried to reason with him and he just wanted to go. *I am not talking about her actual qualifications and competence as a ruler, just the perception that people in the 7K would have of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Personally, I am of the mind that it's stupid for Dany and Aegon to fight. Dany's wish isn't about being ruler of the world, it's not ambition for ambition's sake à la LF. Regardless of whether Aegon is fake or not, he can be an ally and an asset. She can keep the suspicion of his falsehood for if he starts to go off the rails. She wants to reestablish her family's dynasty as she feels it was unjustly taken from them. If he's real, him being family would be a positive, and more importantly, she believes herself to be barren (although her time in the desert seems to be hinting at the opposite). She needs an acceptable heir, she doesn't need to marry him she can make him her heir. He needs credibility towards his claim, Dany (and her dragons) accepting him would be in his advantage so that should help with him keeping his attitude in check. I think she should evaluate his capacities as a ruler, learn more about Westeros, wait until her position and perception as a ruler is stable and positive and then make a decision if he needs to be disposed of. She can use the tendency of men to not take her seriously to her advantage. He seems impetuous and a bit of a brat so he would totally try to prove himself and I'm sure there will be quite a few battles before they are uniformly accepted. I mean, accidents happen right? She tried to reason with him and he just wanted to go. Good point. But will such an action be in line with the interests of those who come with Dany? Victarion would sooner slay fAegon and marry Dany himself than see Dany allying with fAegon and making him her heir. Tyrion is no less ambitious than him. Most of the readers consider Tyrion as the solution to all of Dany's woes. But what if it is the opposite? What if Tyrion will be the primary aggressor in provoking the Second Dance of Dragons? I think it is erroneous to take Dany as the ultimate decision maker in the future as she used to be so far. She will not be the only big POV in her entourage and she will definitely not be the only dragonrider out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Edit; NVM, misinterpreted the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 To challenge the notion that "the right blood" or "good intentions" matter. In many, many books or films, it's the fundamental premise that one or the other is the only thing a competent ruler needs. But that's hilarious. GRRM knows that and has quite often commented on it, in rather disparaging ways. Nevertheless, in my opinion she will be indeed kicked out and probably killed. Personally, I am of the mind that it's stupid for Dany and Aegon to fight. Dany's wish isn't about being ruler of the world, it's not ambition for ambition's sake à la LF. Regardless of whether Aegon is fake or not, he can be an ally and an asset. She can keep the suspicion of his falsehood for if he starts to go off the rails. She wants to reestablish her family's dynasty as she feels it was unjustly taken from them. If he's real, him being family would be a positive, and more importantly, she believes herself to be barren (although her time in the desert seems to be hinting at the opposite). She needs an acceptable heir, she doesn't need to marry him she can make him her heir.With one big, ugly problem: Dany could be Aegon's heir, but never the other way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 ^^^If we're going by war time, conquest logistics, anyone can be King/Queen if they have the backing necessary. If Daenerys has the backing, she can declare herself Queen, screw everyone else. If Robert can call himself King while there are still Targaryens alive I think she can be Queen. She has dragons, I think they will sit down, shut up and not challenge her openly if they want to get rid of her. My whole point though was, she can retain her authority and autonomy and still not make an enemy out of Aegon. Good point. But will such an action be in line with the interests of those who come with Dany? Victarion would sooner slay fAegon and marry Dany himself than see Dany allying with fAegon and making him her heir. Tyrion is no less ambitious than him. Most of the readers consider Tyrion as the solution to all of Dany's woes. But what if it is the opposite? What if Tyrion will be the primary aggressor in provoking the Second Dance of Dragons? I think it is erroneous to take Dany as the ultimate decision maker in the future as she used to be so far. She will not be the only big POV in her entourage and she will definitely not be the only dragonrider out there. It's true that Dany's biggest minuses are the company she keeps. I must admit I have not considered it from that angle because she has been so isolated so far I keep forgetting that her playing the game of thrones will not be like her invading Meereen, sitting down on the throne and then dealing with the discord.Guilty; I do take Tyrion for granted as a helper but yeah, who knows what he wants out of this. Although, I would think CR and Cersei's head on a spike is enough motivation. I don't see him as a greedy person who will always want more. I can see him being happy with CR for his service, especially since he still hates Jaime's guts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think a second Dance is just unfounded speculation. Nobody really knows who she is in Westeros except a handful of people. And the only people that like her in Essos are the slaves that she has freed and even their allegiance is debatable. She has dragons, though. So, there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 ^^^If we're going by war time, conquest logistics, anyone can be King/Queen if they have the backing necessary. If Daenerys has the backing, she can declare herself Queen, screw everyone else. If Robert can call himself King while there are still Targaryens alive I think she can be Queen. She has dragons, I think they will sit down, shut up and not challenge her openly if they want to get rid of her. My whole point though was, she can retain her authority and autonomy and still not make an enemy out of Aegon. Sure. If she doesn't care one whiff about her Targaryen claim, instead relying solely on "I have a big stick, you submit now." And of course Aegon won't accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The people in Westeros don't analyse her actions and overthink her story like we did. Only the big players who don't want her in power will see her as a danger to their own power, which they have already done with Stannis and Aegon. But the best propaganda Dany has is not the dragons. Is that she has liberated slaves. Do you actually think they will ponder and dissect her ruling like we do? The common folk will only see her as a force that has come to help them and free them from the evil Lannister regime. Those who want something from her will say the same. That's what she has already to her favour. Aegon's propaganda is just that he's Rhaegar's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 At the minute with only two books left & her in the Dothraki sea a second Dance & people uprising against her both seem logistically impossible. That said, I read somewhere on this forum that Grrm has confirmed that a second Dance is coming. That doesn't mean it will play out exactly the same. I think she will be seen as a villain when she finally arrives, mainly because Aegon will be seen as the perfect King, by the majority of Lords, smallfolk & especially the Faith. A second so called Dance will begin, but they will ultimately have to join forces, as the threat from the WW will be to great to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 GRRM has mentioned that there would be a second dance in an upcoming book. It's not an unreasonable assumption regardless, given the mummer's dragon was listed as something for Dany to slay, and her and Aegon being rivals for the same throne. As to her being unpopular... Aegon seems the one likely to capitalize on all the current issues. He'll be the first one to fight the unpopular Lannister-Tyrell regime. Varys has spun a good PR story for him. He's as ideal a king to the Faith as there is at the moment, and the High Sparrow won't look kindly on Dany's "demon" worshiping followers given his reaction to Stannis', and he has a lot of pull with the smallfolk. Aegon will presumably battle Euron and the ironborn rather than ally with them. There's that vision of what is presumably him amid a cheering crowd. Dany's reputation is leaking back into westeros, and from what we've seen in that sample chapter, it's that of a kinslayer, which could repeat itself if she's seen attacking her already established nephew. eta: dun goof'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow282 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Why would they hate her? It's not like she's bringing three gigantic death machines that she can barely control. Or (probably) an army of foreign savage rapist riders. Or a group of weird castrated soldiers. Or (again probably) at the head of a fleet of IB ships, the same people who are currently attacking the rest of the realm. Or (again again probably) in the company of a known kingslayer and kinslayer who was widely disliked even before any of that. Or (again again again probably) with agents of weird foreign religions. Or that she's the daughter of the "Mad King". Or that she'll bring even more war to an already war-torn kingdom that's desperately trying to gather enough supplies not to die in winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 With so much going on and with so much needing to happen it kind of seems like two more novels will not be enough. Unless......Daenerys never makes it to Westeros (which is what I hope will happen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 With so much going on and with so much needing to happen it kind of seems like two more novels will not be enough. Unless......Daenerys never makes it to Westeros (which is what I hope will happen). She will, by GRRM's word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cladinator Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 She will, by GRRM's word. Darn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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