Heresy 154

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 154, and its continuing sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running continuously for over three years now?

The short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion, or argument if you will, largely but not exclusively concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, and the Stark connection to both – or in short, Winter. The Heresy itself, is not a particular theory far less a belief or set of beliefs, formulated and defended, but rather an application of chaos theory and a way of thinking that looks at the story holistically and openly challenges some of those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, as transcribed below does most notably emphasise that he is taking the story through five related story arcs, not one. While the story has obviously changed and moved in interesting directions since its original conception, the synopsis does indeed confirm that the overall story does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, but rather that is just one relatively minor plot device in an altogether much larger story.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[WeaselPie]

If I can continue a thought from the last thread, regarding the possibility that perhaps priestesses lay with Others to produce icebabies of some kind (the pregnant woman emerging from the pool praying for a son to avenge her), I'll post my last comment from the last thread.

Hey, about Mel's shadowbabies... how are they created? I'm not asking about the birds and the bees, I know that part. And I know it's magic. But Mel somehow summons something to .. I dunno, replace the sperm? Transform the fetus? It's born fully sentient, mobile, ready to obey orders, then it vanishes once the job is done.

The only thing I can consider significant is a third entity involved in the process. A man, a woman, and a something else. A child of three.

This is similar to a warged wolf mating with a wolf (a forbidden thing for skinchangers, but obviously happens). A male wolf, a female wolf, and a skinchanger, which might produce an atypical magical child-of-three offspring like... Ghost. That's a story for another day.

HOWever. Dany, child of three. We have tons of wonky Dany history (red door, lemon tree), but further we have tons of Stark resonance in Dany's storyling.

Uh.. maybe ignore the ramble about Dany and concentrate on the child of three= mother+father+magical entity. Can that tie together multiple storylines?

We know the Others skinchange in their fashion, but the wights are generally undead thralls. Coldhands is different, as he is still sentient but held in a thrall of some kind, more like a lich than a zombie.

The Night's King "gave his soul" to his cold Queen. Mel says something like Stannis gave his soul to create the shadowbaby.

ETA the Ice Priestess theory does have some textual evidence in the form of Dalla and Val.

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure how mystical we want to get in this, but turned around this isn't entirely inconsistent with some of the stuff we've discussed before about the importance of the matriarchal line and how "external intervention" for lack of a better term seems to be significant. From a paternal point of view we're encouraged to believe that some of the Stark idiosyncracies come from marrying the daughters of other conquered kings, but perhaps the significant stuff comes in the other way around.

I don't for a moment believe that Craster's boys or their icy predecessors are themselves capable of procreation which is why they're changed or made in the first place, but if we then allow those who created or at least first created them to be non-magical Others then the lying with wildling women to produce terrible half-human children [wargs and skinchangers?] becomes more of a practical possibility. Then of course we have the tale of Bael the Bard whose bastard son became a Lord Stark and thus provides a perfect precedent for Jon Snow, sired by Rhaegar Targaryen [or whoever] but still a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen prince. In other words Rhaegar, Bael and any others before them are not subverting the Stark line with their blood, but strengthening it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

WeaselPie

It also occurs to me that the entrance to the Cave of the 3 eyed raven is also magically warded.. to protect one of the entrances to these possible passages underground? Possible. Strange it's not the same magic however.

The Night's Gate's warding magic is so out of whack with other magic in the book. Transmogrified doors that require a verbal statement... weird

It's possible the passage remained unwarded while the Night's King used it to smuggle his Other wife under the Wall, and the Gate and the warding was only creating afterwards. If you missed it, I was saying that it's possible the Wall's magic only extends above ground, not far below, otherwise, the gate would not be needed.

The Black Gate is blind. In the past, maybe the gate did not need a verbal answer but to see who is knocking. Even to see who is approaching to acknowledge the would be travelers, like a security guard who knows by sight who is allowed passage/entry. :dunno: Another idea is the Gate was purposely blinded by someone who desired to use the gate for unofficial business. Newly renovated NW, or Joramun?

It does make sense that the Wall does not affect the underground passages. Why else put a Gate in the tunnel that prevents undead from passing?

MaesterSam

Maybe if we reinterpret the standard idea to mean human priestesses laying with Others for magical purposes to bring forth some version of shadowbabies (just as Mel and Stannis do), rather than actually procreating and leaving offspring... it works a little better. As, presumably, the priestesses could withstand the cold of the Others more reasonably than a normal human woman could, which has always been the iffy part.

Or the other way around. Male human sorcerers (GS's, likely including NK and his many aliases) + Other priestesses (NQ). But again, I prefer the idea of it happening to create "a magic servant" rather than raising cute little half-human babies which then somehow disappeared or whatever

Cool. It does fit with the shadows of winter, white shadows, cold spirits etc.

[Matthew.]

From the previous thread:

That's not to say that his parentage will be totally unimportant. But it doesn't seem like a huge plot point from the original letter. In fact, its relevance appears to lie in simply giving closure to Jon's character arc.

The problem with this argument is that the letter doesn't really give away anything of significance as relates to the final two arcs--it tells us nothing of how the Others will be fought, what their real origins are, etc., so I don't know how we can determine what will be significant from that letter. For example, the CotF are very important to certain poster's theories of the Others, yet they're not even mentioned in the letter--so it really just seems like picking and choosing what we should take away from that synopsis, based on pure personal preference.

As to the title the fact Rhaegar, Jon's presumed biological father, obsessed as he was by prophecy is the only one to use the words - in a vision, responding to Elia's asking him to make a song for Aegon, he responds that he has a song and that it is the song of Ice and Fire, is indeed significant in so far as nobody else mentions such a thing or provides any foreshadowing of such. GRRM does of course use it as the overarching title for a series which features external two threats to Westeros, first from the last of the Dragonlords and her beasties and then from the boys in the Ice.

At the time, the context was focused on the song being for Aegon, because the Song of Ice and Fire is the song of the PtwP (whatever all of that means); however, just like Rhaegar was once mistakenly labeled tPtwP by himself and Aemon, it's a fair bet that Aegon, who may not even be alive, also wasn't tptwp.

That particular phrase, Song of Ice and Fire has only been uttered once, but the Prince that Was Promised has been referenced more than once, and so has AA; it's not clear that they're all the same thing, but between Mel and Aemon and the HoTU visions, I'd say the collective AA/ptwp/Three Heads mystery has received as much narrative focus as the Others. Maybe even a bit more.

I'm not saying that Jon is tPtwP, or even Rhaegar's son, but the fact that the possibility exists means that being half-dragon could end up being very important, depending on what's happening with all of these magic bloodlines. In addition to that comment from Rhaegar, there's Jon's own dream where he's armored in black ice, wielding a flaming sword, overt Ice/Fire imagery.

I just don't see the point of making Rhaegar his father (again, not at all confirmed, but for the sake of argument...), and potentially wasting text on foreshadowing that revelation, only for the revelation to mean absolutely nothing. Trading one Stark parent for a different Stark parent doesn't somehow make Jon "more Stark" than he already is; he's still Jon Snow.

[FC_Lymond]

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

I really need to set aside some time and write out my attempt at a Lyanna used old magic to enthrall Rhaegar and cause Robert's Rebellion full theory. This quote is another hint at it.

Other Clues

-L raised by Old Nan

-L tricks everyone as KOTL

-L Brandon's comment about Ls Wolf Blood causing all the trouble

-R had far too much to lose to just run off with L. This is discussed endlessly, and people just try to try to wave it away.

-KG at the TOJ might also be explained

[WeaselPie]

A few more passages regarding the connection between certain places, rituals, gates....

Lots to absorb here.

Parallel scenes Bran/Dany/Arya

Dany: Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Bran It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?

Weirwood paste is made from Weirwood trees, white with red leaves. Bran likens the red sap to blood. It’s taste awakens memories for Bran, then enhances his powers.

Dany’s drink, Shade of the evening and the House of the Undying: Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening. Drinking it turns lips pale blue (that color again). Its taste awakens memories for Dany, then enhances her powers.

Is this the only grove of black trees in the books? More evidence of a holy place created on ground sanctified with trees, a pool, and tunnels.

There are several ebony and weirwood doors in the novels. In the HotU (riddled with tunnels and tricksy architecture, and Dany is urged never to go down, but up), at the HoBaW (more tunnels, goes much deeper, words at the door), the Black Gate (more tunnels, goes deeper, more words). Is the ebony in the books from this sacred type of tree?

Arya AFFC – Arya needs to speak the words, but also gets mildly drugged by the candles, which awaken memories. Here is also where we get another magic door that needs words.

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. "Let me in, you stupid," she said. "I crossed the narrow sea." She made a fist and pounded. "Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin." She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. "See? Valar morghulis."

The doors made no reply, except to open.

The air was warm and heavy, so heavy that she yawned. She could smell the candles. The scent was unfamiliar, and she put it down to some queer incense, but as she got deeper into the temple, they seemed to smell of snow and pine needles and hot stew. Good smells, Arya told herself, and felt a little braver.

In the center of the temple she found the water she had heard; a pool ten feet across, black as ink and lit by dim red candles. Beside it sat a young man in a silvery cloak, weeping softly. She watched him dip a hand in the water, sending scarlet ripples racing across the pool. When he drew his fingers back he sucked them, one by one. He must be thirsty. There were stone cups along the rim of the pool. Arya filled one and brought it to him, so he could drink. The young man stared at her for a long moment when she offered it to him. "Valar morghulis," he said.

"Valar dohaeris," she replied.

He drank deep, and dropped the cup into the pool with a soft plop. Then he pushed himself to his feet, swaying, holding his belly. For a moment Arya thought he was going to fall. It was only then that she saw the dark stain below his belt, spreading as she watched. "You're stabbed," she blurted, but the man paid her no mind.

The last one is strange because although the pool appears black, Arya mistakes it for blood. Weirwood leaves? Just a guess.

-

On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles. I smell the stables. I smell Hodor laughing, and Jon and Robb battling in the yard, and Sansa singing about some stupid lady fair. I smell the crypts where the stone kings sit, I smell hot bread baking, I smell the godswood. I smell my wolf, I smell her fur, almost as if she were still beside me. "I don't smell anything," she said, to see what he would say.

-

I’ll throw in Patchface (red mouth, surrounded by skulls, lost in the deep, under the sea, the shadows came to stay my lord) as a thought. Maybe he visited somewhere; we know he emerged changed. We also know there are some kind of magic wards at Storm’s End (built by Bran the Builder) but we don’t yet know what they are. Not a stretch to think that Storm’s End might be built on a similar site, with similar wards needed for similar reasons.

I'll also throw in the black pool under the Heart Tree in Winterfell.

Anyway, there is a clear parallel between places, experiences, the awakening of memories, and the enhancement of natural powers in TWO types of trees - the weirwood and the ebony, which I can almost guarantee are these strange trees at the HotU.

[Black Crow]

From the previous thread:

At the time, the context was focused on the song being for Aegon, because the Song of Ice and Fire is the song of the PtwP (whatever all of that means); however, just like Rhaegar was once mistakenly labeled tPtwP by himself and Aemon, it's a fair bet that Aegon, who may not even be alive, also wasn't tptwp.

That particular phrase, Song of Ice and Fire has only been uttered once, but the Prince that Was Promised has been referenced more than once, and so has AA; it's not clear that they're all the same thing, but between Mel and Aemon and the HoTU visions, I'd say the collective AA/ptwp/Three Heads mystery has received as much narrative focus as the Others. Maybe even a bit more.

I'm not saying that Jon is tPtwP, or even Rhaegar's son, but the fact that the possibility exists means that being half-dragon could end up being very important, depending on what's happening with all of these magic bloodlines. In addition to that comment from Rhaegar, there's Jon's own dream where he's armored in black ice, wielding a flaming sword, overt Ice/Fire imagery.

I just don't see the point of making Rhaegar his father (again, not at all confirmed, but for the sake of argument...), and potentially wasting text on foreshadowing that revelation, only for the revelation to mean absolutely nothing. Trading one Stark parent for a different Stark parent doesn't somehow make Jon "more Stark" than he already is; he's still Jon Snow.

It also rather depends on how you define nothing and how significant you regard prophecy in all of this. GRRM has famously warned against relying on prophecy and I would suggest that what you've laid out above is indeed significant but not in leading to a revelation of Jon as a promised Targaryen prince. Rhaegar's presumed obsession with fulfilling or failing that bringing about the fulfillment of the prophecy is not wasted text because that's [apparently] why the rebellion kicked off as it did and so much of where Westeros is now is a direct result both of his pursuit of the prophecy just as is Mel's screwing around with the [linked?] Azor Ahai prophecy.

As to Jon, as I said in my earlier post revealing his father to be Rhaegar is not necessarily a dead end if Jon is not changed thereby. At the most basic of levels learning that your father was the Prince Rhaegar who kicked off all the bloodshed and horror by kidnapping and allegedly raping your mother all those years ago is a terrible irony, but if you do want to factor in something more then we have precedent enough in the story of Bael that Rhaegar being Jon's father neither means that he too is a Targaryen or even a fusion of Ice and Fire, but rather remains a son of Wnterfell with value added.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Is the HoBaW vision of Rhaegar and Elia an actual event or symbolic or one that might have been? Does such a song actually exist, the song of ice and fire? Or is the use of the song name meant to be one of those "he said the title of the movie in the movie"moments?

[Urrax2]

Is the HoBaW vision of Rhaegar and Elia an actual event or symbolic or one that might have been? Does such a song actually exist, the song of ice and fire? Or is the use of the song name meant to be one of those "he said the title of the movie in the movie"moments?

We don't know any of the above. I don't think we really know it's Rhaegar and/or Elia.

[MaesterSam]

He remembers his father being sad. But there is no horror in that dream, at all. The alternative scenario you described becomes that much more convoluted. Again, I want there to be a viable alternative, I really do, because RLJ does feel cliche. But the maternal Stark curse scenario is built on a multitude of maybes and fan fiction, rather than text.

I believe the phrase Bran used was "deeply disturbing." But I personally don't agree with the belief that it was Jon's identity that was disturbing to Bran. Rather, we need to examine this dream in context. He dreamt of his father in the crypts. When he wakes up, he makes Luwin take him there. When they arrive, Rickon is already in Ned's tomb- he dreamed the same dream. So both boys dreamed of Ned in the crypts, and expected to find him there. When they return to Luwin's solar, the raven arrives with the news of the execution.

In other words, the dreams were clearly prophetic- both boys dreamed of Ned in his tomb, and it turns out he is really dead. Of course that dream would have been disturbing, as it alerted him (subconsciously) that his father was dead.

Dunno, but I'm sure elucidation will come in Heresy 154 whither we are now bound.

Lol, did I take it too far? I was thinking of the interactions Theon has with the WF weirwood.

There is this scene, immediately following Ramsay's wedding:

Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer. Will the old gods hear me if I do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands … but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

“Theon,” a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. “Who said that?” All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god’s voice, or a ghost’s. How many died the day that he took Winterfell? How many more the day he lost it? The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek.

And then, a few days later:

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon,” they seemed to whisper, “Theon.”

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children.

“Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. “I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.”

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “…Bran,” the tree murmured. They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon.They were only miller’s sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. “I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me …laughed at me … they …”

A voice said, “Who are you talking to?”

Theon spun, terrified that Ramsay had found him, but it was just the washerwomen—Holly, Rowan, and one whose name he did not know. “The ghosts,” he blurted. “They whisper to me. They … they know my name.”

By comparison, Ned seems unable to make out any specific words when Bran tries to communicate with him. There is also a passage in AGOT where Osha tells Bran to listen to the trees, that they speak to him, but when he tries he hears only the rustling of leaves.

So it seemed to me that Theon is, so far, the only one who seems to understand specific words the weirwood (or rather, Bran) says to him.

Linking it to his hair color was a stretch though, I admit. Perhaps the sensory deprivation in the dark Dreadfort dungeons is a better explanation.

ETA: This is the passage I was thinking of, regarding the hair. He is now grey and white, like a Stark. But this is most likely only symbolic, and not the reason he can hear the Stark heart tree.

The bride was garbed in white and grey, the colors the true Arya would have worn had she lived long enough to wed. Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder by a crude iron kraken that a smith in Barrowton had hammered together for him. But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man’s greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought.

[JNR]

I just don't see the point of making Rhaegar his father (again, not at all confirmed, but for the sake of argument...), and potentially wasting text on foreshadowing that revelation, only for the revelation to mean absolutely nothing. Trading one Stark parent for a different Stark parent doesn't somehow make Jon "more Stark" than he already is; he's still Jon Snow.

I agree in the sense that if Jon's father is Rhaegar, it's very likely to be significant in that it will matter enormously to Jon.

You just can't be told that your father wasn't the guy you've always thought, but instead the crown prince of Westeros, and shrug it off. And we do know, from an old Barnes and Noble interview, that according to GRRM Jon will eventually find out his true parents (whoever they may be).

The significance to the plot is much harder to extrapolate with any confidence. And the 1993 summary doesn't seem all that useful to me because it's such a faded antique. All we can do is say "Well, 21 years ago, GRRM was thinking about..."

The PtwP stuff is hard for me to consider directly relevant to Jon because

1. We don't know what the PtwP is supposed to do, since we've never read the actual prophecy

2. Rhaegar thought the PtwP was Aegon

3. That sequence was a HotU vision of uncertain literal reality

It's also interesting that Maester Aemon... fascinated though he was with the PtwP and familiar as he was with Rhaegar's correspondence on the subject... had nothing to say about the PtwP to Jon, and instead seemed interested in having Jon read up on AAR via the Jade Compendium. Maester Aemon also plainly thought the PtwP was Dany.

I've seen it suggested that Aemon (despite being blind) was able to identify Jon as a Targ via (cough) secret Targ mannerisms known to him... but if so, he obviously never saw fit to tell Jon, nor considered Jon's parentage relevant to the identity of the PtwP.

So I'm generally not very inclined to think much of Rhaegar's beliefs as implied or stated in a mystical vision, because even if he really said what he seems to have said, he died long before he could get some critically important updates to his information stack.

We don't know any of the above. I don't think we really know it's Rhaegar and/or Elia.

It's not completely certain to me, but seems likely from this Citadel analysis, that says

The fifth room shows Rhaegar and Elia with the newborn Aegon, as confirmed by Martin.

But there's no link to the ostensible confirmation.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I have heard that Mr. Martin verified the baby in the vision is Aegon. Not sure about the parent confirmation. Maybe it was Aegon I. :D

[Black Crow]

We don't know any of the above. I don't think we really know it's Rhaegar and/or Elia.

As I recall what GRRM confirmed was that the woman was Elia:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

[Black Crow]

Is the HoBaW vision of Rhaegar and Elia an actual event or symbolic or one that might have been? Does such a song actually exist, the song of ice and fire? Or is the use of the song name meant to be one of those "he said the title of the movie in the movie"moments?

The passage is as quoted and I doubt that it was intended as a "might have been" in the way that the boy watching a burning city was. The way I'd tend to read it is that there is no literal Song of Ice and Fire but that Rhaegar reckons that playing that particular game is baby Aegon's destiny [although GRRM's use of initial capitals is a little idiosyncratic so we can't be absolutely sure], in the context however its more likely that the business of Rhaegar looking directly at Danaerys when he says there must be one more and that there must be three heads of the dragon, means that she is meant to be one of them - not that he went out and knocked up Lyanna to make Jon to be the third. Maester Aemon's regret that he was too old and frail to be one of the three also suggests that the three are not necessarily to be siblings.

[WeaselPie]

The CotF call themselves "those who sing the songs of earth" and seem very focused on both learning/retaining a sort of collective memory of the planet and actually becoming a part of the unbroken memories of history when they "go into the earth, into the trees." The bones remember. Bran remembers their songs as sad and tear-inducing even though he could not understand the words.

So memory plays a very important part here, which is why the awakening of memories in several characters strikes me, per my last post.

If the song of Ice and Fire is a particular future event or person, there have probably been other "songs" in the past.

Rhaegar knew all the old sad songs of course. To give him an seemingly random association with the CotF makes me very anxious to know more about the Isle of Faces and the Green men.

Since we expect the song of "ice and fire" to partly be one of devastation (to certain characters, to parts of the world), there are other "songs" that have been equally devastating.

The shattering of the Arm of Dorne, the Hammer of the Waters in the Neck, the rise of Mother Rhoyne (and creation of the Stone Men), the Doom of Valyria, the conflagration of Hardhome. Perhaps these were all "songs." They're all certainly devastating planet events with far-reaching consequences. ETA Summerhall

In other words, I think "song of ice and fire" isn't a fairytale nickname for a "chosen one" hero, I think it's much darker. Considering all those sad "songs."

[WeaselPie]

The passage is as quoted and I doubt that it was intended as a "might have been" in the way that the boy watching a burning city was. The way I'd tend to read it is that there is no literal Song of Ice and Fire but that Rhaegar reckons that playing that particular game is baby Aegon's destiny [although GRRM's use of initial capitals is a little idiosyncratic so we can't be absolutely sure], in the context however its more likely that the business of Rhaegar looking directly at Danaerys when he says there must be one more and that there must be three heads of the dragon, means that she is meant to be one of them - not that he went out and knocked up Lyanna to make Jon to be the third. Maester Aemon's regret that he was too old and frail to be one of the three also suggests that the three are not necessarily to be siblings.

Your point about Aemon is right on. Also, that Aegon (a Martell/Targ) did not have to be a Stark/Targ for that to be his song.

Whether the man in the vision looked at Dany is left ambiguous.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room...

[Frey family reunion]

Well I just got a book signed by Martin and I had a quick chance to talk to him so pretty cool day so far. Still have the panels this afternoon

[JNR]

In other words, I think "song of ice and fire" isn't a fairytale nickname for a "chosen one" hero, I think it's much darker. Considering all those sad "songs."

:agree:

This may be the single most common belief among Heretics and point of differentiation from most threads one finds in the General section. The true meaning of the series title is not a trivial matter.