Aegon and/or JonCon showing up earlier in the series?

[kimim]

As JonCon's Red Beard said AFFC and ADWD are actually one big book. We could discuss if it was smart to make two separate novels out of it, but that would be another discussion.

That you can read them together doesn't mean that book 4 was written along with book 5, then split, for whatever reason. Martin took five extra years coming up with the Dance, and he talked at length about his difficulties writing that book. I think Martin couldn't get Dany back to Westeros in time to take advantage of the disasters there, so he sent another Targ--Aegon. There are no hints as to the existence of this character in books 1-4, as he probably didn't exist before the last book.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That you can read them together doesn't mean that book 4 was written along with book 5, then split, for whatever reason. Martin took five extra years coming up with the Dance, and he talked at length about his difficulties writing that book. I think Martin couldn't get Dany back to Westeros in time to take advantage of the disasters there, so he sent another Targ--Aegon. There are no hints as to the existence of this character in books 1-4, as he probably didn't exist before the last book.

Actually, it started as one book, IICR. Martin realised it was too much for one volume and made the split.

We were meant to meet the whole players in one single book, and end it with the big reveal of what LF's and Varys' plans were.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Showing up now while Westeros most of Westeros is exhausted for war with an unpopular monarch ruling is great timing. Not to mention, Aegon's biggest ally, his uncle Doran and Dorne, has been untouched by war and stands mobilized to back him.

[PatrickStormborn]

Hmmmm, interesting

Well, yeah, but I was talking more in terms of reader investment in the character. Like, we've known Dany since the first book, but Aegon just showed up, so Dany has a considerable advantage over him in that sense

I hate to state the obvious, but that doesn't really matter. Dany is one of the key protagonists of the series, whilst Aegon doesn't even have his own POV. We're quite clearly supposed to be more invested in Daenerys.

That you can read them together doesn't mean that book 4 was written along with book 5, then split, for whatever reason. Martin took five extra years coming up with the Dance, and he talked at length about his difficulties writing that book. I think Martin couldn't get Dany back to Westeros in time to take advantage of the disasters there, so he sent another Targ--Aegon. There are no hints as to the existence of this character in books 1-4, as he probably didn't exist before the last book.

He's been foreshadowed quite explicitly from as early as ACoK, with the mummer's dragon vision in the House of the Undying. Other hints that there's something more going on to Varys and Illyrio's plotting include Varys fuelling the fall of the Targaryen dynasty and Illyrio's interactions with Viserys. It's quite evident that neither of them are interested in a Targaryen restoration.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I hate to state the obvious, but that doesn't really matter. Dany is one of the key protagonists of the series, whilst Aegon doesn't even have his own POV. We're quite clearly supposed to be more invested in Daenerys.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean Aegon has to feel as a tacked on afterthought, which is how a significant part of the fandom feel about him. Obviously Dany as a POV would always have the advantage, but Aegon arrived too late is what I'm saying

And yeah, there were some foreshadowings, but to say they were explicit is quite a reach. Euron, for example, was mentioned for the first time back in aCoK, and it wasn't just a passing mention either, since Theon clearly considered him a cunning threat. Obviously GRRM couldn't have mentioned Aegon directly or he would've ruined the surprise, but look at JonCon. For such an important character he's mentioned remarkably few times, if any, before he makes his appearance.

Showing up now while Westeros most of Westeros is exhausted for war with an unpopular monarch ruling is great timing. Not to mention, Aegon's biggest ally, his uncle Doran and Dorne, has been untouched by war and stands mobilized to back him.

Yeah, obviously Aegon's invasion had a great timing in-universe, and even for the plot at large. He's a game changer alright. But potential foreshadowing aside, what I wonder is if there's a feasible way GRRM could've introduced him earlier, not necessarily as Aegon, but as Young Griff could work too

[chrisdaw]

That you can read them together doesn't mean that book 4 was written along with book 5, then split, for whatever reason. Martin took five extra years coming up with the Dance, and he talked at length about his difficulties writing that book. I think Martin couldn't get Dany back to Westeros in time to take advantage of the disasters there, so he sent another Targ--Aegon. There are no hints as to the existence of this character in books 1-4, as he probably didn't exist before the last book.

In hindsight Varys' "for the children" speech to Ned should dispel any notion that Aegon was a late inclusion and not planned by GRRM from the start. Viserys was to head the Dothraki, that does not mean that Varys and Illyrio ever meant for him to be king.

[kimim]

Actually, it started as one book, IICR. Martin realised it was too much for one volume and made the split.

We were meant to meet the whole players in one single book, and end it with the big reveal of what LF's and Varys' plans were.

Of course it started as one book, but the Dance was published five years after the Feast. That would imply that a lot of writing went on, specifically for Dance, after the publication of Feast.

...

He's been foreshadowed quite explicitly from as early as ACoK, with the mummer's dragon vision in the House of the Undying. Other hints that there's something more going on to Varys and Illyrio's plotting include Varys fuelling the fall of the Targaryen dynasty and Illyrio's interactions with Viserys. It's quite evident that neither of them are interested in a Targaryen restoration.

Mummer's dragon, which I should have remembered, is the only foreshadowing I can think of. In my first reading of the series, I thought it referred to Viserys, or to Targs in general, who are pretend dragons after the death of their dragons. There is not enough preparation for a reveal as huge as Aegon (imo).

As far as Ilyrio's interactions with Viserys: He has no respect for Viserys, and he's not alone. The most striking aspect of his interactions with Dany and Viserys is that he allows them to live. If Ilyrio and Varys wanted Aegon on the throne, then the most obvious thing for them to do would be to kill the pair. Using Dany and Drogo as a way of destabilizing Westeros doesn't make sense; at this point, Robert's a drunk, the country is bankrupt, and Cersei's passing off her children with Jaime as legitimate heirs. There is no need to call up something as unpredictable as a khalasar to mess things further. If Aegon had always been in the picture, Dany and Viserys would have been killed years ago.

As far as what Varys did to Aerys: Varys's history is sketchy. Assuming that he was out to destroy the Targs doesn't match the guy who allows Dany to live.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

but look at JonCon. For such an important character he's mentioned remarkably few times, if any, before he makes his appearance.

Few, yes. But not mere mentions. Before we actually met the guy we knew:

He was Hand of the King

Friend of Rhaegar

Lost the Battle of the Bells

Lost his lands and titles

Got exiled.

That's his whole story. When we meet him, we already knew his story and background, only heard his perspective about it and some confirmations. Also, we were introduced to him via Tyrion, one of the most observant characters of the book and even got a mention in the World book. GRRM wants you (YES, YOU!!) to know who this guy is. That's why I believe he's the one who will end up being more relevant than Aegon himself, which saddens me because I like Aegon.

(nah, it doesn't sadden me AT ALL)

[JPJK79]

The sad thing is Aegon is the best chance of uniting the Seven Kingdoms at this point.

And how is that? How will the north feel about him and Dany for that fact? The north still thinks his daddy kidnapped and raped their former Lord's daughter. They will still look at him as the grandson of the King who killed their former lord and heir. The only way for Aegon to get the north is if he marries Sansa. But alone he can't. Irregardless I think he will be weeded out before that as a fake.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Few, yes. But not mere mentions. Before we actually met the guy we knew:

He was Hand of the King

Friend of Rhaegar

Lost the Battle of the Bells

Lost his lands and titles

Got exiled.

That's his whole story. When we meet him, we already knew his story and background, only heard his perspective about it and some confirmations. Also, we were introduced to him via Tyrion, one of the most observant characters of the book and even got a mention in the World book. GRRM wants you (YES, YOU!!) to know who this guy is. That's why I believe he's the one who will end up being more relevant than Aegon himself, which saddens me because I like Aegon.(nah, it doesn't sadden me AT ALL)

I don't know, I still think GRRM could've set him up better before his appearance. Don't get me wrong, using Tyrion as the POV for his intro was a good start, but it still felt a bit like, "Jon who? Oh, right, he's that guy", in my opinion

[Quwertzuiopp]

I find it difficult come up with a way to introduce Aegon earlier. He is obviously MEANT to be a suprise, even to the reader, not just the in-universe people. To me he never felt like an afterthought or tacked on, because it was obvious to me from novel one that Varys was most definiatly not a big Targ supporter(he made Aerys open the gates), but not a friend of the Baratheons either. Why would he do all this if he wanted the Targs on the throne anyway? I don't believe that he is trying to get rich or get titles this way either, he could have had all that easier with his skills. Also, someone who lives a live like Varys' does not strike me as someone who would be ultimately seeking that. So I knew from the start that he wanted to achieve something. Maybe it IS seating his best friends kid on the throne. Maybe he is a Blackfyre loyalist or something like that. Or he plans for something even bigger. Maybe he IS a commie after all </sarcasm>

Like someone else has mentioned, at the end of the planned novel, we were to see the plans of the two great factions of players, LF and Varis&Illyrio. We had LF's reveal, so we had to get Varys' reveal (Aegon) later on.

I don't know how Dany fits into this picture. Maybe they wanted the dothraki to rampage through Westeros to make everyone hate the Targs, just to reveal a Blackfyre fighting against the evil foreign invaders. They just kept themselves their options open by telling Aegon he was, well, Aegon, so if they had to adapt their plans they still had him as a Targ to marry to Dany if the Dothraki thing failed (which it did). That way, they had the possiblity to place him on the throne next to a Targ that was know by everyone to be legit. Since they still planned to get Danys troops after everything played out differently, they didn't reveal Aegons parantage to him. If Dany was dead by then, they could also just go ahead, kill JonCon and tell the Golden Company he actually WAS the Blackfyre claimant they thought they had lost, to get them more loyal. I could definiatly see them doing it like this, they keep themselves ALL options open, so their plans don't get wrecked because of some small detail.

If GRRM had introduced the character of Aegon by giving him a POV or giving one to JonCon earlier, the reveal would have been too early, the suprise would be gone and there would be nothing much to tell, since they just tour the world on their boat. Just imagine how all those annoying people that whine allready about Quentin having to many pages would react if we were introduced to Aegon earlyer but with nothing but world building to see from his perspective(I would have loved that though).

If he had introduced him as a side character in someone elses POV, that would have been very clicheé, no matter how you twist it. Dany? An encounter of FATE! lame.

And just as a background character? Someone would have wondered who that guy was and we might have found out. That would spoil the surprise.

Like I said, he was meant to be a surprise just like the reveal of the extend of LF's scheming. In that regard, his timing was perfect, and he was introduced to a POV just as things started to get interesting around him.

[the conquering bastard 25]

And how is that? How will the north feel about him and Dany for that fact? The north still thinks his daddy kidnapped and raped their former Lord's daughter. They will still look at him as the grandson of the King who killed their former lord and heir. The only way for Aegon to get the north is if he marries Sansa. But alone he can't. Irregardless I think he will be weeded out before that as a fake.

He also has a brother on the Wall. If you think Jon and Aego aren't going to meet your crazy!

Aegon isn't a surprise. Think of all the times his fate is mentioned. Its supposed to mae the reader wonder just like a certain sword of the morning. I knew grrm kept mentioning him for xa reason. Fake o real he has been I the story since the beginning

[JPJK79]

He has been mentioned but if he is fake which I believe that he is then he isn't Rhaegar's son. So yeah he could still be a dragon but he isn't the dragon he says he is and that still is important. And could have huge and readily consequences.

Now a point is risen how will he react to Jon If they do meet. He and Varys and or Illirio probably want to get rid of Jon but the smart thing would is gain his trust. His trust could more valuable then Dany for the realms sake

[Lost Melnibonean]

Assuming Aegon is the third head of Rhaegar's dragon, with Daenerys and Jon being the other two of course, and that he is a Blackfyre, I think there's a ton of foreshadowing for Aegon...

In Clash everybody seemed to have a slightly different take on what omen the red comet represented. But Old Nan and Osha agreed...

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted.

[W]hen he asked what the comet meant, [Osha] answered, "Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet."

We know Osha is referring to dragons because the words of House Targaryen are "Fire and blood." So the comet heralds the return of dragons, and not just the fire breathing ones. Rhaegar told us to look for two more, the obvious one, Daenerys, the less obvious one, Jon, and the obscure one, Aegon.

That Osha inverted the Targaryen words is another subtle hint that one of the returning dragons would be a Blackfyre.

And here's what everybody's favorite scout had to say about it...

"That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky."

"Our blood or theirs?"

"Was there ever a war where only one side bled?" Her uncle gave a shake of the head. "The riverlands are awash in blood and flame ..."--Catelyn I, Clash

Again, we see the Targaryen words reversed--another subtle hint at House Blackfyre.

As Tyrion travels by litter through Kings Landing, he observes a hedge prophet preaching against the Lannisters, against Stannis, against the High Septon, and against Robert. A power vacuum has followed Robert's death, with snakes hissing and biting. Then he points at the comet and the Red Keep on Aegon's High Hill and warns of blood and fire

The sound of some hubbub in the street intruded on his worries. Tyrion peered out cautiously between the curtains. They were passing through Cobbler's Square, where a sizable crowd had gathered beneath the leather awnings to listen to the rantings of a prophet. A robe of undyed wool belted with a hempen rope marked him for one of the begging brothers.

"Corruption!" the man cried shrilly. "There is the warning! Behold the Father's scourge!" He pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon's High Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. "We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon. Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters! Even the High Septon has forgotten the gods! He bathes in scented waters and grows fat on lark and lamprey while his people starve! Pride comes before prayer, maggots rule our castles, and gold is all . . . but no more! The Rotten Summer is at an end, and the Whoremonger King is brought low! When the boar did open him, a great stench rose to heaven and a thousand snakes slid forth from his belly, hissing and biting!" He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. "There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!"

Tyrion V, Clash

And dragons themselves were described as snakes...

When she had her handmaids char the horsemeat black, the dragons ripped at it eagerly, their heads striking like snakes.

Daenerys I, Clash

"Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

..."Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Davos I, Clash

The color allusions are a bit confused, probably on purpose, since Dany is a red dragon who rides a black dragon, Aegon is a black dragon who appears set to play a role similar to Aegon II the leader of the greens against the blacks, and Jon Snow who keeps a white direwolf is associated with the blue winter roses adored by his true mother but became a black brother of the Night's Watch.

Nevertheless we can see that Viserion's cream and gold color does not fit with Jon's white and there is no blue dragon. But Jon fits Patchface's blue.

When the Targaryens are contrasted against the Blackfyres, we have red versus black or...

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

Tyrion VIII, Dance

But we also finally learned with the release of TP&TQ that the blacks led by a queen fought the greens led by a king named Aegon. And we saw in Dance that Daenerys rides Drogon, the black dragon with red highlights, which matches the colors of house Targaryen. So, in the absence of red in Patchface's color scheme, we can relate Daenerys to black, even tough we would normally relate the Blackfyre to black.

And from here it's easy to see how Aegon fits the green.

Here's a little odd bit of black and green imagery in Clash...

The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill. Black, they seemed . . . it was only when his torchlight brushed against them that Jon glimpsed a flash of green.

Jon IV, Clash

As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

All the colors that had been missing from Vaes Tolorro had found their way to Qarth; buildings crowded about her fantastical as a fever dream in shades of rose, violet, and umber. She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakes mating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. Slim towers stood taller than any Dany had ever seen, and elaborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores.

Daenerys II, Clash

Notice that she observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive. In case you dont know, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab. In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud.

And consider the manticore that attacked Daenerys, disguised as...

a glittering green scarab, carved from onyx and emerald.

Daenerys V, Clash

There's just too much green, blue and black imagery for it to be coincidental. Here's another description with black, blue and green...

The Pureborn heard her pleas from the great wooden seats of their ancestors, rising in curved tiers from a marble floor to a high-domed ceiling painted with scenes of Qarth's vanished glory. The chairs were immense, fantastically carved, bright with goldwork and studded with amber, onyx, lapis, and jade, each one different from all the others, and each striving to be the most fabulous.

Daenerys III, Clash

And as noted above, we can substitute red for black when accompanied by green and blue, so the Trident is exhibit A, with the Green Fork, the Blue Fork, the Red Fork.

[Good Guy Garlan]

^ I think that's reaching for the stars, to be honest. Sometimes a color is just a color

Also, just a general clarification: as much as I enjoy discussing Aegon's foreshadowing (or lack thereof), this thread was mostly about the feasibility of Aegon or JonCon appearing in person, in disguise or not, earlier in the series

[Lost Melnibonean]

^ I think that's reaching for the stars, to be honest. Sometimes a color is just a color

Also, just a general clarification: as much as I enjoy discussing Aegon's foreshadowing (or lack thereof), this thread was mostly about the feasibility of Aegon or JonCon appearing in person, in disguise or not, earlier in the series

Sorry you're right. I couldn't help myself. You pretty much said it all when you suggested that Daenerys shoulda bumped into Young Griff, or at least someone we'd realize now was young Griff. We still need to make sense of all those dudes a Drogo's manse. It would be pretty awesome if we could match one to Griff.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Sorry you're right. I couldn't help myself. You pretty much said it all when you suggested that Daenerys shoulda bumped into Young Griff, or at least someone we'd realize now was young Griff. We still need to make sense of all those dudes a Drogo's manse. It would be pretty awesome if we could match one to Griff.

Not gonna lie, I would like that a lot. There's already a theory about Moqorro being a guest in Dany's wedding, so why not?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

^ I think that's reaching for the stars, to be honest. Sometimes a color is just a color

Also, just a general clarification: as much as I enjoy discussing Aegon's foreshadowing (or lack thereof), this thread was mostly about the feasibility of Aegon or JonCon appearing in person, in disguise or not, earlier in the series

Well, I suppose they could have either appeared in Essos with Dany or somehow Westeros. With Dany is too hard for them, as she was very much everywhere. I suppose, the only way was for Aegon to be hidden in some loyalist house, like the Daynes.

[the conquering bastard 25]

He has been mentioned but if he is fake which I believe that he is then he isn't Rhaegar's son. So yeah he could still be a dragon but he isn't the dragon he says he is and that still is important. And could have huge and readily consequences.

Now a point is risen how will he react to Jon If they do meet. He and Varys and or Illirio probably want to get rid of Jon but the smart thing would is gain his trust. His trust could more valuable then Dany for the realms sake

Not bloody likely. JS wasn't the most trusting before the Ides of Marsh, now....Aegon doesn't stand a chance and he will always be compared toRobb and how he measures up.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

If you think Aegon is legitimate, sure his introduction is too late. But if he is fake, why not? He looks like plan B for Varys & Illyrio, or the second stage of a larger plan. If he is legitimate, I don't really understand why Illyrio was helping Viserys and Daenerys before. I would be surprised if he is legitimate. But elsewise, I see no problem.

Illyrio and Varys needed to create a threat with the Dany marriage remember Griff has no sister and if he is a Blackfyre there is nothing as prestigious about her. Also at the time the Iron Throne has no enemies Ned is the hand.

The whole purpose is probably for Robert to cross the Narrow Sea and leave Westeros weak where Aegon can come invade.

Next question is why did Illyrio give Dany the eggs, again he has to make her appealing she is tha last Dragon Princess he is just dressing her up for the Khal. They will probably do the same with Aegon he to me is a Blackfyre but for Westeros believing he is the beloved Rhaegar's son they will pair him with one of his Rhaegar's best friends and former hand of the King. To the people in Westeros if Jon Connington believes the kid is Rhaegars perhaps they will. I am positive Illyrio and Varys have other props for Aegon to look more legit. We have the chests he wants him to have which could contain eggs and the sword Blackfyre maybe even a crown of a past king. All of which I believe will be Daemon Blackfyres stuff. We still don't know if Lemore is someone well known in Westeros or the other people for that matter remember Tyrion suspects such.

My question is how will Aegon react to finding out he's been lied to and is really a Blackfyre