R+L=J v.134

[J. Stargaryen]

I think there might be a historical aspect to this.We know from the main series courtesy of Ygritte's story to Jon that he knew nothing of the Bael the Bard story.Jon was taken aback that Ygritte implied that they are of the same blood.According to the WB when speaking of the Kings beyond the Wall,there is no mention of the incident with Bael and Lord Stark's daughter from WF side.The WB goes on to state that WF may have erased this bit of history because it didn't look good on their part given what Bael was said to have done.(WB,pg.147).

Given the historical significance of replacing a daughter of Winterfell's/virtue(deflowering) with a rose as payment.It may have been seen as a dishonerable act by the Starks present.Especially if that generation knew about that story somehow.

Oh, it might well have happened. I don't discount that. And I agree that it wouldn't have been a point of pride for the Starks. Quite the opposite.

As for that generation of Starks knowing about the story, it's definitely possible of course. On the other hand, we should consider Old Nan here. If the story of Bael was known in Winterfell it probably would have been know to her. And if it was known to her, she probably would have told it to the current generation of Starks, Jon included. Yet he's never heard of Bael. So if Old Nan didn't know the story, then I'm not sure if Brandon and Rickard's generation would have either, since Old Nan had been around for a few generations.

Then again, maybe they did talk about in hushed voices, as families sometimes do. My mother's oldest brother has three sons. The first two are about 5'10" and thickly built. They're both easily identifiable as brothers, and also sons of my uncle. The youngest is about 6'5" and rope-skinny. He doesn't look like anybody in the family that I know of. Shh.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh, it might well have happened. I don't discount that. And I agree that it wouldn't have been a point of pride for the Starks. Quite the opposite.

As for that generation of Starks knowing about the story, it's definitely possible of course. On the other hand, we should consider Old Nan here. If the story of Bael was known in Winterfell it probably would have been know to her. And if it was known to her, she probably would have told it to the current generation of Starks, Jon included. Yet he's never heard of Bael. So if Old Nan didn't know the story, then I'm not sure if Brandon and Rickard's generation would have either, since Old Nan had been around for a few generations.

Then again, maybe they did talk about in hushed voices, as families sometimes do. My mother's oldest brother has three sons. The first two are about 5'10" and thickly built. They're both easily identifiable as brothers and sons of my uncle. The youngest is about 6'5" and rope-skinny. He doesn't look like anybody in the family that I know of. Shh.

Doesn't it make sense that this very old story is something the Starks would not have wanted told as it's a rather large slight against their house. It is a very pro Wildling story and seems like it would belong in there tales not so much the tales north of wall. Where the Stark perspective on the matter was a Wildling raider tricked the Starks sand Kidnapped and raped one of their daughters. Not exactly something you tell you kids. Although the Stark version of the Story if there is one is probably very different than the Wildling one.

[wolfmaid7]

Oh, it might well have happened. I don't discount that. And I agree that it wouldn't have been a point of pride for the Starks. Quite the opposite.

As for that generation of Starks knowing about the story, it's definitely possible of course. On the other hand, we should consider Old Nan here. If the story of Bael was known in Winterfell it probably would have been know to her. And if it was known to her, she probably would have told it to the current generation of Starks, Jon included. Yet he's never heard of Bael. So if Old Nan didn't know the story, then I'm not sure if Brandon and Rickard's generation would have either, since Old Nan had been around for a few generations.

Then again, maybe they did talk about in hushed voices, as families sometimes do. My mother's oldest brother has three sons. The first two are about 5'10" and thickly built. They're both easily identifiable as brothers and sons of my uncle. The youngest is about 6'5" and rope-skinny. He doesn't look like anybody in the family that I know of. Shh.

I think it would be easy to quell that story.The Starks in WF have shown if they don't want something talked about they can make that disappear really quick.

Hell even the Halfhand knew about that,i'd guess Benjen knew too but i would take a leap and say within the walls of WF that particualr story would not have been a fav.

[WeaselPie]

Doesn't it make sense that this very old story is something the Starks would not have wanted told as it's a rather large slight against their house. It is a very pro Wildling story and seems like it would belong in there tales not so much the tales north of wall. Where the Stark perspective on the matter was a Wildling raider tricked the Starks sand Kidnapped and raped one of their daughters. Not exactly something you tell you kids. Although the Stark version of the Story if there is one is probably very different than the Wildling one.

Yet Bran very matter-of-factly tells the story of the rape of his Aunt Lyanna. Not sure how what is presumed to be a real rape of a close relative in recent times can be talked about by a young boy, but an ancient story that may or may not be a fable seems to be missing from their bedtime stories.

It's more likely Ned had Nan edit her story list, much like Luwin edited his syllabus.

[markg171]

Yet Bran very matter-of-factly tells the story of the rape of his Aunt Lyanna. Not sure how what is presumed to be a real rape of a close relative in recent times can be talked about by a young boy, but an ancient story that may or may not be a fable seems to be missing from their bedtime stories.

It's more likely Ned had Nan edit her story list, much like Luwin edited his syllabus.

I don't see why people assume that the Starks wouldn't tell the story. The son ends up killing the man who raped his mother and putting down a wildling invasion. It can be told of as a way to show that the Starks won't allow injustices in the north.

[WeaselPie]

I don't see why people assume that the Starks wouldn't tell the story. The son ends up killing the man who raped his mother and putting down a wildling invasion. It can be told of as a way to show that the Starks won't allow injustices in the north.

Maybe for the same reason Bran never heard the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. And that's quite an innocuous one.

[J. Stargaryen]

Doesn't it make sense that this very old story is something the Starks would not have wanted told as it's a rather large slight against their house. It is a very pro Wildling story and seems like it would belong in there tales not so much the tales north of wall. Where the Stark perspective on the matter was a Wildling raider tricked the Starks sand Kidnapped and raped one of their daughters. Not exactly something you tell you kids. Although the Stark version of the Story if there is one is probably very different than the Wildling one.

Yes it does.

Could be. In fact, I wouldn't doubt it. But it seems like the maesters know the wildling version.

I think it would be easy to quell that story.The Starks in WF have shown if they don't want something talked about they can make that disappear really quick.

Hell even the Halfhand knew about that,i'd guess Benjen knew too but i would take a leap and say within the walls of WF that particualr story would not have been a fav.

Easy to quell to a certain extent maybe. But the maesters know about it, and so do the wildlings. So maybe it's one of those things not talked about in the hearing of Starks, but a really poorly kept secret otherwise. Plus, I think it's a story that other Houses would relish telling, since it sort of puts the Starks in their place.

[Ser Creighton]

Yet Bran very matter-of-factly tells the story of the rape of his Aunt Lyanna. Not sure how what is presumed to be a real rape of a close relative in recent times can be talked about by a young boy, but an ancient story that may or may not be a fable seems to be missing from their bedtime stories.

It's more likely Ned had Nan edit her story list, much like Luwin edited his syllabus.

Lyanna's abduction is common knowledge, rape is sometimes a presumption in the matter but no always. It is also from imediate history and was a national event.

Bael is a very old tale passed on by the Wildling Bards and freefolk North of the Wall, little of there information trickles down into the north let alone the rest of Westeros. It is something a lord or Northern King would not want spoken of. The Starks have little choice with Lyanna as the events occure within a different context and had an imapct on the entire country.

Stories and perspective, it all depends on who is telling them.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't see why people assume that the Starks wouldn't tell the story. The son ends up killing the man who raped his mother and putting down a wildling invasion. It can be told of as a way to show that the Starks won't allow injustices in the north.

Well the Stark in WF was duped by a man he insulted,a man who ate at Lord's Stark's table and deflowered Lord Stark's daughter on his own property.And to add on top of that your entire line was saved because some savage banged your daughter. Yeah i think they wouldn't want that being told.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes it does.

Could be. In fact, I wouldn't doubt it. But it seems like the maesters know the wildling version.

Easy to quell to a certain extent maybe. But the maesters know about it, and so do the wildlings. So maybe it's one of those things not talked about in the hearing of Starks, but a really poorly kept secret otherwise. Plus, I think it's a story that other Houses would relish telling, since it sort of puts the Starks in their place.

Do they? I did not remember that. It's a bit odd but then again there seems to have been Maesters who traveled searching for knowledge so not impossible at all, and you have a Maester at the Wall and some have probably spoken with a Wildling or two.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes it does.

Could be. In fact, I wouldn't doubt it. But it seems like the maesters know the wildling version.

Easy to quell to a certain extent maybe. But the maesters know about it, and so do the wildlings. So maybe it's one of those things not talked about in the hearing of Starks, but a really poorly kept secret otherwise. Plus, I think it's a story that other Houses would relish telling, since it sort of puts the Starks in their place.

In house certainly,WF is pretty isolated from the rest of the Kingdom so that in some ways works for them .I agree though i don't think this is something other houses would have brought up.Especially the houses that the Starks were friendly with.It would be in bad taste.

[wolfmaid7]

Do they? I did not remember that. It's a bit odd but then again there seems to have been Maesters who traveled searching for knowledge so not impossible at all, and you have a Maester at the Wall and some have probably spoken with a Wildling or two.

Some Maesters must have else Yandel wouldn't have spoken of it.So the Maester at the Wall might have relayed this tale.In the end though it comes down to WF achknowledging it or not.

[WeaselPie]

Lyanna's abduction is common knowledge, rape is sometimes a presumption in the matter but no always. It is also from imediate history and was a national event.

Bael is a very old tale passed on by the Wildling Bards and freefolk North of the Wall, little of there information trickles down into the north let alone the rest of Westeros. It is something a lord or Northern King would not want spoken of. The Starks have little choice with Lyanna as the events occure within a different context and had an imapct on the entire country.

Stories and perspective, it all depends on who is telling them.

Bran is practically an encyclopedia of old tales. The Night's King isn't a pleasant one either, and that one was so terrible his very name was struck from the records at the Wall. Sorry, that's not a very good parallel.

[BearQueen87]

Bran is practically an encyclopedia of old tales. The Night's King isn't a pleasant one either, and that one was so terrible his very name was struck from the records at the Wall. Sorry, that's not a very good parallel.

No, Old Nan is an encyclopedia of old tales. Bran repeats what he hears

[WeaselPie]

No, Old Nan is an encyclopedia of old tales. Bran repeats what he hears

Which wasn't certain stories.

[BearQueen87]

Which wasn't certain stories.

I don't know what you mean. Bran repeats what he overhears or is told--be it from Old Nan or servants gossiping at Winterfell, things he would hear on one of his many climbs. It doesn't really matter how many times Ned tells the servants not to gossip--they are going to gossip and the sad story of Lyanna being abducted, raped and "a war fought to win her back" is the stuff out of myth and song and easy pray for servant gossip

[Alia of the knife]

A new one, and on our way to 150. :thumbsup:

[Ser Creighton]

I don't know what you mean. Bran repeats what he overhears or is told--be it from Old Nan or servants gossiping at Winterfell, things he would hear on one of his many climbs. It doesn't really matter how many times Ned tells the servants not to gossip--they are going to gossip and the sad story of Lyanna being abducted, raped and "a war fought to win her back" is the stuff out of myth and song and easy pray for servant gossip

I believe Cat mentions hearing gossip among the servants about another subject that is not suppose to be talked about. Whispers shhhhh.

[BearQueen87]

A new one, and on our way to 150. :thumbsup:

Party at 200! Ser Creighton will supply more John Stamos!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Northern ladies have a bit more of freedom than their Southern counterparts (except Dorne). At least the ladies of Bear Island are known to fight when needed. They live in a very harsh place, after all. I suppose mostly lords wouldn't want their daughters to feel encouraged by the tale of a Lady of Winterfell hitting South with a handsome prince and running away from a marriage. So, what better way to discourage that than vilify what happened? "Yeah, she was kidnapped and raped. Stay home, lass! Men are dangerous!".