Chancho Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ned is just a single minded noble with a whiped do as you were tought mentality, the honor of the highborns means a lot to him, the honor or safety of the common people not that much, he was tought that this people should rise for him and fight for him when he demanded and honor is a black and white thing he memorized to the core, he despised anyone who would draw their own conclusions of diferent scenarios thinking outside the box and sometimes thinking about the bigger picture, he would judge them as not honorable and not trust worthy to the end. He thinks everyone should be this "Yes, mylorde is my duty..." never really using real good sense. I know he is loved and he is a good man, but i get very bothered by him sometimes, is he really thereal role model of Westeros? Does someone else feels that way?Some Ned Starks moments that can be put to discussion.Leaving to be Hand with his son in such a terrible condition. (Duty)Not resign as Hand after the whole unjustice toward his family, Lady and Mycah incident. (Duty)Didn't want to kill Daenerys and her child, to avoid possible future war. (Honor)Crown Stannis, a man the great Lords wouldn't really support and the big crisis that would follow that. (Duty, Honor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ned bent the rules, he just didn't do it lightly. The Stark's really aren't the brightest bunch, but they do have an innate wisdom. Davos is probably closer to the ideal moral standing in following his obligationsAlso you're basically just saying he should have 100% sided with family instead of his friend and the rest of the realm. Ned didn't just want to save one family, he was going to save th whole realm from future conflict.If you can really fault him it's his mercy towards Cersei Which was totally naive. Even so it would have been fine if Sansa hadn't betrayed his trust, Cersei says as much in clash.So you're basically faulting him for other people's mistakes in some of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ned is just a single minded noble with a whiped do as you were tought mentality, the honor of the highborns means a lot to him, the honor or safety of the common people not that much, he was tought that this people should rise for him and fight for him when he demanded and honor is a black and white thing he memorized to the core, he despised anyone who would draw their own conclusions of diferent scenarios thinking outside the box and sometimes thinking about the bigger picture, he would judge them as not honorable and not trust worthy to the end. He thinks everyone should be this "Yes, mylorde is my duty..." never really using real good sense. I know he is loved and he is a good man, but i get very bothered by him sometimes, is he really thereal role model of Westeros? Does someone else feels that way?Some Ned Starks moments that can be put to discussion.Leaving to be Hand with his son in such a terrible condition. (Duty)Not resign as Hand after the whole unjustice toward his family, Lady and Mycah incident. (Duty)Didn't want to kill Daenerys and her child, to avoid possible future war. (Honor)Crown Stannis, a man the great Lords wouldn't really support and the big crisis that would follow that. (Duty, Honor)Ned is just a character n a book. You shouldn't let him bother you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Not faulting, just discussing.. and him saving the realm is a bit over the top isn't... I think he sould have go home.. is not like he could do much at court, leave that whole mess behind him.. but i'm really happy as everything go down because all the chaos it create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ned is just a character n a book. You shouldn't let him bother you It's not this kind of bothering, just can't side that much with him story wise, that is all. I don't take this things serious, just like discussing the characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Something wrong with the quote system so I'll reply like this instead. Bran wouldn't get better if Ned stood beside him.He wanted to investigate the death of Jon Arryn, his old mentor.War was inevitable anyway. In fact, when Drogo finds out Dany was almost poisoned he wants to invade Westeros more than ever. Ned is also traumatized from war and doesn't want to murder children.Stannis was the rightful heir, and a better choice than Renly or any of the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Sometimes I feel really left out that I didn't get to read the version of the books with the evil Starks. That said everyone's done stupid things in their life. If you show me someone who says they haven't, I'll show you a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miodrag Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Leaving to be Hand with his son in such a terrible condition. (Duty) It's not like he can help Bran by refusing to go. Not resign as Hand after the whole unjustice toward his family, Lady and Mycah incident. (Duty) He doesn't quit at the first sign of trouble, he's not a quitter. He has his limits, however, as evidenced by the events referred to in your next point. Didn't want to kill Daenerys and her child, to avoid possible future war. (Honor) I'm not really sure what's good in killing children. Crown Stannis, a man the great Lords wouldn't really support and the big crisis that would follow that. (Duty, Honor) Considering the alternative is Cersei, Stannis doesn't look bad at all. Not to mention that he in fact is the rightful heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ned doesn't bother me. If anything I feel a little bit sorry for him. He got handed a shitty deal when his father and brother were killed by the Mad King. He then got swept into a rebellion where he played a key roll in defeating the Mad King. In the process his sister also died. As a second son of a great lord he was raised believing that his older brother would rule the North but he ended up taking on that roll himself and it is suggested that he did well in that capacity. Things didn't go bad for him until Robert made him Hand and he got caught up in the intrigue and politics of King's Landing, which he sucked at. He was a victim of the Peter Principle: The theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I love Ned he's my favorite but I do hold some things against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Yeah it was basically hand the realm to the Lannisters or go south, and if the Lannisters were that powerful, there's no just sitting in the north of they want to replace you. With the realm behind them they could take the North, at great cost yes, but it would fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser Dagonet Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 He did not want to take the position as Hand, however, his wife pushed him, and Sansa to a lesser extent. It was not despite his family he took the job, but because of his family. The injustice towards Lady and Arya in my opion only showed to Ned how desperately necessary he was to keep the kingdom from falling to ruin, after which he could not just quit. Killing children can never be justified. Also, Ned firmly believed the Dothraki would never cross the sea, so in his perspective there was no threat whatsoever. Finally, Stannis was the rightful heir, and the best person to restore order after Roberts chaotic reign imo. Having said that, he was completely blinded by his honor which was at some points mildly infuriating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 And furthermore they never were going to cross until the assassin came Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I know he is loved and he is a good man, but i get very bothered by him sometimes, is he really thereal role model of Westeros? Does someone else feels that way? You're just pointing out the point of GRRM's story: good people is able to do questionable things while bad people sometimes do things that cause good for others. Like Tywin. He was a good Hand, apparently. That doesn't mean he was not a son of a bitch that deserved many to be sent to the seven hells he probably didn't believe on. Stannis' most famous quote is one that often goes quite misunderstood but it seems to summarize GRRM's position about his heroes and villains: "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good". Ned is mostly defined by his honour and his good actions, and he's thought to be a good man. Is he able to do some bad deeds? Yes, indeed. That doesn't wash out that he's a good person inside and more inclined to do the right thing, even though he might sometimes do wrong. And just because a bad person is able to do some good, that doesn't mean he has stopped being an evil bastard. Some Ned Starks moments that can be put to discussion. Leaving to be Hand with his son in such a terrible condition. (Duty) Not resign as Hand after the whole unjustice toward his family, Lady and Mycah incident. (Duty) Ned's reasons to go to KL is not just the fact he was named Hand. He was (mis)informed of the fact Jon Arryn, the man who was pretty much his father, had been killed by the Lannisters. Ned knew, and he was correct, that the Lannisters were ambitious people who wouldn't mind murdering children to get what they wanted, which also implied danger for Robert and the realm, which he likely wanted to avoid. Didn't want to kill Daenerys and her child, to avoid possible future war. (Honor) Because Ned can see the future, right? Ned was correct in the fact the Dothrakis had no intentions to cross the Narrow Sea. Drogo had zero interest in the seven Kingdoms UNTIL they sent the first attack (which was probably manipulated and staged by Varys to cause the mayhem that he needed). And, even if they have indeed tried, they would have found a realm united. Logistically, Dany had barely any chances to succeed and find herself an army. That's something she achieved when she got her dragons, which Ned couldn't have foreseen in a hundred years. Besides, his reluctance for murdering Daenerys sets a good precedent, while murder her would have set up a bad one. Just like the Red Wedding was what completely killed the custom of guest rights and diplomacy in Westeros, having the King murdering children to "prevent" war would justify future murders of innocent children and completely eliminate the system of hostages, which are sometimes more successful on keeping peace. I mean, why not capturing the Greyjoys and then also kill Theon and Asha "in case" they grow up to avenge their father and uncles? That's the kind of justice Tywin Lannister has shown. Crown Stannis, a man the great Lords wouldn't really support and the big crisis that would follow that. (Duty, Honor) Again, absurd and once more, something that had set up a bad precedent. Stannis was the older brother, the one who had the right to inherit Robert as his heir. Crowning Renly instead would send the message that the laws of inheritance shouldn't be respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Not anymore because he is dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Yeah good points, i think Ned had no ideia how complicate and hopeless the situation were going to be, i feel like he tried really hard and still couldn't do much, instead was like his actions just push chaos to westeros quickly (Not his fault of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Not anymore because he is dead Thanks for using the spoiler tag! :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Make Shadowbabies Not War Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Sometimes I feel really left out that I didn't get to read the version of the books with the evil Starks. That said everyone's done stupid things in their life. If you show me someone who says they haven't, I'll show you a liar. You are missing out. I like the bit where Robb goes to his uncle's wedding and turns into a wolf, forcing poor Walder Frey to kill him... On topic, Ned never bothered me much. I guess it was more the fact that the reader can see his moves won't go down well that causes irritation, but I guess that just shows that (in my case) the reader cares about what happens to Ned anyway. He was not only a good and honourable person, but for most of AGOT he was our main man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Why is everytime i discuss this things.. somebody come up with me saying starks ARE EVIL! When i did that? That is the reason a brought this things up, because you start analyzing Ned Starks acts.. and suddenly i am making him evil, such a intouchable man...And is not about Bran getting better, is about staying with his family a little longer and give support.Well it's a usual thing to wipe out the line of the deposed family to avoid future conflicts.. not really about predicting the future here, is about taking possible threats, blackfyres can teach a lot about that.. just he is always fine if it comes to war with comon dying for the highborns and stuff, but kill one person directly and is the end of the world.Crowning Stannis was the right thing.. but i guess the bad thing too.. Do you guys feel the consenqueces would be the worst of all, comparing to the other scenarios? Turning a blind eye to Joffrey being a bastard and going back to the North, would that be so bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 One thing i found the majority of the time is that Ned is that guy you judge based on the opinion he has on your favourite character... My favourite character is Bob so... Ned is AWESOOOOOOME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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