Could Littlefinger be the son of...(book spoilers)

[SummerSphinx]

...the former mistress of Tytos Lannister, the candlemakers daughter?

Theory:

Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) is the child of Tytos Lannisters former mistress, a lowborn candlemakers daughter (I will call her Candy). Petyrs father is probably Tytos Lannister (father of Tywin, Kevan et al., and grandfather of Jaime, Cercei & Tyrion). Petyr is probably a bastard, but Candy may have convinced the doting Tytos to marry her before Tywin could prevent it. I speculate that some of the people who raised Petyr in the Fingers were living there in exile due to the actions of Tywin Lannister (Candy, stray Reynes, Tarbecks, others). Petyr has inherited Lannister personality traits, and he wants to play the game better than his Lannister relatives. He wants social status (land, a title, powerful positions, money, a highborn wife, heirs to inherit). However, due to the way his mother was humiliated by Tywin, Littlefinger really wants to beat the Tywin Lannister family at their own game in a way that is painful and humiliating. He wants Tyrion dead, because Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock.

The timing is right. Tytos Lannister, Tywins father, died in 267, and Littlefinger was born in 268 (according to the Wiki). Shortly after Tytos died, Tywin had Candy paraded through the streets of Lannisport naked, forcing her to tell everyone she was a whore and a thief. Cercei recalls the small folk telling her the story, implying that Candy went into exile.

Both Kevan and Cercei say she was not physically harmed. She had a significant amount of power over Tytos Lannisters household before his death.

Where did she go? I wonder if she went "wherever whores go." This makes me wonder if Tywin had her raped like Tysha, and if Tywin participated. Kevan and Cercei say she wasn't harmed, but would Tywin have let it become common knowledge?

Littlefinger has many, many Lannister personality traits. If you read the description of Lann the Clever, it sounds just like Littlefinger. He is clever, good with money, bedded a lord's daughter (Lysa), sets people within the family against one another, etc.

Littlefinger has grey green eyes. Green eyes are associated with Lannisters. He is shorter and dark haired (not associated with Lannisters) but that could be from his mother.

His background would be fairly easy to fabricate. His humble story makes him seem like he isn't a threat. Grisel could be his mother. His mom may have really attached herself to a hedge knight.

He could be the Volanqar. He could be Tywins little brother, or if Candy was gang raped like Tysha, he could be Cercei's little brother.

Word play:

Alayne = A Lann = a Lannister

Petyr suggested the name after his mom.

Petyr =Peter = Rock = Casterly Rock or the bastard name Stone.

Bael the Bard was a trickster.

Petyr Baelish = Rock Trickster = Lann the Clever

Mockingbirds mimic the sounds of insects, amphibians and other birds. Petyr is pretending to be something he isn't.

Any thoughts?

[TheLightning Lord]

:unsure:

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Not likely. Littlefinger's father is known--he fought with Hoster Tully in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

It's extremely unlikely that Tytos' mistress had time to meet and marry Lord Baelish (from the other side of Westeros) before giving birth to Tytos' child. It's also extremely unlikely that any Westerosi nobleman would wed a woman who had been publicly shamed as a whore.

Petyr's mother's name probably actually was Alayne. Tyrion is the current incarnation of Lann the Clever. And Petyr is mocking everyone!

I really feel that you are over-thinking the word play in this instance. Petyr's parallel to Bael the Bard (if there is one) is that he essentially stole Sansa out of King's Landing. But he's no Bael the Bard. As someone said on another thread, he's only Bael-ish. ;)

It's interesting to note that the "ae" combination in names tends to be Valyrian (Bael the Bard being the exception). Does House Baelish have Valyrian blood from their days pre-Braavos? Were they non-dragonriding Valyrians who want revenge against those who held them in slavery, or at least kept them from rising in Valyrian society? GRRM has said that no dragonlords in Valyria at the time of the Doom escaped, but non-dragonlords could have.

By the way, someone had an awesome crackpot theory that Littlefinger is actually the last of House Reyne and is solely after revenge on the Lannisters.

[Good Guy Garlan]

This...kind of destroys everything about LF's character and motivations

[Petyr's Little Finger]

We know that LF got into Riverrun because his dad was friends with Hoster Tully. I don't think the candlemaker's daughter had time to get to the Fingers after Tywin kicked her out.

[Daendrew]

I think LF may be the last member of the Raynes of Castamere. Why would a Lord Paramount foster this nobody child? He tells Sansa "never tell people _who you are_ and what you want."

He also names Sansa Alayne "after his mother" who may be Ellyn Tarbeck.

Hoster Tully is named "Hoster" because he was the hoster of Petyr.

"1. Tywin Lannister extinguished House Reyne, root and stem, in approximately 260 AD. House Baelish was supposedly founded in approximately 259 AD, with Petyr's father being the first Lord of House Baelish, which is just a shitty tower surrounded by a few acres of rocks. Petyr's grandfather was a landless hedge knight in the service of a sellsword company hired by House Corbray, although there are no details as to how House Baelish acquired their land and title.

2. Petyr names Sansa "Alayne Stone" when he attempts to hide her in the Vale of Arryn after sneaking her from King's Landing. Interesting. The second noble house exterminated by Tywin was House Tarbeck, which intermarried with House Reyne, and they both rebelled against House Lannister together. It was Lady Ellyn Tarbeck that imprisoned Tywin's relatives and caused him to drop the hammer of Thor on their asses. Tywin supposedly destroyed the castle with her still alive. ORLY? No name is ever given to Petyr's mother, but Petyr claims to name Sansa "Alayne" after her. Petyr's mother DID give him an interesting name, though: Petyr. The "tyr" is significant, as in the entire ASOIAF universe it is only found in the names of people born in the Westerlands, where House Lannister rules.

3. GRRM tells us that House Reyne had a VALYRIAN STEEL SWORD. This is hugely significant. In the combined ASOIAF tales and Dunk & Egg, exactly 13 Valyrian steel weapons are named, plus the axe of House Celtigar. Two of the 13 swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, are forged from another, Ice. Twyin Lannister remarks offhand that there are approximately 200 Valyrian steel weapons in the Seven Kingdoms, but until the Lannisters steal Ice from the Starks, House Lannister has none. All the weapons named have history detailed and are wielded by well-regarded fighters or major characters. Even Nightfall, of House Harlaw, a house in the shitty Iron Islands, is utilized by ultimate badass Harras Harlaw, who took on seven men at once, slaying five, and single-handidly forced an entire keep to surrender. Here are all 13:

1. Heartsbane, the only two-handed greatsword remaining after the destruction of Ice. Heartsbane is the sword of House Tarly, the one Sam was denied, and held by ultimate badass Randyll Tarly.
   
2. Lady Forlorn, of House Corbray, held by uber-badass gay pedophile Lyn Corbray.
   
3. Longclaw, bastard sword of House Mormont, given from badass Jeor Mormont to badass Jon Snow.
   
4. Nightfall, I described earlier.
   
5. Widow's Wail, now of House Baratheon (LOL I KNOW), forged from Ice, given to Joffrey Baratheon by Tywin Lannister.
   
6. Oathkeeper, now of House Tarth, forged from Ice, given to Brienne of Tarth by Jaime Lannister.
   
7. Ice. RIP.
   
8. Blackfyre, the sword of House Targaryan given to Daemon Blackfyre, who took it for his name.
   
9. Brightroar, the lost sword of House Lannister.
   
10. Dark Sister. Bloodraven's sword.
    
11. Orphan-Maker, lost sword of House Roxton. Lost in a great battle in the Dance of Dragons.
    
12. Vigilance, sword of rich and powerful House Hightower.
    

And number 13, the not-lost, never-used, owned by WHO? Valyrian steel sword Red Rain, belonging to House Drumm of the Iron Islands. The steel itself is a deep red, similar to Widow's Wail, the color of House Reyne. Supposedly a member of House Drumm stole it from another noble house, which is unnamed. That's it. No one has ever weilded it, House Drumm was present at the Kingsmoot but not in battle. Why would GRRM go through the trouble of naming a great Valyrian steel sword for nothing? I think this sword is meant for Petyr, or his descendant. "

[SummerSphinx]

Not likely. Littlefinger's father is known--he fought with Hoster Tully in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

It's extremely unlikely that Tytos' mistress had time to meet and marry Lord Baelish (from the other side of Westeros) before giving birth to Tytos' child. It's also extremely unlikely that any Westerosi nobleman would wed a woman who had been publicly shamed as a whore.

Petyr's mother's name probably actually was Alayne. Tyrion is the current incarnation of Lann the Clever. And Petyr is mocking everyone!

I really feel that you are over-thinking the word play in this instance. Petyr's parallel to Bael the Bard (if there is one) is that he essentially stole Sansa out of King's Landing. But he's no Bael the Bard. As someone said on another thread, he's only Bael-ish. ;)

It's interesting to note that the "ae" combination in names tends to be Valyrian (Bael the Bard being the exception). Does House Baelish have Valyrian blood from their days pre-Braavos? Were they non-dragonriding Valyrians who want revenge against those who held them in slavery, or at least kept them from rising in Valyrian society? GRRM has said that no dragonlords in Valyria at the time of the Doom escaped, but non-dragonlords could have.

By the way, someone had an awesome crackpot theory that Littlefinger is actually the last of House Reyne and is solely after revenge on the Lannisters.

Reasonable objections, but hardly insurmountable.

1. Timing. Petyr really doesn't have to be "in the right place" until he is sent to foster at Riverrun. I think this would give Candy 10 years to get in place, assuming people are willing to help her and tell some lies.

2. I'm assuming there are some people helping her. Tywin inspired fear, not love. He did't win friends, he cowed people. He made lots of covert enemies all over. Ned resented the Lannisters for arriving late and snatching up spoils.

3. The books are riddled with people helping pregnant women, babies, and new mothers for a long list of reasons. Sam helped Gilly and Craster's son. Jon, Gilly, and Aemon aided Mance's son. Ned was willing to help Gendry, and he risked his position to spare Danny. He treated The on fairly, though he kept him for political reasons. If R+J=L, he lied to help Jon. JonCon, Varys, Illrio, Septa Lemore, and Haldon lied and took risks for (f) Aegon, whether or not he is legit. Bronn married Lollys, even though everyone knew she was carrying a baby from rape. Yoren took risks to help Arya. Syria lost his life for Arya. Jojen, Myra, Osha, and Master Luwin helped Bran and Rickon. Hodor, too.

I agree my word play is pushing it, but it is just play. I'm not basing my whole theory on it.

I don't hate the theory that LF is a Reyne, I just thought of this one first.

[SummerSphinx]

This...kind of destroys everything about LF's character and motivations

Only if you have a strong opinion about what Littlefinger is "supposed" to be or mean. Does it change how we view him? Yes. Will some people prefer a different version? Sure.

But it still makes him very interesting, very clever, and very dangerous. It also helps explain how he got so experienced at court intrigue. Could he be born clever? Sure. But even clever people need experience, and Riverrun and the Fingers don't seem to be hot beds of intrigue.

[Kyll.Ing.]

A bit of a problem with having everybody related to another is that it shrinks the story so much. It fits with the spirit of the series that there are some "nobodies" out there, or people with unclear - and irrelevant - backgrounds. When Character X is revealed to be the lost half-brother of Character Y, and Character W turns out to be Character Z in disguise, it feels like the story goes from having a grand, continent-spanning setting with intricate character relations, to being about a comparatively small group of people influencing everything that happens. Sort of like how Star Wars turned out to have all the hijinx of the story revolve around a small Jedi family and a handful of their friends and acquantances.

As for Baelish, I'm afraid I'll lean more towards the theory of ThePosterThatWasPromised, although I wouldn't rule out the "official" story either - that Baelish's father really did have no connection to anybody else in the series. That he, essentially, is an outsider who rose to greatness and became one of the key players of the Game. It's not that fun if all the players are born into the Game, you know?

[SummerSphinx]

Tyrion is the current incarnation of Lann the Clever. And Petyr is mocking everyone!

They both can have Lannister blood. Just like there can be more than one Stark or Targaryen.

Also, Lann the Clever, Tywin, and Littlefinger are all social climbers. Tyrion is very clever, but he married a poor girl, has sympathy for Bran, and doesn't really seem to care about putting Lannisters on the Throne. He's clever, but he's not grasping.

Mockingbirds imitate the sounds of insects, amphibians, and other birds. I take that as a sign Petyr is pretending to be something he isn't.

Tywins massive distaste for and fear of social climbers is hypocritical. He was dreaming for years of making Cercei a queen, though the Lannisters had no royal blood. His treatment of other social climbers is like the pot calling the ketitle black (Kettleblack). Aerys feared Tywin's growing power, and he rejected Circei. Tywin was outraged. But he rejected Frey for Gemma, Candy for Tytos, Tysha for Tyrion, and Sansa for Littlefinger. Tyrion is not grasping like this.

[SummerSphinx]

I think LF may be the last member of the Raynes of Castamere. Why would a Lord Paramount foster this nobody child? He tells Sansa "never tell people _who you are_ and what you want."

He also names Sansa Alayne "after his mother" who may be Ellyn Tarbeck.

Hoster Tully is named "Hoster" because he was the hoster of Petyr.

"1. Tywin Lannister extinguished House Reyne, root and stem, in approximately 260 AD. House Baelish was supposedly founded in approximately 259 AD, with Petyr's father being the first Lord of House Baelish, which is just a shitty tower surrounded by a few acres of rocks. Petyr's grandfather was a landless hedge knight in the service of a sellsword company hired by House Corbray, although there are no details as to how House Baelish acquired their land and title.

2. Petyr names Sansa "Alayne Stone" when he attempts to hide her in the Vale of Arryn after sneaking her from King's Landing. Interesting. The second noble house exterminated by Tywin was House Tarbeck, which intermarried with House Reyne, and they both rebelled against House Lannister together. It was Lady Ellyn Tarbeck that imprisoned Tywin's relatives and caused him to drop the hammer of Thor on their asses. Tywin supposedly destroyed the castle with her still alive. ]

Cool theory. I like this theory, too. With my theory, Reynes could be involved - living at the Fingers. I think there is some shared thinking here, even if we come about it differently.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Reasonable objections, but hardly insurmountable.

1. Timing. Petyr really doesn't have to be "in the right place" until he is sent to foster at Riverrun. I think this would give Candy 10 years to get in place, assuming people are willing to help her and tell some lies.

2. I'm assuming there are some people helping her. Tywin inspired fear, not love. He did't win friends, he cowed people. He made lots of covert enemies all over. Ned resented the Lannisters for arriving late and snatching up spoils.

3. The books are riddled with people helping pregnant women, babies, and new mothers for a long list of reasons. Sam helped Gilly and Craster's son. Jon, Gilly, and Aemon aided Mance's son. Ned was willing to help Gendry, and he risked his position to spare Danny. He treated The on fairly, though he kept him for political reasons. If R+J=L, he lied to help Jon. JonCon, Varys, Illrio, Septa Lemore, and Haldon lied and took risks for (f) Aegon, whether or not he is legit. Bronn married Lollys, even though everyone knew she was carrying a baby from rape. Yoren took risks to help Arya. Syria lost his life for Arya. Jojen, Myra, Osha, and Master Luwin helped Bran and Rickon. Hodor, too.

I agree my word play is pushing it, but it is just play. I'm not basing my whole theory on it.

I don't hate the theory that LF is a Reyne, I just thought of this one first.

I wasn't talking about Petyr being in the right place. I was talking about his MOTHER being in the right place. You have her getting paraded in the streets of Lannisport in the early stages of pregnancy, crossing the continent, meeting Lord Baelish, and charming him into marrying her and claiming her bastard son as his in less than nine months. That's a pretty fast relationship progression. If Petyr had been born before his mother married Lord Baelish, it wouldn't have worked passing him off as a trueborn.

They both can have Lannister blood. Just like there can be more than one Stark or Targaryen.

Also, Lann the Clever, Tywin, and Littlefinger are all social climbers. Tyrion is very clever, but he married a poor girl, has sympathy for Bran, and doesn't really seem to care about putting Lannisters on the Throne. He's clever, but he's not grasping.

Mockingbirds imitate the sounds of insects, amphibians, and other birds. I take that as a sign Petyr is pretending to be something he isn't.

Tywins massive distaste for and fear of social climbers is hypocritical. He was dreaming for years of making Cercei a queen, though the Lannisters had no royal blood. His treatment of other social climbers is like the pot calling the ketitle black (Kettleblack). Aerys feared Tywin's growing power, and he rejected Circei. Tywin was outraged. But he rejected Frey for Gemma, Candy for Tytos, Tysha for Tyrion, and Sansa for Littlefinger. Tyrion is not grasping like this.

Lann the Clever wasn't necessarily a social climber. He was a trickster. It was through trickery that he got Casterly Rock away from the Casterleys and for all we know he did it because someone bet him he couldn't. Tyrion doesn't have to care about putting Lannisters on the throne when they're already there. In a way Tyrion is absolutely a social climber because his ambition is to rule the Rock, which very few of the nobles in Westeros would ever consider. He wants to climb above the rumors and lies that people have told about him and become a leader of note.

Petyr mocks. He mimics the higherborn yes, but he is secretly mocking them the whole time because they can be manipulated. His entire motivation is to prove to everyone that he was in fact good enough for Hoster Tully's daughter, that Cat would have been better off married to him. In short that he's something he's not.

I agree that Tywin is a hypocrite in some respects, but the Lannisters do have ancient royal blood. Before Aegon I came swooping in with his dragons House Lannister were Kings of the Rock. It wasn't his call who Genna married. The other leading candidate besides Emmon Frey was one of the Reynes, and Tywin didn't like them either. Candy, as you call her, was not his father's wife and she was running around acting like she was, even to wearing jewelry that had belonged to Tywin's mother. He felt (and somewhat rightly so) that it was disrespectful to his mother's memory. Tyrion and Tysha is absolutely the worst thing he ever did to stop a relationship. He said Littlefinger couldn't have Sansa because he wanted House Lannister to have Winterfell and the North--that one was political and had nothing to do with his personal beliefs.

[shadow282]

I think he's a Targaryen. Because god forbid any character doesn't have a secret relationship to an important person/house. What is this supposed to be, an area the size of South America? How can everyone NOT be related?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think LF may be the last member of the Raynes of Castamere. Why would a Lord Paramount foster this nobody child? He tells Sansa "never tell people _who you are_ and what you want."

He also names Sansa Alayne "after his mother" who may be Ellyn Tarbeck.

Hoster Tully is named "Hoster" because he was the hoster of Petyr.

"1. Tywin Lannister extinguished House Reyne, root and stem, in approximately 260 AD. House Baelish was supposedly founded in approximately 259 AD, with Petyr's father being the first Lord of House Baelish, which is just a shitty tower surrounded by a few acres of rocks. Petyr's grandfather was a landless hedge knight in the service of a sellsword company hired by House Corbray, although there are no details as to how House Baelish acquired their land and title.

2. Petyr names Sansa "Alayne Stone" when he attempts to hide her in the Vale of Arryn after sneaking her from King's Landing. Interesting. The second noble house exterminated by Tywin was House Tarbeck, which intermarried with House Reyne, and they both rebelled against House Lannister together. It was Lady Ellyn Tarbeck that imprisoned Tywin's relatives and caused him to drop the hammer of Thor on their asses. Tywin supposedly destroyed the castle with her still alive. ORLY? No name is ever given to Petyr's mother, but Petyr claims to name Sansa "Alayne" after her. Petyr's mother DID give him an interesting name, though: Petyr. The "tyr" is significant, as in the entire ASOIAF universe it is only found in the names of people born in the Westerlands, where House Lannister rules.

3. GRRM tells us that House Reyne had a VALYRIAN STEEL SWORD. This is hugely significant. In the combined ASOIAF tales and Dunk & Egg, exactly 13 Valyrian steel weapons are named, plus the axe of House Celtigar. Two of the 13 swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, are forged from another, Ice. Twyin Lannister remarks offhand that there are approximately 200 Valyrian steel weapons in the Seven Kingdoms, but until the Lannisters steal Ice from the Starks, House Lannister has none. All the weapons named have history detailed and are wielded by well-regarded fighters or major characters. Even Nightfall, of House Harlaw, a house in the shitty Iron Islands, is utilized by ultimate badass Harras Harlaw, who took on seven men at once, slaying five, and single-handidly forced an entire keep to surrender. Here are all 13:

1. Heartsbane, the only two-handed greatsword remaining after the destruction of Ice. Heartsbane is the sword of House Tarly, the one Sam was denied, and held by ultimate badass Randyll Tarly.

Lady Forlorn, of House Corbray, held by uber-badass gay pedophile Lyn Corbray.

Longclaw, bastard sword of House Mormont, given from badass Jeor Mormont to badass Jon Snow.

Nightfall, I described earlier.

Widow's Wail, now of House Baratheon (LOL I KNOW), forged from Ice, given to Joffrey Baratheon by Tywin Lannister.

Oathkeeper, now of House Tarth, forged from Ice, given to Brienne of Tarth by Jaime Lannister.

Ice. RIP.

Blackfyre, the sword of House Targaryan given to Daemon Blackfyre, who took it for his name.

Brightroar, the lost sword of House Lannister.

Dark Sister. Bloodraven's sword.

Orphan-Maker, lost sword of House Roxton. Lost in a great battle in the Dance of Dragons.

Vigilance, sword of rich and powerful House Hightower.

And number 13, the not-lost, never-used, owned by WHO? Valyrian steel sword Red Rain, belonging to House Drumm of the Iron Islands. The steel itself is a deep red, similar to Widow's Wail, the color of House Reyne. Supposedly a member of House Drumm stole it from another noble house, which is unnamed. That's it. No one has ever weilded it, House Drumm was present at the Kingsmoot but not in battle. Why would GRRM go through the trouble of naming a great Valyrian steel sword for nothing? I think this sword is meant for Petyr, or his descendant. "

Because the kid's father saved his life in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. That's why.

Hoster is not named Hoster because he was hosting Petyr. The term for that is fostering, not hosting. If he'd been named Foster Tully you might have a point there.

Except of course for the fact that Petyr is GRRM's varation on Peter, just as Eddard is a variation on Edward, Walder is the Westerosi Walter...shall I go on? It's not true that names are only used in one region. There are Targ names all over the place, and there's Tyrion Tanner. I'm sure there are others. The Lannister tradition is names that START with Ty, not have it buried in the second syllable.

I don't think it makes sense to have Ice, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail all on the same list. It would actually make more sense from a story/plot standpoint if you could get to thirteen named swords prior to Ice's being melted down. The number 13 has a history in the series. Or even 12 swords, to mirror the 12 companions of the Last Hero who died.

Nice catch on Red Rain, but...Petyr's not a fighter. He solves all of his problems with money, threats, or double-talk. He probably hasn't picked up a sword since Brandon kicked his butt. What purpose would it serve to put a VS sword in his hands? From here going forward, what does Petyr being the last scion of House Reyne have to do with the plot? He's not taking out the Lannisters, they're doing that themselves. So what purpose would this serve in the narrative? Not saying it's impossible or anything, I've just never understood the point.

[SummerSphinx]

I wasn't talking about Petyr being in the right place. I was talking about his MOTHER being in the right place. You have her getting paraded in the streets of Lannisport in the early stages of pregnancy, crossing the continent, meeting Lord Baelish, and charming him into marrying her and claiming her bastard son as his in less than nine months. That's a pretty fast relationship progression. If Petyr had been born before his mother married Lord Baelish, it wouldn't have worked passing him off as a trueborn.

Lann the Clever wasn't necessarily a social climber. He was a trickster. It was through trickery that he got Casterly Rock away from the Casterleys and for all we know he did it because someone bet him he couldn't. Tyrion doesn't have to care about putting Lannisters on the throne when they're already there. In a way Tyrion is absolutely a social climber because his ambition is to rule the Rock, which very few of the nobles in Westeros would ever consider. He wants to climb above the rumors and lies that people have told about him and become a leader of note.

Petyr mocks. He mimics the higherborn yes, but he is secretly mocking them the whole time because they can be manipulated. His entire motivation is to prove to everyone that he was in fact good enough for Hoster Tully's daughter, that Cat would have been better off married to him. In short that he's something he's not.

I agree that Tywin is a hypocrite in some respects, but the Lannisters do have ancient royal blood. Before Aegon I came swooping in with his dragons House Lannister were Kings of the Rock. It wasn't his call who Genna married. The other leading candidate besides Emmon Frey was one of the Reynes, and Tywin didn't like them either. Candy, as you call her, was not his father's wife and she was running around acting like she was, even to wearing jewelry that had belonged to Tywin's mother. He felt (and somewhat rightly so) that it was disrespectful to his mother's memory. Tyrion and Tysha is absolutely the worst thing he ever did to stop a relationship. He said Littlefinger couldn't have Sansa because he wanted House Lannister to have Winterfell and the North--that one was political and had nothing to do with his personal beliefs.

Candy only has to do it in 9 months if Baelish isn't in on it. But perhaps Baelish could be bought, fell in love, or had difficulty finding a bride willing to move to the Fingers.

JonCon entered the picture years after Aegon was born. Candy doesn't have to snag Baelish before Petyr is born if Baelish lies. I doubt someone like Hoster ever visited the Fingers. He wouldn't necessarily recognize Baelish's wife, know if he was married or when, or know if he had kids. There was a huge difference in status. Heck, Tully could be in on it. Not saying he is, but why would Tully love Tywin?

All somebody has to do is say "Hi, Baelish. We will do you this huge favor if you pretend this beautiful woman is your wife and pretend her son is yours, no questions." (Even if the Petyr was older.) Bronn would do it. Sam was willing to pretend to his parents he fathered Gilly's child.

No one at the Fingers has to know her real name, and nobody there would recognize her due to the distance from Lannisport.

[SummerSphinx]

I agree that Tywin is a hypocrite in some respects, but the Lannisters do have ancient royal blood. Before Aegon I came swooping in with his dragons House Lannister were Kings of the Rock. It wasn't his call who Genna married. The other leading candidate besides Emmon Frey was one of the Reynes, and Tywin didn't like them either. Candy, as you call her, was not his father's wife and she was running around acting like she was, even to wearing jewelry that had belonged to Tywin's mother. He felt (and somewhat rightly so) that it was disrespectful to his mother's memory. Tyrion and Tysha is absolutely the worst thing he ever did to stop a relationship. He said Littlefinger couldn't have Sansa because he wanted House Lannister to have Winterfell and the North--that one was political and had nothing to do with his personal beliefs.

You are right, they were kings. I was thinking that b/c Lann tricked the Casterlys out of the Rock they weren't real kings. But you are right, they did become kings.

It was still a big step up to aim for the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, though. And Aerys seemed to take it poorly.

I still don't think Tyrion is grasping. Cercei, Tywin, and Lann all seem to want more, more, more. More than their "fair share." More than what they were born into. They try to take down the competition, and almost everyone is the competition. Where did the Casterlys go? Where did the Reynes go? Tyrion wanting the Rock, Tyrion wanting to travel like his uncles, Tyrion wanting parental acknowledgment - he is being excluded from things that arguably should have been his by birth. He gave Joffery a book, not a weapon encrusted with jewels. His values were different. Tyrion gets very upset with people, but he doesn't send them to Qyburn to get them out of the way. He doesn't exterminate whole families. He doesn't murder babies to curry favor. Killing Shae and Tywin was a crime of passion, not a cold political move.

Just because Petyr mocks lords, I don't see that disproving my theory. Cercei, Jaime, Tyrion -when you get inside their heads, they are all very cynical, critical, and mocking.

I think it natural that Tywin and his siblings would resent their widowed father's new love interest. Tytos seemed prone to manipulation even before he was an old widower. I think they feared embarrassment, but I think they also feared losing part of their inheritance to Candy and any children she might have-legitimate or otherwise. Tytos seems like the sort of Lord who could be persuaded into marrying a beautiful, lowborn woman in his old age.

But why shouldn't a widower seek his own happiness? Why is Candy worse than any noblewoman given as a political bargaining pawn? Why shouldn't Tyrion marry Tysha? I don't really expect Tywin to like these matches, but it is own financial self interest, social status, and snobby political system he is fighting for - not some noble cause.

I agree there were political reasons for marrying Tyrion to Sansa, but one of those political considerations was preventing Littlefinger from getting too high. A marriage to Tyrion Lannister provoked the North, and it caused Robb to put something in writing naming another heir. Not that his document has been revealed, yet. But, yes, Tywin was grasping for the North, too. Notice the degree to which Tyrion was the opposite of grasping in his relationship to Sansa.

I still beleive Littlefinger is like the Lannisters and Lann the Clever. I don't think my theory diminishes him. He is either a secret bastard who was hidden "nowhere" in the Fingers, or a secret legit child of an embarrassing late-in-life marriage to a lowborn woman who hid herself in the middle of nowhere in the Fingers. He still needs to climb a very long way to get where he is.

[Lord Damian]

Littlefinger may have other connections that have enabled him to obtain much of his power and I am not talking about the Lannisters. I think there is a connection with Varys and Illyrio and I suspect he knows about Aegon.

[SummerSphinx]

Littlefinger may have other connections that have enabled him to obtain much of his power and I am not talking about the Lannisters. I think there is a connection with Varys and Illyrio and I suspect he knows about Aegon.

I've wondered about that, too. But I don't think so. It isn't a competitive game if everyone is on the same team.

There need to be a few strong players who are at odds.

When Arya overheard Varys and Illrio in the dungeons, Illyrio complained everything was going too fast. I don't think Varys knew about or wanted LF's plans.

Also, Varys spiriting Tyrion out is a foil to LF. I think Tywin and Shae's deaths were not part of LF's plan. Shae may have been an agent for LF.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Candy only has to do it in 9 months if Baelish isn't in on it. But perhaps Baelish could be bought, fell in love, or had difficulty finding a bride willing to move to the Fingers.

JonCon entered the picture years after Aegon was born. Candy doesn't have to snag Baelish before Petyr is born if Baelish lies. I doubt someone like Hoster ever visited the Fingers. He wouldn't necessarily recognize Baelish's wife, know if he was married or when, or know if he had kids. There was a huge difference in status. Heck, Tully could be in on it. Not saying he is, but why would Tully love Tywin?

<snip

It's not about loving him. It's about not crossing him. And Hoster Tully had no problem with the idea of marrying his daughter Lysa to Tywin's precious Jaime so chances are there was a bit of respect there. Tywin was apparently ok with the match too, up until Jaime went and got Kingsguarded.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Littlefinger may have other connections that have enabled him to obtain much of his power and I am not talking about the Lannisters. I think there is a connection with Varys and Illyrio and I suspect he knows about Aegon.

I'm almost certain LF knows about Aegon. I wouldn't expect him and Varys to be on the same team though. In fact I expect his downfall to be in part because Sansa learns that he was the one who convinced Joffrey to kill Ned, and Varys will be the one to tell her.