Jump to content

Hey, I'm new. Also, Ned's alive.


Ned the Living

Recommended Posts

Before I post this, I know this is an old theory. I'm just going to hit the high notes, though. What I really want to do is counter the objections to it. Here we go. Ned is alive because:

-The POV is suspect. Arya witnesses it, but isn't that odd? Almost every death or near death from a POV character is told from their own perspective. When Catelyn is slain, it's in her chapter. When Brienne is nearly hanged, it's her chapter. When Jon Snow is betrayed on the wall, it's his chapter. My suggestion is that it isn't him and he therefore can't be the POV. "He was thinner than Arya had ever seen him, his long face drawn with pain". She identifies him first by his CLOTHING. His actual facial appearance is suspect.

-Sansa thinks the same thing when she sees his head: "It did not really look like Lord Eddard, she thought; it did not even look real". Italics are as they are in the book. It's like he's pointing it out for us.

-Catelyn says his skeleton looks too small, and though it describes the bones in detail, even mentioning how it's held together with metal threads, it does NOT mention a broken leg. Well, maybe it healed. No, back to Arya's POV, "He was not standing so much as being held up; the cast over his broken leg was grey and rotten".

-There's clearly a method and a motive to get him out. It points out that Tyrion is held in the exact same cell Ned was in before he was freed by Varys, Ned's last visitor. Varys wants Tyrion, a major House heir, on his side for his agenda with Aegon/Danaerys. Ned is also a major House leader, and the North is great deal more loyal to his name than Casterly Rock is to Tyrion. We know Varys is a master of disguise, and aside from that, we have the Faceless Men and Melisandre with their own respective methods of changing appearances, so it's not uncommon in the series.

Now, I really want to dismiss the dismissive comments people usually throw out about this theory:

-Dude, his head's on a pike! Yes, so are Bran's, Rickon's, and Davos's and all of those people are kickin'. In fact, I think Ned would be the ONLY head on a pike in the whole series that was actually the person it was supposed to be.

-C'mon man, everyone saw his execution, there were too many witnesses. Yes, that's why Manse Rayder's dead. In fact, Manse Rayder's execution was in close proximity to several of the people he was closest to, yet he lives. Ned's execution was not so. What does the book say about where everyone is during his execution: "Clustered around the doors of the sept, in front of the raised marble pulpit, were a knot of knights and high lords. Joffrey was prominent among them... His queen mother stood beside him... And their in their midst was Sansa". So, everyone is by the doors to the sept. I don't know that we get a detailed layout of Baelor's Sept, but we do know that it is ENORMOUS. Tyrion, when going to the east, marvels that another structure is even bigger than Baelor's Sept which means it was his previous benchmark for a huge building. In our modern Earth churches, the door is the farthest thing from the pulpit. Now, the sept is seven-sided, so it may be that the pulpit is in the center, but either way, the building is massive and the people that know Ned's face are by the door, not near Ned. The people we know are close to Ned are the high septon who doesn't know Ned from a Whitewalker and Ilyn Payne who does know Ned's face, but he's not saying anything.

-If he's alive then where's he been for four books? Either in Greywater Watch with Howland Reed or in the East. Where has Aegon been for the first 5 books? Where has Danaerys been? If we weren't in her head, we'd only hear her rumors as she has not been to Westeros in all this time. Varys is keeping his little projects out of sight and safe elsewhere. From a writing perspective, GRRM is just saving it for one knock-you-on-your-ass awesome reveal.

If Ned IS still alive, think of the book and how everything is playing out over and over again. Fake heads on pikes. Fake executions that everyone sees. Escaping Ned's same cell. House leaders disappearing and joining Varys. Perfect and near perfect disguises. There's nothing that can't be explained with other things we've seen in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, c'mon. The very next question says that it's not impossible that he's coming back. Catelyn was dead too. Beric Dondarrion was dead like 100 times. Like he's not going to lie about the most amazing plot twist of all time.

Sure. But coming back != alive.

And the "very next question" is not a question at all, but the reporter's pipe dream, because Ned being dead sucks (even if it's necessary for the story, and it is).

As for other characters being absent for years... well sure, but those characters' family is not being systematically destroyed by their enemies, so the comparison to Dany or Aegon doesn't hold up.

CAN GRRM, if he so desires, bring back Ned? Well sure, anything's possible. But nothing points to it.

I don't know why I'm arguing though, I mean if the author saying "Ned is dead" is not enough for you, I don't know what is.

As for GRRM not denying this or that outside possibility, it means nothing. If he started denying points, but refusing to answer others, he would indirectly be answering them anyway. Therefore, the only thing he can do is to not address any one of them specifically.

I can only try to imagine what having all these massive spoilers in your head is like, while having to navigate absurdly intricate questions from fans, without giving anything away - and from two separate stories (show and books), no less. No wonder he's sometimes being coy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If, IF, Ned is alive and hiding away with Howland Reed, who better to tell Jon of his parentage?



I want to believe Ned is alive just for that reason, but I suspect he is dead.



Oh, can you imagine the show bosses going up to Sean Bean for season seven, saying "Hi, Sean, you are back for the show to tell Kit (Harrington, actor playing Jon Snow, as if I need to remind you) that you are not his daddy. We start filming Monday, see you then!"


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe it's always fun to speculate even when there is no hope... my personal favoured crackpot thing is that Benjen was kidnapped by Varys or associates and switched with Ned believing he would just be returned to the Night's Watch. Perhaps a glamour was used, or just Varys' impressive talent for disguises, who can say? Ned would be shipped off to somewhere like Greywater Watch. Perhaps GRRM meant that the person who we thought was Ned is dead, aka Benjen.



Ah well, speculation is fun but facts are fun too. And Ned's dead.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's say you're right, and the bodies were switched so that Ned is still alive. What is gained in a story telling perspective? Nothing. I think that the series would lose an awful lot of credibility, as the fact that Martin had the audacity to kill off such a big character was the defining part of the first book, and still carries weight now. Almost every POV is affected by Ned dying, it was the most defining event of the series until the Red Wedding. I mean, imagine what would happen in the North if Ned rolled up now. Manderly's Rickon plot would be forgotten, Robb's will abandoned and everything to do with the Stark kid's growth made redundant in many ways. So for me, the biggest bit of evidence that Ned is dead is that Martin is writing a story that desires him to be so.


Also, welcome to the boards!


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's say you're right, and the bodies were switched so that Ned is still alive. What is gained in a story telling perspective?

Did you read my post?

If, IF, Ned is alive and hiding away with Howland Reed, who better to tell Jon of his parentage?

The best story telling reason of all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you read my post?

The best story telling reason of all.

I did, but I disagree. I don't think who tells Jon is as important as the fact he is told. I also feel that it would be more powerful if Jon finds out that Ned had lied to him his whole life, thus subverting his opinion of Ned as being too honourable to lie. It would also, as I have already mentioned take away from Rickon's story, Jon's story (in relation to Robb's will) and also Sansa's story as she learns to master the game in order to avenge the loss of her family, Arya's as she loses her sStark identity due to the loss of her family and Stoneheart's as she lost everything. Is it worth taking away from the journeys and development each character has undergone for five books in response to the loss of their parental figures just for a shock reveal? I personally don't think so.

Edit: I understand that Stoneheart doesn't fit with the 'lost parent' motif, but Cat did start to unravel after losing Ned, starting something that ended with Stoneheart, so I put her in too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well. I can say one thing. If D&D chose not to include Lady Stoneheart, maybe they were saving a big back-from-the-dead reveal for Lord Wolfheart.



Ned is as dead as anyone else in the novels, I suppose.



Ned's death was the catalyst for a whole host of events that ruined his family and caused the death of his wife and son. Why would he hide away from that and not protect them?



I wrote the previous sentence and realized Lyanna did something similar to her family when she disappeared.



Anyway, I believe he's well and truly dead. Considering otherwise is a can of graveworms that is possibly too wriggly for even GRRM's knack for shocking twists. LS is twist enough.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's for a moment agree that Ned is alive and Varys saved him. Where would he go? He would go to Winterfell obviously and either raise the banners as his son did, join them or put a strong defence on Moat Cailin. Imagine the northern army suddenly led by Ned Stark. Quite a different army, quite a different strategy. Robb would probably be alive, Bran and Rickon would still be in WF and so on. Tywin would have been in serious trouble. None of that happened.



Secondly, I like your point about the lack of Ned's POV. But, we know that Ned kept Lyanna's secrets and maybe in that chapter these secrets would have been partly revealed, which is not something the author would choose to do so early on. Therefore I believe that is why we lack Ned's POV prior to execution.



Thirdly, your arguments are interesting and well put together. So, I hope you are right and Ned is the Ghost of Winterfell. Now, that would have been a U-turn.



Therefore, I'd say Ned is dead, but there is a small door of possibility to think otherwise. It's GRRM after all.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

GRRM is too good for that. Ned's death was extremely important in a multitude of ways, the two main ones being the events it set in motion in the story and the fact that GRRM wanted to show that main characters are not safe. To bring Ned back would totally cheapen the entire series, especially if he used the same tricks he's used for other characters. There is no way this is happening.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...