So let's say Ashara Dayne IS Quaithe...how?

[Mithras]

Quaithe can send images from half a world away with a glass candle, which is like a thousand times harder than simple glamors.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Lady Blizzardborn, I know we don't know that it was Ned who spread the story but there is another connection besides the Ashara mention in Cats POV, there is also Edric mentioning that Jon and him shared a wet nurse, and we are told that Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, presumably where Ashara was and killed herself.

[Mithras]

Marwyn apparently lit a glass candle and watched the North. But he also wanted Sam to tell him everything again. That means the glass candles might have a symbolic language just like prophecies (like Targaryens appearing as dragons etc.)

But nothing suggests that Marwyn can use the glass candle at full capacity. Nothing suggests that he can send visions and dreams like Quaithe does.

We know that Quaithe is able to project her image. Hell, she made her face out of stars and talked to Dany in the Dothraki Sea. She might be sending dreams to Dany right from the beginning.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Marwyn apparently lit a glass candle and watched the North. But he also wanted Sam to tell him everything again. That means the glass candles might have a symbolic language just like prophecies (like Targaryens appearing as dragons etc.)

But nothing suggests that Marwyn can use the glass candle at full capacity. Nothing suggests that he can send visions and dreams like Quaithe does.

We know that Quaithe is able to project her image. Hell, she made her face out of stars and talked to Dany in the Dothraki Sea. She might be sending dreams to Dany right from the beginning.

Again, ok.

Again, that doesn't prove Ashara couldn't become Quaithe. Given that we know the Daynes have First Men blood AND a mystical family sword (it's made of an unknown material even if it doesn't choose worthy knights), it's not a huge stretch to think Quaithe is a result of Ashara's innate abilities + decade and a half of study. In fact Ashara potentially having innate powers that enable her to do more with the candle than Marwyn was part of my OP.

And this probably counts as quibbling, but we actually do not know the comparative difficulty of casting a glamour vs. using a glass candle.

[Oafkeeper]

Lets not say that and furthermore lets ignore anyone who does says that as unfit for polite society.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Say which?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Quaithe can send images from half a world away with a glass candle, which is like a thousand times harder than simple glamors.

Now that magic is back in the world, suddenly the glass candles are working. We have zero evidence of Quaithe being able to do a thing with a glass candle before the hatching of the dragons, the Others' reappearance, or any of the other evidence of magic returning to the world. It's quite possible that she couldn't do it before, and can now not because she has so much experience, but because it's possible now when it wasn't in the past.

Lady Blizzardborn, I know we don't know that it was Ned who spread the story but there is another connection besides the Ashara mention in Cats POV, there is also Edric mentioning that Jon and him shared a wet nurse, and we are told that Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, presumably where Ashara was and killed herself.

Yes, Edric Dayne, who was born years after the supposed event and heard about it from his aunt, who may or may not have been old enough to know what was going on, and as far as we know did not witness it. Both Allyria and Edric would have been told the official story, so that they couldn't accidentally spill the beans.

We know for a fact that Ned went to Starfall. We know for a fact that Ashara disappeared after Ned left. We know for a fact that Ashara was said to have committed suicide by throwing herself into the sea from the tallest tower of Starfall. We know for a fact that her body was never found. We do not know for a fact, that she actually killed herself or even attempted it.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

My only issue with Ashara being anyone is where does GRRM draw the line on secret identities and fake deaths? While I could make an argument for individuals still being alive, hidden away, waiting for the right time to show themselves...or being someone else in disguise...when I look at it as a whole...it become ridiculous.

I love talking about how Arthur Dayne could be alive with Howland Reed in the Neck. Ashara Dayne could be the Lemon Tree in Braavos. Rhaegar is the Elder Brother. Shiera Seastar is Quaithe. Etc. Etc. Etc.

But where do we draw the line? I'm sure we will have a few other hidden identities revealed.

Lem Lemoncloak is probably Richard Lonmouth.

Sandor Clegane the gravedigger.

Gregor Clegane, Robert Strong.

Griff is JonCon.

3EC is Brynden Rivers.

So that is my scientific, irrefutable evidence that Ashara is dead...:P.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My only issue with Ashara being anyone is where does GRRM draw the line on secret identities and fake deaths? While I could make an argument for individuals still being alive, hidden away, waiting for the right time to show themselves...or being someone else in disguise...when I look at it as a whole...it become ridiculous.

I love talking about how Arthur Dayne could be alive with Howland Reed in the Neck. Ashara Dayne could be the Lemon Tree in Braavos. Rhaegar is the Elder Brother. Shiera Seastar is Quaithe. Etc. Etc. Etc.

But where do we draw the line? I'm sure we will have a few other hidden identities revealed.

Lem Lemoncloak is probably Richard Lonmouth.

Sandor Clegane the gravedigger.

Gregor Clegane, Robert Strong.

Griff is JonCon.

3EC is Brynden Rivers.

So that is my scientific, irrefutable evidence that Ashara is dead... :P.

The line is the purpose needed. From the examples you put, Sandor, Gregor, Griff and 3EC weren't exactly a secret. It's pretty much revealed in the same book they're introduced. Actually, mostly secret identities are revealed (or hinted) in the same book they're introduced and we hurriedly find out who they are. It's not like the books have endless secret identities waiting to be revealed.

Lem/Lonmouth is a different thing. He's definitely not an important player/character as the others, so, his revelation wouldn't come as a game changing plot. Nevertheless, if he's who we believe him to be, he still has motivations: guilt, regret, etc. The purpose could be similar to JonCon, give us, the readers, a different perspective of the Rebellion. Jon, Arthur and his friends probably were very loyal to him, and we've often debated how the Rebellion wasn't his fault. Yet, maybe, Lonmouth betrayed him because he considered his beliefs and actions crazy and he disapproved this nonsense talking about prophecies and removing Aerys. And the reason we consider Lem as Lonmouth is because Lonmouth is MIA. There is no given explanation of where is he. We know what happened to the rest of Rhaegar's entourage except him. That has to be suspicious.

That doesn't happen with Ashara. Her death isn't as shady as Jon's. Jon "died somewhere in Essos". No one saw him, no one cared. But Ashara was a noble lady who probably was surrounded with maids and servants. She can't just disappear. And if she did, she wouldn't go so far until someone found her. Her death is very poetic, and probably the only way to end things fast. Someone had to see her, enough for them to even know what tower she jump from and to look for her body.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The line is the purpose needed. From the examples you put, Sandor, Gregor, Griff and 3EC weren't exactly a secret. It's pretty much revealed in the same book they're introduced. Actually, mostly secret identities are revealed (or hinted) in the same book they're introduced and we hurriedly find out who they are. It's not like the books have endless secret identities waiting to be revealed.

Lem/Lonmouth is a different thing. He's definitely not an important player/character as the others, so, his revelation wouldn't come as a game changing plot. Nevertheless, if he's who we believe him to be, he still has motivations: guilt, regret, etc. The purpose could be similar to JonCon, give us, the readers, a different perspective of the Rebellion. Jon, Arthur and his friends probably were very loyal to him, and we've often debated how the Rebellion wasn't his fault. Yet, maybe, Lonmouth betrayed him because he considered his beliefs and actions crazy and he disapproved this nonsense talking about prophecies and removing Aerys. And the reason we consider Lem as Lonmouth is because Lonmouth is MIA. There is no given explanation of where is he. We know what happened to the rest of Rhaegar's entourage except him. That has to be suspicious.

That doesn't happen with Ashara. Her death isn't as shady as Jon's. Jon "died somewhere in Essos". No one saw him, no one cared. But Ashara was a noble lady who probably was surrounded with maids and servants. She can't just disappear. And if she did, she wouldn't go so far until someone found her. Her death is very poetic, and probably the only way to end things fast. Someone had to see her, enough for them to even know what tower she jump from and to look for her body.

True they were not exactly secrets...just as Barristan Selmy. Wasn't he the only "secret identity" to appear as Whitebeard in ACoK and reveal himself in ASoS?

And it is pure speculation on Lem/Lonmouth...just like with all the other speculations.

I honestly think the longer we wait for the books, the more insane secret identities we're going to find/speculate about. Such as Old Nan being Adara from The Ice Dragon (a book not known to be in the same universe). :D

Ashara being noble, like you said, makes me believe that she is dead. If she was alive, someone would talk. Someone always talks.

Unless, she is living in the neck with her brother, Oswell Whent, Georld Hightower and Lyanna! Dun dun DUUUNNN...

They are waiting on word from Eddard Stark on when it will be safe to come out of hiding but since no one can find Greywater Watch, not even Ravens (and it was mentioned that Eddard had sent Ravens to Howland Reed with no response) they are clueless. Howland sends his kids to find out what is going on but they make the executive decision to help Bran, forgetting to send word back home!

NAILED IT!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Here's my take on it. She never jumped. We have no first-hand, or even second-hand accounts of that happening. There aren't even any details. Time of day. Suicide note. Previous mentions of having nothing left to live for, etc.

She became a shadow-binder because Rhaegar had a dream that TDtwP needed a shadowbinder and so far as I know they're all female. Ashara was the only person in the in-crowd at court who had basically no life left in Westeros. So she went to Asshai in secret, possibly after performing some other service for House Targaryen (also in secret), to be of help to Rhaegar's son or whoever else ended up being TDtwP.

As to your theory...

1. She doesn't need to have jumped, slipped, or been pushed. Again we have no witnesses. No one who claims to have seen her jump. The only info we have is from Barristan (who was nowhere near Starfall) and her nephew Edric who wasn't even born yet!

2. She didn't need to be disfigured. All shadowbinders wear masks, except apparently Mel. But Mel isn't just a shadowbinder, she's also a red priestess. The red laquered mask is one of the ways shadowbinders are known in the series.

3. If she actually did fall from the tower, sure. But if it was at night she still doesn't need to be disfigured. Most smallfolk and foreigners wouldn't know what Lady Ashara looked like anyway.

4. Actually it's not a northern thing. Euron mentions crows and dreams and flying. Ashara has the blood of the First Men, so she absolutely could have been visited by Bloodraven's feathery counterpart.

5. Could be that seeing the truth is something they teach you in shadowbinder school. I bet Mel left before she finished that class, which would also explain her lack of a mask.

I don't know that Dawn decides who wields it. I always thought the family decided and it was based on fighting ability. The sword has magic, no question, but I don't think it has any sentient ability.

Quaithe isn't seeing anything through glass candles at first, because they haven't been burning for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. So it's a big deal when she tells Dany the glass candles are burning. I agree that she's been absolutely right about everything. I love Tyrion, but I wouldn't trust him.

1. That's true, but then what is her motive for making everyone think she's dead and leaving her family forever? Because Rhaegar had a dream that the PtwP would need a shadowbinder? But we don't even know that he did have a dream to that effect. (Did Raegar even have prophetic dreams? I thought he just read about prophecies?) But we do know that no one seems to think it strange for Ashara to have jumped.

2. If she isn't disfigured, why is she wearing a mask? Why did no one ever recognize her, ever? Why do you think that all shadowbinders wear masks? I don't think there is ever any mention to that effect. Out of the three we've met--Mirri, Mel, and Quaithe--only Quaithe wears a mask.

3. I don't think she could have gotten beyond the range of people who would recognize her in one night. (Even if she did sneak away at night, anyone she met would have a lamp or a torch or something.) And I do think plenty of people in and around Starfall would recognize her--and plenty of other people besides. She had been at court, and at the Harrenhall Tourney, and had very striking features.

4. That's a good point. It could all be connected to Bloodraven, Greenseers and the CotF. On the other hand Bran has no awareness of her, so I'm not sure if that's the case or not.

5. I think Mel's lack of a mask is more evidence that shadowbinders don't normally wear masks than evidence that Mel is a shadowbinder school dropout.

- You could be right. Or I could be right. :-) There's so little evidence on this point that it's kind of whatever you want to think, I suppose. I want to think it's a super-special magic Sorting Sword. :-P

- Agreed.

Now that magic is back in the world, suddenly the glass candles are working. We have zero evidence of Quaithe being able to do a thing with a glass candle before the hatching of the dragons, the Others' reappearance, or any of the other evidence of magic returning to the world. It's quite possible that she couldn't do it before, and can now not because she has so much experience, but because it's possible now when it wasn't in the past.

- One quibble: I think it's actually unclear how much magic was active in Asshai itself during the no-dragon time period. In GoT Dany clearly thinks there might be dragons there, so it seems that there are at least rumors of mystical activity in Asshai even while the rest of the world is mundane. The worldbook also seems to imply that there is something inherently strange about Asshai.

We do know for certain that magical knowledge was being passed on, i.e. Mirri's education and Marwyn's studies. And it seems to me that the working of spells would have to have at least some small effect for new students to a) believe they were learning something real and b) practice properly.

Also, we know that the R'hllor fire prophecies worked even without dragons--Mel references using them long before coming to Westeros. So we don't know for a fact that Quaithe was unable to use a glass candle before the dragons awoke. However, I tend to agree that that is the case. But other magic, i.e. shadowbinding, could well have been possible in Asshai even without dragons. Mirri's spell worked pre-dragon, after all.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1. That's true, but then what is her motive for making everyone think she's dead and leaving her family forever? Because Rhaegar had a dream that the PtwP would need a shadowbinder? But we don't even know that he did have a dream to that effect. (Did Raegar even have prophetic dreams? I thought he just read about prophecies?) But we do know that no one seems to think it strange for Ashara to have jumped.

2. If she isn't disfigured, why is she wearing a mask? Why did no one ever recognize her, ever? Why do you think that all shadowbinders wear masks? I don't think there is ever any mention to that effect. Out of the three we've met--Mirri, Mel, and Quaithe--only Quaithe wears a mask.

3. I don't think she could have gotten beyond the range of people who would recognize her in one night. (Even if she did sneak away at night, anyone she met would have a lamp or a torch or something.) And I do think plenty of people in and around Starfall would recognize her--and plenty of other people besides. She had been at court, and at the Harrenhall Tourney, and had very striking features.

4. That's a good point. It could all be connected to Bloodraven, Greenseers and the CotF. On the other hand Bran has no awareness of her, so I'm not sure if that's the case or not.

5. I think Mel's lack of a mask is more evidence that shadowbinders don't normally wear masks than evidence that Mel is a shadowbinder school dropout.

- You could be right. Or I could be right. :-) There's so little evidence on this point that it's kind of whatever you want to think, I suppose. I want to think it's a super-special magic Sorting Sword. :-P

- Agreed.

- One quibble: I think it's actually unclear how much magic was active in Asshai itself during the no-dragon time period. In GoT Dany clearly thinks there might be dragons there, so it seems that there are at least rumors of mystical activity in Asshai even while the rest of the world is mundane. The worldbook also seems to imply that there is something inherently strange about Asshai.

We do know for certain that magical knowledge was being passed on, i.e. Mirri's education and Marwyn's studies. And it seems to me that the working of spells would have to have at least some small effect for new students to a) believe they were learning something real and B) practice properly.

Also, we know that the R'hllor fire prophecies worked even without dragons--Mel references using them long before coming to Westeros. So we don't know for a fact that Quaithe was unable to use a glass candle before the dragons awoke. However, I tend to agree that that is the case. But other magic, i.e. shadowbinding, could well have been possible in Asshai even without dragons. Mirri's spell worked pre-dragon, after all.

1) Targaryen loyalty. The Daynes were heavily pro-Targ. The fact that we don't know if Rhaegar said TDtwP needs a shadowbinder is not a point against this, as we don't even know that TDtwP has to have three heads. GRRM has left this deliberately vague, and he has a good reason for doing so. Of course no one thinks it strange that a disgraced noblewoman who lost her baby and her brother in short order would have killed herself. If you're going to create a cover story, you want one that's easily believed, and not likely to be questioned. Jon Snow is a great example of this. Ned is believed when he says Jon is his son because no one could think for a moment that Ned Stark would lie about something like that. And no one would think for a moment that the Daynes would lie about Ashara killing herself.

2) Because according to the text, and the wiki, shadowbinders wear masks. MMD is not a shadowbinder. She's a maegi or possibly a witch, but she is never once called a shadowbinder. Mel is not only a shadowbinder, and I expect the mask is something you earn and she failed to earn it. She may have dropped out of the Asshai'i Holistic Technical Institute because of her conversion to R'hllorism, or because she was flunking her prophecy classes.

3) She's traveling at night. Probably with a large cloak and hood covering her features. So the only person who might recognize her probably can't. They likely would have chosen people they absolutely trust to get her away from that point on, and she might have gone to Dragonstone first (to tell Rhaella that Rhaegar had a living son). It's also highly possible that the Daynes pulled a Littlefinger and killed the person (or persons) who knew that Ashara was still alive. The point of her leaving is that once she's out of Westeros, no one will recognize her, and all they have to do is silence the few people who knew who she was on the journey.

4) Thanks. Bran has no awareness of her...yet. He hasn't seen everything. He hasn't seen Lyanna, Rhaegar, or anything of that nature, and he hasn't seen the Others through the weirnet either. There's a lot more to come via Bran's POV. As his training continues, he'll be able to access more info on the weirnet, and we'll start getting more answers, and likely more questions as well. :D

5) Except that the text says that shadowbinders do wear masks. And Mel is also under a heavy glamour, so it's possible she thinks she doesn't need the mask in addition to that. I suppose there's a slim chance that Mel actually graduated with honors and knows how to make the mask unnecessary, while Quaithe hasn't advanced that far. Mel is very old, but we've seen nothing to suggest that Quaithe is old.

Asshai was the one place on earth where magic seems to have been wholly accepted. Contrast that with Westeros, where magic is considered to be part of fairy tales. And don't forget that Bran saw dragons in Asshai in a dream, so it's not just Dany. Wasn't it Jorah who suggested that Dany's dragon eggs might have come from Asshai? There's definitely something about Asshai that has enabled magic to continue there while it disappeared elsewhere on Planetos.

It's my opinion that magic was returning to the world prior to the dragons hatching. We have evidence in that the Others were back, the direwolves were found south of the Wall. It's just that the dragons being born ramped up the magic quotient in the world exponentially. The Wall is magical as well, and as far as we know there are no dragons there.

It's true that we don't know for certain that Quaithe couldn't use glass candles before, but we don't know that she could before. In fact, we don't know that anyone has been able to use them prior to the birth of Dany's dragons. That's why GRRM made a point of having Quaithe say the glass candles are burning again. As in they used to before, stopped for a while, and now are back. I was just countering Mithras' idea that Quaithe needs to be really old to be able to do what she does.

[Blazfemur]

"Ned, you promised Lyanna you'd give me Jon to make up for Arthur.."

"I.. i cant."

"Ned, if you dont give me Jon, im going to tell the world who he is."

"I'm afraid i cant let you do that, Ashara."

"Ned, Starfall is far from Robert's reach, he'll be safe here."

"Im so sorry..."

*push*

Ned dwelt on the haunting of broken promises for the rest of his life.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

"Ned, you promised Lyanna you'd give me Jon to make up for Arthur.."

"I.. i cant."

"Ned, if you dont give me Jon, im going to tell the world who he is."

"I'm afraid i cant let you do that, Ashara."

*push*

Ned dwelt on the haunting of broken promises for the rest of his life.

It is known...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

"Ned, you promised Lyanna you'd give me Jon to make up for Arthur.."

"I.. i cant."

"Ned, if you dont give me Jon, im going to tell the world who he is."

"I'm afraid i cant let you do that, Ashara."

"Ned, Starfall is far from Robert's reach, he'll be safe here."

"Im so sorry..."

*push*

Ned dwelt on the haunting of broken promises for the rest of his life.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

That does explain "they" found him. Ashara was there. He had to go to Starfall to drop her off with the sword.

"Sorry about killing your brother. May I escort you home?"

[Blazfemur]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

That does explain "they" found him. Ashara was there. He had to go to Starfall to drop her off with the sword.

"Sorry about killing your brother. May I escort you home?"

:D

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

"Ned, you promised Lyanna you'd give me Jon to make up for Arthur.."

"I.. i cant."

"Ned, if you dont give me Jon, im going to tell the world who he is."

"I'm afraid i cant let you do that, Ashara."

"Ned, Starfall is far from Robert's reach, he'll be safe here."

"Im so sorry..."

*push*

Ned dwelt on the haunting of broken promises for the rest of his life.

:lol:

Well it's certainly more elegant than my theory.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1) Targaryen loyalty. The Daynes were heavily pro-Targ. The fact that we don't know if Rhaegar said TDtwP needs a shadowbinder is not a point against this, as we don't even know that TDtwP has to have three heads. GRRM has left this deliberately vague, and he has a good reason for doing so. Of course no one thinks it strange that a disgraced noblewoman who lost her baby and her brother in short order would have killed herself. If you're going to create a cover story, you want one that's easily believed, and not likely to be questioned. Jon Snow is a great example of this. Ned is believed when he says Jon is his son because no one could think for a moment that Ned Stark would lie about something like that. And no one would think for a moment that the Daynes would lie about Ashara killing herself.

2) Because according to the text, and the wiki, shadowbinders wear masks. MMD is not a shadowbinder. She's a maegi or possibly a witch, but she is never once called a shadowbinder. Mel is not only a shadowbinder, and I expect the mask is something you earn and she failed to earn it. She may have dropped out of the Asshai'i Holistic Technical Institute because of her conversion to R'hllorism, or because she was flunking her prophecy classes.

5) Except that the text says that shadowbinders do wear masks. And Mel is also under a heavy glamour, so it's possible she thinks she doesn't need the mask in addition to that. I suppose there's a slim chance that Mel actually graduated with honors and knows how to make the mask unnecessary, while Quaithe hasn't advanced that far. Mel is very old, but we've seen nothing to suggest that Quaithe is old.

1) I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one...even if there was such a prophecy, it doesn't strike me as a compelling enough reason for a young noblewoman to leave her family forever and go off to scary dark-magic land alone. It just seems to me that there would have had to be some unusually extreme reason to drive her to such a thing. I mean going to Asshai to become a shadowbinder is way bigger of a deal than, say, raising your nephew as your son. But maybe Rhaegar was just the kind of guy a woman would go to the ends of the earth for. :-P

2) LOL. From now on there is an Asshai Holistic Technical Institute in my mind.

5) So maybe the whole facial-damage part of my theory is a result of ignorance. I thought I looked into this pretty thoroughly and didn't see a mention of it, but I have been known to miss things. Can you refer me to the "shadowbinders wear masks" thing in the text?

And I had been counting Mirri and Mel as shadowbinders because they both bound shadows to their will...is that not what makes a shadowbinder? Or is there some more technical definition?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I remember that when discussing Stannis, someone or other said it was rumored he had "a shadowbinder from Asshai" (Mel) in his employ.

[Warrewal Halfaxe]

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