Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 What does robert have to hate two small children for about exactly? Being Targs. Yes it's unfair, but it happens. Thr Martells hate all Lannisters, despite only a few of them being involved in what happened to Elia and her children. ^Worse? How is he worse than the person that planned it, gave the order and the people who carried it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 What does robert have to hate two small children for about exactly? I dont know, but he does. "I see no babes, only dragonspawn." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Turtles Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't really get that either... sadly, the children had to die for Robert to become king himself and I can see how he might have convinced himself they "deserved" to die, because they were Evil Rhaegar's kids, and no good can come from him and so on... but his 'I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on' is pretty weird considering he is a quarter Targ himself. I mean, his own father was as much Targaryen as Rhaenys and Aegon were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Being Targs. Yes it's unfair, but it happens. Thr Martells hate all Lannisters, despite only a few of them being involved in what happened to Elia and her children. ^Worse? How is he worse than the person that planned it, gave the order and the people who carried it out?Hes worse because he had the power to punish thoes monsters yet he condoned it and rewards the main one than he stands over their bodies and dehumanizes 2 innocent babies(the most innocent people in that pointless war)because of some girl who he probably never talked to, yeah the coward was worse IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Being Targs. Yes it's unfair, but it happens. Thr Martells hate all Lannisters, despite only a few of them being involved in what happened to Elia and her children.You think all of the martells hate all of the lannisters? Where's the evidence for that? Oberyn doesn't really seem to hate Tyrion, and we have no negative thoughts AFAIK from dornishmen about any lannister other than Tywin, particularly the children. Arianne and Doran are fond of Myrcella, and horrified when's he is hurt. She is roberts kid and half Lannister, an ultimate symbol of the horrors done to Elia. ^Worse? How is he worse than the person that planned it, gave the order and the people who carried it out?Pretty close to as bad. Moral event horizon bad. Like, still so evil it makes no difference in terms.Id forgive robert - and so would Dorne, I think - if he had just punished gregor, Lorch, and Tywin in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 What does robert have to hate two small children for about exactly? Nothing, even Ned said one of the reasons they fought the Mad King was to end the murder of children... Problem is, Robert didn´t kill Elia and her children, and he wasn´t crowned yet, so no legal nor moral obligation on his part... The dragonspawn coment came from a guy who has his heart close to his mouth and had been fighting a war he didn´t ask for, but that´s it, a comment... A lot of good characters in this story wish that others would die, are they evil? no, they´re just angry, and again at that time if Jon Arryn wanted to punish those 2 Robert wouldn´t care a bit, but he didn´t because it would mean war... Robert doesn´t care about tywin´s dogs, he didn´t care about himself most of his life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 he wasn´t crowned yet, so no legal nor moral obligation on his part...The dragonspawn coment came from a guy who has his heart close to his mouth and had been fighting a war he didn´t ask for, but that´s it, a comment...Robert had a moral and legal obligation to do one thing - punish the murderers. First, obviously Gregor and Lorch. But Tywin also - IMO it would have been the politically expedient thing to do as well. Dorne would be his ALLY for taking such a bold stand instead of planning their revenge. Tywin is sent to the wall, jaime too - who's left to take revenge? Boy lord Tyrion and his uncle Kevan? The Lannisters have NO allies in this situation. Robert can marry someone besides cersei too - that was just pathetic pandering by Jon A. A lot of good characters in this story wish that others would die, are they evil? no, they´re just angry, and again at that time if Jon Arryn wanted to punish those 2 Robert wouldn´t care a bit, but he didn´t because it would mean war... Robert doesn´t care about tywin´s dogs, he didn´t care about himself most of his lifeI disagree - the evidence we Have demonstrates that Robert relished in those deaths.he's not evil for having thoughts - but not punishing the murderers was his most evil act, and his words prove his motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 He didn't pardon them because he didn't consider it as a crime at all. He himself wanted their deaths to secure his throne. He didn't care for children and he considers their deaths a part of war. You can't expect justice for Elia and her kids from a man such as Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Robert had a moral and legal obligation to do one thing - punish the murderers. First, obviously Gregor and Lorch. But Tywin also - IMO it would have been the politically expedient thing to do as well. Dorne would be his ALLY for taking such a bold stand instead of planning their revenge. Tywin is sent to the wall, jaime too - who's left to take revenge? Boy lord Tyrion and his uncle Kevan? The Lannisters have NO allies in this situation. Robert can marry someone besides cersei too - that was just pathetic pandering by Jon A.I disagree - the evidence we Have demonstrates that Robert relished in those deaths.he's not evil for having thoughts - but not punishing the murderers was his most evil act, and his words prove his motivation.Dorne was a mistery, Robert wouldn´t risk a war with the Westerlands (and it would happen if he punished Tywin´s men and called for the man´s head himself)... it would be a disaster to his new regime, and with no garantee Dorne wouldn´t be pro-Targ either way (they lost thousands against robert)...If you were in Robert´s or Arryn´s position you would choose the Lannisters because they were at your side (at the time) and had incredible resources to build a new legacy...The children were victims of two mad dogs who take orders from a guy who doesn´t have a stomach, but said guy was too powerfull and too experienced to deal with, Robert would end up winning in a war against tywin but it would weakened westeros even more and sentenced even more children to die, by sword or by famine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dorne was a mistery, Robert wouldn´t risk a war with the Westerlands (and it would happen if he punished Tywin´s men and called for the man´s head himself)... it would be a disaster to his new regime, and with no garantee Dorne wouldn´t be pro-Targ either way (they lost thousands against robert)...If you were in Robert´s or Arryn´s position you would choose the Lannisters because they were at your side (at the time) and had incredible resources to build a new legacy...The children were victims of two mad dogs who take orders from a guy who doesn´t have a stomach, but said guy was too powerfull and too experienced to deal with, Robert would end up winning in a war against tywin but it would weakened westeros even more and sentenced even more children to die, by sword or by famineHe could have asked for their heads to serve justice and to keep Dorne closer. I doubt Tywin will go against Robert for his dogs. Tywin had more benefits allying with Robert than going against him.But the truth is Robert was okay with their killings and he was happy that his throne is really secured then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't really get that either... sadly, the children had to die for Robert to become king himself and I can see how he might have convinced himself they "deserved" to die, because they were Evil Rhaegar's kids, and no good can come from him and so on... but his 'I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on' is pretty weird considering he is a quarter Targ himself. I mean, his own father was as much Targaryen as Rhaenys and Aegon were. Less than a quarter. Aegon married a Blackwood and his mother was a Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 You think all of the martells hate all of the lannisters? Where's the evidence for that? Oberyn doesn't really seem to hate Tyrion, and we have no negative thoughts AFAIK from dornishmen about any lannister other than Tywin, particularly the children.Arianne and Doran are fond of Myrcella, and horrified when's he is hurt. She is roberts kid and half Lannister, an ultimate symbol of the horrors done to Elia.Pretty close to as bad. Moral event horizon bad. Like, still so evil it makes no difference in terms.Id forgive robert - and so would Dorne, I think - if he had just punished gregor, Lorch, and Tywin in some way.1) How about the facts that they want Tommen dead? How about the fact that they're still out for revenge afte Tywin, Gregor and Amory were dead. 2) Is there anything to forgive? They have reason to hate him, but he had no part in their murder. And I doubt they'd have been amiable towards him if he'd punished Tywin and his men, as Tywin claimed to have done it in Roberts nam. It's like when Robb chose to execute Karstark even though the Lannisters and Freys wouldn't thank him for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 He could have asked for their heads to serve justice and to keep Dorne closer. I doubt Tywin will go against Robert for his dogs. Tywin had more benefits allying with Robert than going against him.But the truth is Robert was okay with their killings and he was happy that his throne is really secured then.I agree that Tywin couldn´t care less about two soldiers but the problem is that we only get a confession when Oberyn fights Gregor, at the time of the sack blaming those two without proof was blaming the entire Lannister army and Tywin himself, it would go to war don´t get any doubts, if not, Robert or Arryn would have dealt with the situation quietly beheading gregor and lorch to see if Dorne calmed down faster... Robert doesn´t give a rat about those 2, but before the confession it would always lead to Tywin Robert was okay because he didn´t care, like many people don´t care about deaths that are not in their hands, if he had to do it himself he would not be able to kill them, it´s not in his nature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 1) How about the facts that they want Tommen dead? How about the fact that they're still out for revenge afte Tywin, Gregor and Amory were dead. 2) Is there anything to forgive? They have reason to hate him, but he had no part in their murder. And I doubt they'd have been amiable towards him if he'd punished Tywin and his men, as Tywin claimed to have done it in Roberts nam. It's like when Robb chose to execute Karstark even though the Lannisters and Freys wouldn't thank him for it. But that's not all Lannisters. You seemingly just conceded they were fond of Tyrion and Myrcella. So clearly if they're making exceptions they're not on the level of Robert who wanted all the Targaryens dead to the last defenseless child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Hes worse because he had the power to punish thoes monsters yet he condoned it and rewards the main one than he stands over their bodies and dehumanizes 2 innocent babies(the most innocent people in that pointless war)because of some girl who he probably never talked to, yeah the coward was worse IMO. Eh? Roberts been to Winterfell and was at the Tourney of Harrenhall. No doubt he's spoken to her. Well, Rhaegar was the Last Dragon and they were his children, so they are dragonspawn. Not quite. I'm pretty sure Tywin had more men in the capital than Robert did. Pointless war? The Targs brought it on themselves. The kids didn't deserve to suffer, but the rebels were justified in fighting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 But that's not all Lannisters. You seemingly just conceded they were fond of Tyrion and Myrcella. So clearly if they're making exceptions they're not on the level of Robert who wanted all the Targaryens dead to the last defenseless child. Nope. Just busy. There's no evidence that Oberyn cared about Tyrion as a person. As for Myrcella, they may care about her... or not. There are political reasons to keep her safe too. The Lannisters are a big family. The Targs aren't, but the Velaryons survived. The Martells are working towards their destruction despite the fact that the people responsible are dead. Robert let Aerys' kids live and only resumed his plan to kill them when they were actively planning an Invasion. And there are political reasons to kill off all the Targs. There aren't for the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Eh? Roberts been to Winterfell and was at the Tourney of Harrenhall. No doubt he's spoken to her. Well, Rhaegar was the Last Dragon and they were his children, so they are dragonspawn. Not quite. I'm pretty sure Tywin had more men in the capital than Robert did. Pointless war? The Targs brought it on themselves. The kids didn't deserve to suffer, but the rebels were justified in fighting them.Aerys and to some extent Rhaegar brought it on themselves. Remaining Targs didn't deserve to die. And rebels are not justified in killing Elia and her kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Aerys and to some extent Rhaegar brought it on themselves. Remaining Targs didn't deserve to die. And rebels are not justified in killing Elia and her kids. If the new King says they are, then they are. That is how medieval society worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Aerys and to some extent Rhaegar brought it on themselves. Remaining Targs didn't deserve to die. And rebels are not justified in killing Elia and her kids. I said that. But there are political reasons for wiping out the Targaryens and it would have been the smart, but cruel thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
econn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Gregor did not commit a crime against Robert or his regime. He had to pardon Barristan and Varys et al. for supporting the Targaryens; it would have made some question their new king if he began persecuting his supporters as well. This is the same dilemma that Robb faces with Lord Karstark and it helped bring about his demise. Sometimes the moral choice is not the right choice. But I think that Robert was happy to see them dead which is inexcusable and a black mark on his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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