The Harrenhal Deception

[Evolett]

I've long been dissatisfied with the little information we have surrounding the events at the Tourney of Harrenhal. This led me to investigate blue winter roses and my findings there (amongst other things) convinced me that the Prince of Dragonstone had a definite plan well before the tourney got under way. He had every intention of laying that garland in Lyanna's lap. The act was part of his plan.

We have to ask ourselves the following question:

Why does Rhaegar, The Prince of Dragonstone and heir apparent, risk scandal and the displeasure of all by going against acceptable norms and tradition, to honour a woman he has never met?

It’s hard to believe that this occurred on a whim, on an instant infatuation or whatever other romantic archetypes one might conjure up by merely skimming the surface of the information given. Rhaegar needed a new bride to father “the third head of the dragon ” on, his wife Elia unable to bear any more children after Aegon’s birth. That prophecy was extremely important to him. I do not think that Rhaegar would have left his choice of woman to a random encounter. I believe he took stock of suitable, available women of the great houses and felled his decision well in advance of that tourney.

Consider the following hypothesis:

Prince Rhaegar Targaryen’s main aim at the Tourney of Harrenhal was to provoke Robert Baratheon, Lyanna’s betrothed, into a duel over her and subsequently claim her as his new bride.

I argue that Rhaegar and Lord Rickard Stark agreed to a marriage between the prince and Lyanna, and hatched a plan to legitimise the union. The plan included that the two be married in the godswood at Harrenhal, during the tourney at Harrenhal. The incident involving the Knight of the Laughing Tree served as a decoy to divert attention from the clandestine wedding, the mystery knight – Ned – being an unwitting party to the secret. Benjen provided bits of armour as well as the shield for the knight. The device on the shield is a pun on the terrible face of the heart tree in the godswood at Harrenhal.
To officially claim his bride, Rhaegar had to win the tournament and crown Lyanna his queen of love and beauty. Bequeathing his victory to Lyanna had the sole purpose of provoking Robert Baratheon, Lyanna’s current betrothed, into a duel over her hand. In the event of a successful duel in his favour, the betrothal would have been legitimately and honourably void, allowing the prince to officially claim Lyanna as his bride.

The theory also gives everything that transpired after the tourney perspective.

I've put together evidence for the theory but it's a rather long read. You’ll find all arguments for the case here: The Harrenhal Deception

I’d love to read your opinions on the theory. Do you think the series of events as I have presented them plausible?

[Mladen]

TBH, I have several problems with this. First one is Ned's role. We had Ned's POV, so we would have at least some inkling that he was the mystery knight at Harrenhal. Somewhere he would have thought about that and give at least some information about that. Furthermore, in Ned's private thoughts, we see that the events most certainly didn't happen the way you theorize about them. Ned wasn't participant of any scheme as he is rather clear about Robert and Lyanna. The second thing is marriage. Elia's second pregnancy happened after the Tourney, so her infertility wouldn't be any factor here. That being said, I am not buying this.

[mormont]

It’s hard to believe that this occurred on a whim, on an instant infatuation or whatever other romantic archetypes one might conjure up by merely skimming the surface of the information given.

Not particularly.

This is a guy who changed the whole direction of his life overnight because he read something in a book that he thought applied to him. It's totally in character that he would turn his life upside down again on what might appear to be a whim, but was actually an encounter he thought had a deeper significance.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Not sure if you are familiar with what I believe is the most widely held belief on this, so I will share it. The theory is that Lyanna was the kotlt, and that Rhaegar did indeed find this out just as he said he would. It was this knowledge that infatuated Rhaegar with Lyanna so, and his obsession with prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 children, knowing Elia could not have another child he did what he both wanted and thought he had to do.

It is also believe that Rhaegar did indeed set up the tourney of Harrenhall, but that his purpose was to convene a great council to set his father aside and crown himself king. This is hinted at in several places.

[Hank of House Hutton]

Not sure if you are familiar with what I believe is the most widely held belief on this, so I will share it. The theory is that Lyanna was the kotlt, and that Rhaegar did indeed find this out just as he said he would. It was this knowledge that infatuated Rhaegar with Lyanna so, and his obsession with prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 children, knowing Elia could not have another child he did what he both wanted and thought he had to do.

It is also believe that Rhaegar did indeed set up the tourney of Harrenhall, but that his purpose was to convene a great council to set his father aside and crown himself king. This is hinted at in several places.

do you have a link that further supports that theory? i would like to read about that theory

[Lord Eaglesteel]

There was definitely some conspiracy but I won't try to find out what :)

But consider this thought by Ser Barristan: The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Obviously Rheagar and Dayne were op to no good back then!

[Evolett]

TBH, I have several problems with this. First one is Ned's role. We had Ned's POV, so we would have at least some inkling that he was the mystery knight at Harrenhal. Somewhere he would have thought about that and give at least some information about that. Furthermore, in Ned's private thoughts, we see that the events most certainly didn't happen the way you theorize about them. Ned wasn't participant of any scheme as he is rather clear about Robert and Lyanna. The second thing is marriage. Elia's second pregnancy happened after the Tourney, so her infertility wouldn't be any factor here. That being said, I am not buying this.

Ned never told his children the story of the knight of the laughing tree and Jojen and Meera seem quite surprised at that. Ned doesn't talk much about past events anyway but I wonder why he would withhold that story. It's a great story, one that casts Lyanna in a very positive light. Saving Howland and avenging him in a tourney, beating three knights in a row - that's quite sensational and a beautiful story to remember Lyanna by, especially in view of all the tragedy thereafter. I just wonder why Ned id not tell this tale if Lyanna indeed played the role of the mystery knight. I wasn't able to find any hints in Ned's thoughts but on the other had it appears he had other secrets. What were they? He may have kept this story to himself because he felt bad about his involvement. Just a thought.

TWOIAF mentions snow falling on the last day of the year 281 AC (after the false spring) and that Aerys commanded his pyromancers to drive off the winter by lighting huge green fires along the wall of the Red Keep. It's stated that Prince Rhaegar was not around to see those fires and neither was he hat Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. Timelines are fuzzy, Aegon could already have been born at the time of the tourney which took place toward the end of the year. Also, given Elia's troubled pregnancies, would she take the risk of travelling to tourney during the last stage of pregnancy?

[Evolett]

Not sure if you are familiar with what I believe is the most widely held belief on this, so I will share it. The theory is that Lyanna was the kotlt, and that Rhaegar did indeed find this out just as he said he would. It was this knowledge that infatuated Rhaegar with Lyanna so, and his obsession with prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 children, knowing Elia could not have another child he did what he both wanted and thought he had to do.

It is also believe that Rhaegar did indeed set up the tourney of Harrenhall, but that his purpose was to convene a great council to set his father aside and crown himself king. This is hinted at in several places.

I'm familiar with the theory that Lyanna was the KotLT and my train of thought questions that. Also that Rhaegar's purpose was to gather lords for an informal great council. I do think that was his purpose. It doesn't rule out a further agenda though.

[Mladen]

Ned never told his children the story of the knight of the laughing tree and Jojen and Meera seem quite surprised at that. Ned doesn't talk much about past events anyway but I wonder why he would withhold that story. It's a great story, one that casts Lyanna in a very positive light. Saving Howland and avenging him in a tourney, beating three knights in a row - that's quite sensational and a beautiful story to remember Lyanna by, especially in view of all the tragedy thereafter. I just wonder why Ned id not tell this tale if Lyanna indeed played the role of the mystery knight. I wasn't able to find any hints in Ned's thoughts but on the other had it appears he had other secrets. What were they? He may have kept this story to himself because he felt bad about his involvement. Just a thought.

The description of KOTLT which is basically stolen from "Return of the King" and Eowyn's alias Derenhelm which leaves no place for Ned to be the one. The stature, the voice simply don't fit.

TWOIAF mentions snow falling on the last day of the year 281 AC (after the false spring) and that Aerys commanded his pyromancers to drive off the winter by lighting huge green fires along the wall of the Red Keep. It's stated that Prince Rhaegar was not around to see those fires and neither was he hat Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. Timelines are fuzzy, Aegon could already have been born at the time of the tourney which took place toward the end of the year. Also, given Elia's troubled pregnancies, would she take the risk of travelling to tourney during the last stage of pregnancy?

Aegon was born AFTER the Tourney, since he was born at Dragonstone. Elia was present at the Tourney. We also have Rhaegar's "dragon has three heads" which arguably made him look for Lyanna.

[Hank of House Hutton]

i tried posting this under your Blue Winter Rose theory but i dont have an account so i couldnt post, so i figured id post it here for how i feel about your BWR theory..

i mean cool you did all this research and stuff, and it’s good research no doubt. But i think you’re diving in a little deeper than intended for the flowers. It seems like the way you broke it down is a national treasure type riddle to break down or something. I think it’s a lot simpler than that.

Why would a Blue Winter Rose be from Winterfell? Blue is a color associated with ice, Wintefell is cold. Winter..well Winterfell. And as you stated, a rose is a pretty common flower in Westeros. So a Blue Winter Rose makes sense, just geographically being named because of where it’s from. And why does Lyanna love them? Because those are flowers she’s seen before in her home Winterfell and are associated with Winterfell.

And with the color blue and how they got it…you do realize this is a fantasy story right? With dragons and ice zombies and multiple year long seasons, etc. GRRM could of just created a blue rose for his fantasy. i dont think there’s really a scientific reason for it all and a little mystery story behind why GRRM chose a Blue Winter Rose opposed to another flower.

And finally…where did you get the reason to compare the Blue Winter Rose to a fucking Poinsettia lol. You’re calling it a rose, and comparing the meanings of the different colors of a rose, but then use a Poinsettia for the character traits of changing the colors of leaves and the wolfs milk. There’s no where to get Poinsettia for the flower besides the fact it backs up your theory. You cant say how it’s rose and then compare it to a Poinsettia , it just doesnt work that way.

I do agree with however that Rhaegar had it planned to name Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty before the Tourney and planned to have her be the mother of his third child to complete the 3 headed dragon, that’s why he had the Blue Winter Roses ready to give her.

[Mladen]

i tried posting this under your Blue Winter Rose theory but i dont have an account so i couldnt post, so i figured id post it here for how i feel about your BWR theory..

i mean cool you did all this research and stuff, and it’s good research no doubt. But i think you’re diving in a little deeper than intended for the flowers. It seems like the way you broke it down is a national treasure type riddle to break down or something. I think it’s a lot simpler than that.

Why would a Blue Winter Rose be from Winterfell? Blue is a color associated with ice, Wintefell is cold. Winter..well Winterfell. And as you stated, a rose is a pretty common flower in Westeros. So a Blue Winter Rose makes sense, just geographically being named because of where it’s from. And why does Lyanna love them? Because those are flowers she’s seen before in her home Winterfell and are associated with Winterfell.

And with the color blue and how they got it…you do realize this is a fantasy story right? With dragons and ice zombies and multiple year long seasons, etc. GRRM could of just created a blue rose for his fantasy. i dont think there’s really a scientific reason for it all and a little mystery story behind why GRRM chose a Blue Winter Rose opposed to another flower.

And finally…where did you get the reason to compare the Blue Winter Rose to a fucking Poinsettia lol. You’re calling it a rose, and comparing the meanings of the different colors of a rose, but then use a Poinsettia for the character traits of changing the colors of leaves and the wolfs milk. There’s no where to get Poinsettia for the flower besides the fact it backs up your theory. You cant say how it’s rose and then compare it to a Poinsettia , it just doesnt work that way.

I do agree with however that Rhaegar had it planned to name Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty before the Tourney and planned to have her be the mother of his third child to complete the 3 headed dragon, that’s why he had the Blue Winter Roses ready to give her.

Again, why would he need another woman for the third child at that moment? Unless he was clairvoyant and predicted that Elia will at some point be incapable of having the third child?

[Hank of House Hutton]

Again, why would he need another woman for the third child at that moment? Unless he was clairvoyant and predicted that Elia will at some point be incapable of having the third child?

not sure honestly lol havent dug that deep. Do you know why Rhaegar would have Blue Winter Roses to give Lyanna? or do you think it's just a coincidence that was the crown and he gave it to her?

[Mladen]

not sure honestly lol havent dug that deep. Do you know why Rhaegar would have Blue Winter Roses to give Lyanna? or do you think it's just a coincidence that was the crown and he gave it to her?

It most certainly wasn't a coincidence. It has a lot of meaning. First we have the story about Bael the Bard and the mention of the blue rose there. Second, if Lyanna was KotLT, and I honestly believe she was, their meeting would have happened before the crowning, thus Rhaegar might have been told about Lyanna loving blue roses.

[jet199]

The blue roses meaning thematically but in the story the Harrenhal tourney happened in winter and winter roses are the only flowers which bloom in winter. This is why we have the false spring, so it is possible to have a tourney and blue roses at the same time.

[Evolett]

GRRM could of just created a blue rose for his fantasy. i dont think there’s really a scientific reason for it all and a little mystery story behind why GRRM chose a Blue Winter Rose opposed to another flower.

Maybe he just created the blue rose for his fantasy and yes "blue winter" is associated with ice and all that but I was still intrigued. If we are talking about romance, why not red roses? Sansa certainly seems to read something into the red rose given to her by Loras. "Red, not white", she thinks. So the colour is important. I simply asked myself, why the unusual colour (beyond the association with ice)? Blue isn't a natural colour for a rose, which is why I decided to investigate methods of changing plant colour and one of these methods is photodermism which relies on long periods of uninterrupted darkness, - long nights - it fit's a theme in the story. Poinsetta is one example of a bloom achieved by this method and it so happens that its scientific name means "a beautiful wolf maid". Could all be coincidence and totally irrelevant but who knows?

That aside, the blue roses are described as rare and precious, we haven't seen them growing anywhere besides the glass gardens of Winterfell. Arya counts 36 different flowers in the Neck while they are travelling to King's Landing. She doesn't recognise any of them. She would recognise blue winter roses. This is another reason why I wonder where Rhaegar got those roses from. Not only that, if he'd met Lyanna for the first time and know nothing about her prior to that, how would he know of her fondness for them? They are special, not commonplace.

[Mladen]

Maybe he just created the blue rose for his fantasy and yes "blue winter" is associated with ice and all that but I was still intrigued. If we are talking about romance, why not red roses? Sansa certainly seems to read something into the red rose given to her by Loras. "Red, not white", she thinks. So the colour is important. I simply asked myself, why the unusual colour (beyond the association with ice)? Blue isn't a natural colour for a rose, which is why I decided to investigate methods of changing plant colour and one of these methods is photodermism which relies on long periods of uninterrupted darkness, - long nights - it fit's a theme in the story. Poinsetta is one example of a bloom achieved by this method and it so happens that its scientific name means "a beautiful wolf maid". Could all be coincidence and totally irrelevant but who knows?

That aside, the blue roses are described as rare and precious, we haven't seen them growing anywhere besides the glass gardens of Winterfell. Arya counts 36 different flowers in the Neck while they are travelling to King's Landing. She doesn't recognise any of them. She would recognise blue winter roses. This is another reason why I wonder where Rhaegar got those roses from. Not only that, if he'd met Lyanna for the first time and know nothing about her prior to that, how would he know of her fondness for them? They are special, not commonplace.

First thing first, I haven't said what is in your post. That is post by Hank of the House Hutton.

Now, I think you are misunderstanding my point. No one is denying the importance of blue roses in that story, but your finding and your conclusion are basically independent of each other.

Arya counted 36 new flowers. Also, the season is different. Arya is travelling during summer, so it is natural there wouldn't be anywhere blue winter roses. Plus, I am not sure she has seen it since Arya never actually experienced winter. Also, the crowning wouldn't be Rhaegar and Lyanna's first meeting. If she was KotLT, they would have met on the day where Aerys demanded KotLT to be found and Rhaegar went A-wall for half a day.

[Evolett]

First thing first, I haven't said what is in your post. That is post by Hank of the House Hutton.

Now, I think you are misunderstanding my point. No one is denying the importance of blue roses in that story, but your finding and your conclusion are basically independent of each other.

Arya counted 36 new flowers. Also, the season is different. Arya is travelling during summer, so it is natural there wouldn't be anywhere blue winter roses. Plus, I am not sure she has seen it since Arya never actually experienced winter. Also, the crowning wouldn't be Rhaegar and Lyanna's first meeting. If she was KotLT, they would have met on the day where Aerys demanded KotLT to be found and Rhaegar went A-wall for half a day.

Sorry about that, Mladen, I chose the wrong quote.

My main concern regarding the blue roses is that they are rare, precious and are said to grow in glass gardens. Glass gardens mean they are probably cultivated under special environmental conditions. Given that, even though they are "winter roses" they can be cultivated at any time of the year in the gardens. Perhaps they only grow in the wild during winter but we haven't seen any that I know of (apart from Dany's vision). Arya's scene with the 36 unknown flower varieties could be a hint that they don't grow just anywhere in the 7k, and that they do require special conditions. I hope that explains my train of thought more clearly. My main point is that they don't seem to be readily available and that leads to the question of where Rhaegar got them from. The tourney itself only lasted a week to ten days, during which Rhaegar and Lyanna supposedly met for the first time, she in the guise of the mystery knight. That does not give him very much time to procure these rare flowers, in my opinion, which is why asking where he got them from on such short notice is a fair question. Looking at it that way, is it possible that he'd planned to crown Lyanna in advance of the tourney and made sure that he had a supply of these very personal flowers on hand? I don't challenge the assumption that their first meeting occurred during the tourney but I do challenge the assumption that his crowning of her was a spontaneous act. If the roses are hard to come by and seeing as there is no mention of them growing anywhere other than in the glass gardens of Winterfell, then he must have arrangements to procure them in advance, most likely from someone in Winterfell.

[The hand that holds Dawn]

Not sure if you are familiar with what I believe is the most widely held belief on this, so I will share it. The theory is that Lyanna was the kotlt, and that Rhaegar did indeed find this out just as he said he would. It was this knowledge that infatuated Rhaegar with Lyanna so, and his obsession with prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 children, knowing Elia could not have another child he did what he both wanted and thought he had to do.

It is also believe that Rhaegar did indeed set up the tourney of Harrenhall, but that his purpose was to convene a great council to set his father aside and crown himself king. This is hinted at in several places.

This is where I ended up as well...no real evidence, I just felt that Lyanna was the KOLT and Rhaegar was sent by his father to find out who the KOLT was. When he realized it was a woman, he became infatuated with her. Who better to give birth to a dragon?

[Hank of House Hutton]

It most certainly wasn't a coincidence. It has a lot of meaning. First we have the story about Bael the Bard and the mention of the blue rose there. Second, if Lyanna was KotLT, and I honestly believe she was, their meeting would have happened before the crowning, thus Rhaegar might have been told about Lyanna loving blue roses.

cool that makes sense. do you have a link that disputes Lyanna as the KotLT? seems like a good read

[Mladen]

Sorry about that, Mladen, I chose the wrong quote.

My main concern regarding the blue roses is that they are rare, precious and are said to grow in glass gardens. Glass gardens mean they are probably cultivated under special environmental conditions. Given that, even though they are "winter roses" they can be cultivated at any time of the year in the gardens. Perhaps they only grow in the wild during winter but we haven't seen any that I know of (apart from Dany's vision). Arya's scene with the 36 unknown flower varieties could be a hint that they don't grow just anywhere in the 7k, and that they do require special conditions. I hope that explains my train of thought more clearly. My main point is that they don't seem to be readily available and that leads to the question of where Rhaegar got them from. The tourney itself only lasted a week to ten days, during which Rhaegar and Lyanna supposedly met for the first time, she in the guise of the mystery knight. That does not give him very much time to procure these rare flowers, in my opinion, which is why asking where he got them from on such short notice is a fair question. Looking at it that way, is it possible that he'd planned to crown Lyanna in advance of the tourney and made sure that he had a supply of these very personal flowers on hand? I don't challenge the assumption that their first meeting occurred during the tourney but I do challenge the assumption that his crowning of her was a spontaneous act. If the roses are hard to come by and seeing as there is no mention of them growing anywhere other than in the glass gardens of Winterfell, then he must have arrangements to procure them in advance, most likely from someone in Winterfell.

No need to apologize. It was innocent mistake. Just for clarification...

Now, even if we assume you are right, that Rhaegar planned to crown Lyanna long before Tourney, you need to answer first why would he plan such thing? What was the motivation here? Aegon's birth is out of option here because he was born after Harrenhal Tourney and thus entire argumentation "he wanted third head" fails. Furthermore, as mormont explained, Rhaegar acting spontaneously or not thinking it through is already in harmony with what he know about him. Perhaps Rhaegar decided to crown her if he wins the afternoon he discovered she is KotLT, thus having enough time to procure it. Harrenhal is tremendous castle, Whents were very rich, so logic dictates that they could have grown it. So, he didn't need have to procure them from Winterfell. I honestly assume they grow during winter all over the Westeros.

cool that makes sense. do you have a link that disputes Lyanna as the KotLT? seems like a good read

I believe Lyanna to have been KotLT, just to be clear about that.