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The Starks Are Not First Men (Spoilers All)


Lord Martin

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My theory, after several reads of the World Book, is that the most ancient roots of House Stark do not lie with the First Men. Rather, the earliest humans in Westeros crossed the Sunset Sea during the Dawn Age stopping in the Iron Islands before settling in the North. These people were related to the ancestors of the Valyrians were as terrible and supernatural as their counterparts back in Essos. It was these ancestors who created the Others and caused the Long Night and their blood line lives on in House Stark as the blood of Valyria lives on in the Targaryens.



I believe this theory is fairly supported by the text and makes a great deal of thematic sense. I hope you’ll enjoy and contribute. I also ask that you keep an open mind when reviewing this and consider that when it comes to GRRM, very little is truly ever as it seems. He is a master of the sleight of hand. A lot of the material here comes from the World Book but I tried to incorporate primary text where I could.



This post follows in line with others out there. There are probably at least half a dozen posters who deserve a hat tip for advancing my ideas in this post, namely Butterbumps, Blazefemur, Lady Blizzardborn, Mithras and likely quite a few others. (not saying they agreed w/ me, but our talks spurred this line of thinking.)



The True Telling



First, to recount the “straight” or “true” history as we are told. We are told that the Starks descend from the First Men who crossed the Arm of Dorne and waged war on the Children of the Forest and the Giants. The COTF broke the arm of Dorne, but it was too late and men continued their domination.



Then came The Pact. Humans and COTF made a peace and divided the lands up and so as to live in harmony for centuries. Then something happens in the distant north and the Long Night happens.




We all know that Brandon the Builder is the founder of House Stark and legend tell us he built the Wall and many other wondrous creations. We are told that he lived during the Long Night and founded house Stark. It is heavily implied, though never stated that Brandon the Builder was likely the Last Hero in Old Nan’s tale. The World Book furthers this:





Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.





Whether this is the tale of the Last Hero or not, the key take away is that according to legend the Starks were given the help of the Children of the Forrest whether it was help with the Wall or help to defeat the Others at the Battle for Dawn.



We are also told that the Battle for the Dawn resulted in the defeat of the Others… except for the curious story of the Night’s King.



I won’t belabor all the anachronisms in the true telling. Suffice it to say, the fog of history is thick and we can see very little. But in the ether, we can start to piece together a story whose current runs counter to the true history. Moreover, the world book really opened our eyes to the capabilities of the earliest peoples. What are we being told about the oldest times here? And why?



The First Men, or Are they?



So let’s start with the First Men. It would be a great GRRM twist if the so called “First Men” were not the first men in Westeros. This is sort of like the misconception that Columbus was the first Eurasian in the Americas.



The World Book supports this being the case for Westeros as well:






A possibility arises for a third race to have inhabited the Seven Kingdoms in the Dawn Age, but it is so speculative that it need only be dealt with briefly.



Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited. If true, the nature and origins of the chair’s makers are a mystery. Maester Kirth in his collection of ironborn legends, Songs the Drowned Men Sing, has suggested that the chair was left by visitors from across the Sunset Sea, but there is no evidence for this, only speculation.





So it is possible a race of humans predates the FM in Westeros? Is it even possible to cross from Asshai to Westeros? It is!!! From a Storm of Swords:





My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me."





Notice that the Cog is a wreck. There are no ports this far north on the west coast, perhaps it could have been headed as far north as Seaguard or the Iron Islands, but more likely was bound for Lannisport or Old Town. So this suggests that the currents across the Sunset Sea flow from Asshai to the North.



So, my theory is that a human race across the Sunset Sea, travelled to Westeros before the First Men crossed the arm of Dorne. And I will suggest they could be related to the Valyrians. The evidence:




Black Stones and Dragons



So who were these people and is one chair really evidence of their existence? First I would note the Seastone Chair is not the only Black Oily Stone in Westeros or the World. Indeed these stones seem to be the marker of some kind of progress. For instance, we know the base of the High Tower is made of this stone and is in a very basic shape. Others in Westeros include Dragonstone. We also know about the Five Forts, the City of Yeen, the Toad Stone on the Basilisk Isles and the Dragon Roads of Valyria. We are also told that Asshai itself is made of this oily black stone.



I would note that these black stones become seemingly more complicated over time. The base of the High Tower is a very basic structure as are the Five Forts, though they are very large. The Seastone chair is a chair shaped like a Kraken. The Toad Statue is more detailed and Dragon Stone is even more ornate still as was Valyria itself. This strikes me as a technological progression suggesting that the earliest humans learned to shape these stones and continued to do so as their knowledge grew.



Now, we know that Dragon Stone and the Valyrian roads were formed using Dragon flame. And other structures were built using this so called “dragon stone” as well:






Tyrosh, an altogether harder city, began as a military outpost, as its inner walls of fused black dragonstone testify. Valryian records tell us the fort was raised initially to control shipping passing through the Stepstones.





And






The heart of Old Volantis is the city-within-the-city—an immense labyrinth of ancient palaces, courtyards, towers, temples, cloisters, bridges, and cellars, all contained within the great oval of the Black Walls raised by the Freehold of Valyria in the first flush of its youthful expansion. Two hundred feet tall, and so thick that six four-horse chariots can race along their battlements side by side (as they do each year to celebrate the founding of the city), these seamless walls of fused black dragonstone, harder than steel or diamond, stand in mute testimony to Volantis’s origins as a military outpost.





So it makes sense that these earliest black oily stones are also from Dragon flame and that the dragon stone marks the progression of the technology. Shapes become more and more ornate as the technology advances.



I happened to do a word search on the books and it turns out, that Dragon Stone and the First Keep of Winterfell are the only two castles in Westeros to have gargoyles. Yes, Tyrion is sometimes called a gargoyle… but only two castles have them.... could this be a hint that their architects could be related?



Of course we know very little about the history of dragons (who make these stones):






In such fragments of Barth’s Unnatural History as remain, the septon appears to have considered various legends examining the origins of dragons and how they came to be controlled by the Valyrians. The Valyrians themselves claimed that dragons sprang forth as the children of the Fourteen Flames, while in Qarth the tales state that there was once a second moon in the sky. One day this moon was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth. In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.






And add to that:





In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power






Barth, who is often correct in his theories, suggests that Dragons were created by blood magic in Valyria. But the Maesters say dragons are older than that. And the Asshai claim the first dragons originated there and brought the dragons to Valyria. There is an easy way to reconcile these accounts.





The ancestors of the Valyrians, these no-names or proto-Valyrians (as is popular on the boards), were the ones who first bred dragons near Asshai. They then passed the skill down over the generations and the breeding was perfected and perfected and perfected. Much like the stones the dragons shaped, they were primitive at first, useful but not beautiful… still raw and in need of perfection. Over the years, the no-names and ultimately Valyrians mastered dragon breeding much as they mastered architecture with the oily stone/dragon stone.



So where does this get us? We have a race of humans that has bred a new magic race using blood magic by interbreeding wyverns and fire wyrms. And they have black stones as their markers. Some of those stones are in Westeros and pre-date the First Men.



So if these early humans are in Westeros what happened to them? Allow me to suggest:






Archmaester Fomas’s Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night’s Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.





We know Fomas isn’t correct here as we’ve seen the Others and their wights. But I theorize that the earliest humans that crossed the Sunset Sea ended up in the far north, much like Mance’s Asshai Cog and that these humans evolved as their ever more distant relatives in Essos. My theory is that these earliest humans have something to do with the Others… and the Starks…


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The Starks and the Pact


Now, let’s fast forward to the First Men and the Pact. We are told the Pact was made on the Isle of Faces during the Dawn Age. We are told that the Pact marks the end of the Dawn Age and the beginning of the Age of Heroes. Supposedly, the Pact gave FM the lands and the COTF the woods. And the two races were supposed to live in harmony during the Age of Heroes. But that seemingly did not happen and the biggest offenders seem to be the Starks.


For example:



Chronicles found in the archives of the Night’s Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point,

wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King’s last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.




And





Ancient ballads, amongst the oldest to be found in the archives of the Citadel of Oldtown, tell of how one King of Winter drove the giants from the North, whilst another felled the skinchanger Gaven Greywolf and his kin in “the savage War of the Wolves,” but we have only the word of singers that such kings and such battles ever existed.





And






BRANDON OF THE BLOODY BLADE, who drove the giants from the Reach and warred against the children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake that it has been known as Red Lake ever since.


. . .


Brandon the Builder was descended from Garth by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, these tales would have us believe






Perhaps with the exception of Brandon the Blood Blade, all of these episodes seem to take place during the Age of Heroes which post-dates the Pact. So why are the Starks violating the Pact?



Also, do these tales post-date or pre-date the Long Night? Since the stories refer to “Starks” and Brandon the Builder founded House Stark during the Long Night, one reading is that these events post-date both the Pact and the Long Night. That would make House Stark doubly treacherous as they would be violating the Pact and warring on the COTF after they helped human kind defeat the Others. Something isn’t adding up here.



I discount the possibility that the Stark wars on the COTF post-date the Long Night. It makes zero sense if the COTF aided mankind leading to the establishment of House Stark. So I think the war occurred post-Pact but pre Long Night and that the Long Night marks the end of the Age of Heroes… indeed the name Last Hero strongly suggests the end of the Age of Heroes (h/t radio westeros). Therefore, all of the Stark warring on the Giants, Wargs and COTF must take place before the Long Night.



But, there were no Starks before the Long Night, right? Well, technically this is correct. Brandon the Builder founded “House Stark.” But he had parents and grandparents… could they have been called “Starks” before the Long Night began?



There are many ways to try and reconcile the Stark behavior with the Long Night. One is that the pre-Long Night Starks are Pact violators and waged war on the COTF and only reached a peace because of the Long Night and ultimately became the heroes we know and love. Or….


Perhaps the Starks of that era were not “First Men” and therefore were never bound by the Pact.



What is Dead May Never Die



If we return to the ancient Ironborn Tale of the Seastone Chair for a moment:





Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited. If true, the nature and origins of the chair’s makers are a mystery. Maester Kirth in his collection of ironborn legends, Songs the Drowned Men Sing, has suggested that the chair was left by visitors from across the Sunset Sea, but there is no evidence for this, only speculation.





The Iron men also have a well known ancient saying, “what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.” While it makes a lot of sense for a seafaring culture to have common funereal expression for those lost at sea, the phrase “but rises again, harder and stronger” is a particularly odd turn of phrase. And it is particularly odd in light of what we know about Wights, they have risen again and are physically “harder and stronger” than before they died.



Could the Ironborn expression date all the way back to proto-Valyrians who first crossed the Sunset Sea? Could they have had some power to reanimate life?



The Valyrians and Cross Breeding:



We know much and more about the Valyrians and now a little bit about their ancestors. If there is a related race of human who crossed the Sunset Sea, what can we learn about them from their Valyrian and proto-Valyrian cousins?



The Valyrians were seemingly into genetic engineering for both humans and animals.





The great beauty of the Valyrians—with their hair of palest silver or gold and eyes in shades of purple not found amongst any other peoples of the world—is well-known, and often held up as proof that the Valyrians are not entirely of the same blood as other men. Yet there are maesters who point out that, by careful breeding of animals, one can achieve a desirable result, and that populations in isolation can often show quite remarkable variations from what might be regarded as common. This may be a likelier answer to the mystery of the Valyrian origins although it does not explain the affinity with dragons that those with the blood of Valyria clearly had.





So populations can be selectively bred to increase desired traits and populations in isolation can develop remarkable variations from what might be regarded as common. We also know that Valyrians and their ancestors cross-bred animal species with the help of blood magic to create dragons. This begs the obvious question, can we do the same with humanoid species? We are told the Valyrians did just that:






By any name, it was an evil place. The dragonlords sent their worst criminals to the Isle of Tears to live out their lives in hard labor. In the dungeons of Gogossos, torturers devised new torments. In the flesh pits, blood sorcery of the darkest sort was practiced, as beasts were mated to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.



The infamy of Gogossos outlived even the Doom. During the Century of Blood, this dark city waxed rich and powerful. Some called her the Tenth Free City, but her wealth was built on slaves and sorcery.





Blood sorcery seems to be key to interbreeding, and the Valyrians the master of this art as well.



Why is blood magic so important to interbreeding? There are many other examples of humanoid races attempting to interbreed and failing:



The women of Sothyros:





The Sothoryi are big-boned creatures, massively muscled, with long arms, sloped foreheads, huge square teeth, heavy jaws, and coarse black hair. Their broad, flat noses suggest snouts, and their thick skins are brindled in patterns of brown and white that seem more hoglike than human. Sothoryi women cannot breed with any save their own males; when mated with men from Essos or Westeros, they bring forth only stillbirths, many hideously malformed.





The women of Ib:





Though the men of Ib can father children upon the women of Westeros and other lands, the products of such unions are often malformed and inevitably sterile, in the manner of mules. Ibbenese females, when mated with men from other races, bring forth naught but stillbirths and monstrosities.





And The Mazemakers of Lorath





The mazemakers left no written records, so we shall never know. Their bones tell us that they were massively built and larger than men, though not so large as giants. Some have suggested that mayhaps the mazemakers were born of interbreeding between human men and giant women. We do not known why they disappeared, though Lorathi legend suggests they were destroyed by an enemy from the sea: merlings in some versions of the tale, selkies and walrus-men in others.





So blood magic appears to be used to increase the chances of interbreeding. Indeed this was suggested to have happened in House Targaryen. Aegon and Rhaenys produced the sickly Aenys and Rhaenys was known to have other lovers, whereas Visenya, mother of Maegor, was known to practice black magic.


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Proto-Valyrians in Cold Isolation and Blood Magic Breeding:

Lets start tying these strings together what would happen to a population of people skilled in blood magic who have migrated from a place full of stone and fire, to a place full of ice?

The maesters suggest that if put in isolation, certain population traits will come to the fore. So if the proto-Valyrians came to Westeros, then their traits that thrive in colder climates would be favored and breeding over generations would likely cause them to become more prominent. Recall our earliest meetings of the Starks:

Catelyn's bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber.

And remember Benjen on the way to the Wall:

He took a small revenge in the matter of his riding fur, a tattered bearskin, old and musty-smelling. Stark had offered it to him in an excess of Night's Watch gallantry, no doubt expecting him to graciously decline. Tyrion had accepted with a smile. He had brought his warmest clothing with him when they rode out of Winterfell, and soon discovered that it was nowhere near warm enough. It was cold up here, and growing colder. The nights were well below freezing now, and when the wind blew it was like a knife cutting right through his warmest woolens. By now Stark was no doubt regretting his chivalrous impulse. Perhaps he had learned a lesson. The Lannisters never declined, graciously or otherwise. The Lannisters took what was offered.

Or for instance Sansa in the Eyrie:

"Where is he?" the bastard girl demanded.

"His lordship is being bathed and dressed."

"He needs to make some haste. It's getting colder, can't you feel it? We need to get below Snow before the sun goes down."

"How bad is the wind?" Alayne asked her.

"It could be worse . . . and will be, after dark." Mya pushed a lock of hair from her eyes. "If he bathes much longer, we'll be trapped up here all winter with nothing to eat except each other."

When he felt the cold wind on his face, Robert quailed, but Terrance and Gyles were behind him, so he could not flee. "My lord," said Mya, "will you ride down with me?"

We know that Valyrians (or at least Targaryens) are somewhat resistant to heat. Could it be that the Starks have a natural tolerance for the cold? I have found other passages showing Ned was not bothered by cold. I can only recall one example Bran ever complaining about the cold and that was in the deep north. I don’t recall Sansa nor Arya complaining in any of their POVs. Could this be a trait that runs thousands of years deep?

Stark cold resistance could be a trait that developed over time. Or, as is suggested about the Valyrians, blood magic was used to accentuate certain traits.

As we discussed, when humanoid races attempt to interbreed, they ultimately fail… unless blood magic is involved. So is there any evidence that the Others are able to interbreed? There is:

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

So then, is there any evidence that blood magic or ritual sacrifice is used by the Others to promote breeding? I say there is:

"If you don't take him, they will."

"They?" said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, "They. They. They."
"The boy's brothers" said the old woman on the left. "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."

And of course, everyone’s favorite, the Night’s King:

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

So the sacrifice of children is seemingly necessary for the Others to reproduce. (Note, I’m not even touching the Show’s take on this) This is probably a good time to point out that there are no children in Asshai, the birthplace of dragons, either….

Construction Material

In addition to interbreeding, the proto-Valyrians were also known for the work with dragon stone or its more oily precursors. But what would happen if these peoples found themselves in a very cold region with no dragons or volcanic flames to work blood magic. Could those people adapt and build with a magical form or ice rather than with dragon stone? What would that kind of construction look like?

Well, lets start with our first glimpse of the Wall for one, notice how it can shift color:

"Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it. Not like the stories your wet nurse told you. Well, piss on the stories and piss on your wet nurse. This is the way it is, and you're here for life, same as the rest of us."

. . .

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky . . . but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky

. . .

No doubt the Wall is massive and has a magical quality to it. The only other structures so large built from mystical materials are the Five Forts and the Cities of Yeen and Asshai. So could the proto-Valyrians have learned to build with Ice? What else could they have built with magical ice? Weapons? Armor?

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

The shifting and shimmering ice sounds a lot like the Wall, doesn’t it?

And their swords too:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

And lastly, though there is no text to support it, what did the original Stark blade, “Ice” look like? What would it have been made of?

What I propose is that the proto-Valyrians who crossed the Sunset Sea adapted to learn ice magic and the Wall and the weaponry of the Others are some of their creations. So what would happen if these proto-Valyrians dabbled in genetic engineering like their cousins across the sea?

The Doom and the Long Night

The Doom of Valyria is a very mysterious event. Perhaps the Facelessmen assassinated the fire mages who controlled the 14 flames, perhaps political in-fighting did it Its of no matter, the key take away is that when human kind takes blood magic too far, it can have terrible consequences. The Doom seems to be a clear case of magic run amok.

If I am right that a race of humans came to Westeros before the Dawn Age and they practiced blood magic in the far north… then could blood magic run amok be the reason for the Long Night? I don’t think it’s a stretch.

What I think is going on here is that the Proto-Valyrians created the Others as some sort of genetic engineering experiment. Perhaps they were attempting to create some sort of super solider race or perhaps improve their own blood lines. It appears that the sacrifice of children, most likely boys, would have been used to create the Others.

But the Others seem to have turned on their creators. I would suggest the Last Hero/Brandon the Builder was a member of this peoples who sought out the COTF when they realized the horrific mistake they had made. Perhaps he was opposed to his own son being sacrificed to the Others? Or perhaps the Last Hero was the last of that race of men who retained their humanity and did not fully convert to being an Other? Thus perhaps the Starks and Others are cousins . . . at a minimum they are related back through time.

Concluding Notes:

The TLDR version is: The ancestors of the Starks are the proto-Valyrians who crossed the Sunset Sea during the Dawn Age. They used Ice Magic to rule the North warring on all the inhabitants of Westeros until they lost control leading to the Long Night. The Last Hero is Brandon the Builder who was part of this race of men which means that House Stark is a special blood line separate and distinct from just the blood of the First Men.

I suggest this theory has a lot of thematic parallels and provides an explanation for many aspects of the story that makes it quite enticing:

“What is dead may never die:” The Ironborn sayings makes a lot more sense if there was some experience with wights or re-animation in their history. The concept of a Dawn Age immigration from Asshai could support this.

“Winterfell;” Many assume Winterfell to be the place where Winter Fell. Could this be where the Last Hero betrayed the Others to ally with the COTF and the First Men?

“Winter is Coming:” By far the most bizarre of the family mottos. Most sayings are a threat or a boast of sorts “hear me roar,” “ours is the fury,” or “unbowed, unbent, unbroken.” “Winter is Coming” could be a threat if the Starks were known to send the Others after their enemies.

“There must always be a Stark in Winterfell;” If BTB was some sort of ice mage who blood line was significant in creating the Others, it would stand to reason that his blood line would be key to battling the Others. Hence, “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell” could indicate literally that, a Stark must remain there to keep the Others away.

“Gargoyles:” Only the First Keep in Winterfell and Dragonstone use Gargoyles. All other castles do not seem to.

Starks/Targs: Would the symmetry of the tale be better if these two Houses were related long long ago? If these House are two long distant relations from the same family tree? If the Starks are First Men, then they seem unrelated to Valyrians. But if Starks are descended from the proto-Valyrians, they are linked. And if they were warring conquerors during the earliest ages, then again the parallels make sense.

Others/Dragons: These are clearly the strongest supernatural creatures in the known world… one of fire and one of ice. They are opposites in many ways. Wouldn’t it make sense for their origins to be in parallel as well? If Dragons were created via blood magic, does it make sense the Others were as well?

The Wall: Surely the existence of people who can wield powerful ice magic would be as good an explanation as any for the Wall’s existence?

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I've read the first post only and so far this is looking really good. But I do have one quibble: the silk being from Asshai does not mean that the cog came directly from Asshai to Westeros. It could have been making the rounds of various ports and then headed for Westeros, and even if Asshai was the last port of call prior to the wreck, the cog could well have originated somewhere else.


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Well, it's hard to tell if the coastal men (I call them the Innsmouth men) arrived before or after the First Men's land migration. But it only makes sense that a seafaring people may have predated the mass land migration. I figure the Iron Islands, the Neck, the Sisters, and Hightower all have architecture consistent with a separate culture of people from the First Men. Plus you have the legends of the squishers in Crabclaw point that seems to have some relation to the weird goings on in the Sisters.



My personal theory is that the icy, frozen air golems that we call the White Walkers are not actually the Others of legend but are a construct born out of the stories and writings of the historical Others. My guess is the actual Others may be what the Crabclaw people call the Squishers, and the Lannisport people call the Merlings, an amphibious race who will come from the sea when they make their presence known. My guess is they currently have some human allies paving the way for that right now.


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Well done, Lord Martin. A very well-researched piece of work. I'm tempted to believe it, but I do have doubts about magical-genetic engineering playing a big part in the main series. GRRM seems so far committed to his (very effective, in my opinion) 'lobster boiling' technique with regard to depictions of magic (ie. a slow, steady increase of magic in the series, so that it carries genuine narrative weight, rather than seeming blase to jaded fantasy readers). While we've had dragons and the Others themselves so far, the sorcerous science of a long dead race seems like it would be 'turning up the heat on the lobster pot a bit too much,' if you know what I mean. I don't necessarily mean that I would dislike it, nor to I have any doubt that GRRM could depict these revelations very well, but it just seems somewhat incongruous in terms of scale of magic we've seen so far.



Then again, if there really are 2 or 3 books left in the series, I suppose there's time enough to turn up the heat. And also, my doubts are based in the idea that such revelations would be central 'on-page' events, as opposed to something that's left to the readers to surmise after more evidence is provided. So it's possible.


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Great post and well explained. I got so much hate for believing the wildings descended from a race that came before the First Men. This was back in August before TWOIAF was released and it was only after additional support was found in TWOIAF that people started to warm up to the idea. Tell me, does your theory reject the school of thought that Brandon of the Bloody Blade was descended from Garth the Greenhand? Do you feel there is a possibility of BtB being descended from a pairing of a female Other and BotBB?



Also, you post may explain why Mel felt her powers were stronger at the wall and her apparent cold resistance. The Proto-Valyrian could have had an innate ability with both Ice/Fire but thousands of years away from one or the other has caused each people to "forget" their abilities. Could the pairing of R+L have been to produce an heir with the ability for both just as his ancestors had when the first Long Night took place?

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I've read the first post only and so far this is looking really good. But I do have one quibble: the silk being from Asshai does not mean that the cog came directly from Asshai to Westeros. It could have been making the rounds of various ports and then headed for Westeros, and even if Asshai was the last port of call prior to the wreck, the cog could well have originated somewhere else.

True, but it could be direct also. And why else mention that the silk is from Asshai? Surely red silk from anywhere would be very rare north of the wall.

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Well done, Lord Martin. A very well-researched piece of work. I'm tempted to believe it, but I do have doubts about magical-genetic engineering playing a big part in the main series. GRRM seems so far committed to his (very effective, in my opinion) 'lobster boiling' technique with regard to depictions of magic (ie. a slow, steady increase of magic in the series, so that it carries genuine narrative weight, rather than seeming blase to jaded fantasy readers). While we've had dragons and the Others themselves so far, the sorcerous science of a long dead race seems like it would be 'turning up the heat on the lobster pot a bit too much,' if you know what I mean. I don't necessarily mean that I would dislike it, nor to I have any doubt that GRRM could depict these revelations very well, but it just seems somewhat incongruous in terms of scale of magic we've seen so far.

Then again, if there really are 2 or 3 books left in the series, I suppose there's time enough to turn up the heat. And also, my doubts are based in the idea that such revelations would be central 'on-page' events, as opposed to something that's left to the readers to surmise after more evidence is provided. So it's possible.

The point about going a little too far with magic is a good one. Though its the World Book that introduced this element.

However, I don't think this aspect of the past has to be a major aspect of the present story. What will be relevant is the thematic twist that the Stark ancestors created the Others thus re-emphasizing the grey nature of all of GRRM's characters. This would be doubly so if the Others were enslaved or somehow manipulated by the Stark ancestors.

This is really just a theory that attempts to fill in gaps in the earliest history using source materials....

Thanks for checking it out!

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Fascinating theory. I agree with several parts straight away and will ruminate on the rest.



A related discussion came up a few Heresy threads ago based on a Reddit theory proposing a similar proto-First Men idea.....you might find this interesting as well.



Starting at #318:


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124536-heresy-150-and-more-fallout-from-that-letter/page-16


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Well I have a few problems to be honest. You conclude that the possible 3rd race that existed during the dawn age was human, but ignore the presence of the squishers/deep ones. I can't really look past that as it shapes all of your other positions. The second problem I had was with your geography about Ashai leading to the frozen west coast of Westeros. That just doesn't jive with the world map.


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Great post and well explained. I got so much hate for believing the wildings descended from a race that came before the First Men. This was back in August before TWOIAF was released and it was only after additional support was found in TWOIAF that people started to warm up to the idea. Tell me, does your theory reject the school of thought that Brandon of the Bloody Blade was descended from Garth the Greenhand? Do you feel there is a possibility of BtB being descended from a pairing of a female Other and BotBB?

Also, you post may explain why Mel felt her powers were stronger at the wall and her apparent cold resistance. The Proto-Valyrian could have had an innate ability with both Ice/Fire but thousands of years away from one or the other has caused each people to "forget" their abilities. Could the pairing of R+L have been to produce an heir with the ability for both just as his ancestors had when the first Long Night took place?

Excellent points!

I love the Mel bit... if the same type of magic is at the heart of all sorcery, probably blood magic... that could explain why her powers grow stronger.

I usually embrace some permutation of Brandon the Builder or the Starks breeding with the COTF and/or Others. I used to think it had to happen during the Long Night... but the stories of the Warg King suggest another method for introducing Warging skills into the Stark line. I doubt BTB is an immediate descendant of Brandon the Bloody Blade (i.e. not his son). But I could see his family intermarrying into the Stark line leading to that story...

This particular theory suggests that he did not lie w/ a female Other and supposes a whole different genesis for them... but I wouldn't rule it out. The blood of Garth seems particularly fertile and that may be a way to permit interbreed in the absence of blood magic...

Your specifics wouldn't fit this theory per se... but there may be variants.

I have not looked extensively into all these underwater races, squishers, selkies etc... but, if ancient peoples are conducting experiments with blood magic... I have no doubt that half human, half sea bests could cross the oceans. House Farwynd is an odd one for instance with supposed warging skills with seals...the Hornfoots also seem more than human.

It will be interesting to see what the "dead things in the water" are capable of at Hardhomme.... wights walking out of the sea... could be interesting....

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Well I have a few problems to be honest. You conclude that the possible 3rd race that existed during the dawn age was human, but ignore the presence of the squishers/deep ones. I can't really look past that as it shapes all of your other positions. The second problem I had was with your geography about Ashai leading to the frozen west coast of Westeros. That just doesn't jive with the world map.

Well, the DOs/Squishers are one candidate I suppose... but where do they get us from a narrative perspective and a thematic one?

My initial thoughts are that these sea creatures are earlier attempts at blood magic, half human half fish creations. There could also be a reanimation aspect to them causing them to be more wight-like... this could explain the Ironborn story of men marching out of the sea...

I don't see the existence of these races as disproving anything... they are simply an alternative explanation for one or two pieces of the theory...

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Fascinating theory. I agree with several parts straight away and will ruminate on the rest.

A related discussion came up a few Heresy threads ago based on a Reddit theory proposing a similar proto-First Men idea.....you might find this interesting as well.

Starting at #318:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124536-heresy-150-and-more-fallout-from-that-letter/page-16

Hey, some really good stuff there I didn't catch.

For instance, Pyke is very mysterious and its founding is older than written history:

Pyke is so ancient that no one can say with certainty when it was built, nor name the lord who built it. Like the Seastone Chair, its origins are lost in mystery. WOIAF

Also, the Maesters note that the base of Old Town is Valyrian in material but not in design. This furthers the idea that a more primitive race of humans were using this technology in Westeros during the Dawn Age:

Who built it? When? Why? Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite…

The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valryian. WOIAF

And I like that the Reddit thread links the foundations of Old Town with Asshai, its very convincing:

Its origins are lost in the mists of time. Even the Asshai’i do not claim to know who built their city; they will say only that a city has stood here since the world began and will stand here until it ends.

Few places in the known world are as remote as Asshai, and fewer are as forbidding. Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. WOIAF

Nice find! Looking forward to your thoughts.

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