Harry the Hair Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 So we all know this part of the prophecy: "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her. "Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." The easiest way to identify Cersei's "another" is to check out what she holds dear and what was already taken from her. Here's my list:Her ChildrenCasterly RockThe Crown / Iron ThroneJaime (not sure if that'll last much longer)Her looksHer GoldThere's probably other things but they escape me for the time being. So what was taken from her for sure; Joff. In the process of being taken away; Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella and the crown. Sounds like she's gonna lose that later on in the series; her looks, her gold, CR. Who's responsible for taking away Joff that would match the "younger and more beautiful" part of the prophecy? Sansa and Margaery come to mind (there may be someone else that we haven't heard of yet.) Case for Sansa being "another"Carried the poison that killed JoffreyArguably the reason why Jaime is drifting away from Cersei (he's prioritizing his mission to find Sansa over Cersei's trial)Her mistreatment in Kings Landing caused more distaste against the Lannisters thus taking away some of their power and influence by making Cersei look like an unfit ruler-regent-mother.LF is plotting to get her in to power at Cersei's expenseCersei is willing to spend huge amounts of gold to find herSansa might have a claim on CR thanks to her marriage to TyrionCersei "sees" her during the famous walk of shame... might be some form of foreshadowingCase against SansaCan't really take Tommen and Myrcella from Cersei for the time being.To weak to overthrow Cersei for the time beingCase for Margaery being "another"Most likely knew about the plot to assassinate JoffreyHas a huge amount of influence over Tommen which causes a rift within the Cersei-Tommen relationshipDefinitely in the process of taking Cersei's crown away and her father could be named Tommen's regent.Cersei is paranoid about Margaery which makes her drink heavily thus causing her to lose the figure she was once so proud ofMakes Cersei extremely bitter which tends to push Jaime awayMargaery might have some claim on CR thanks to her marriage to TommenCase against MargaeryIf Tommen is indeed doomed to die very soon then Margaery becomes a childless widow yet again and Cersei gets some of her power backCan't really see her taking Myrcella away from Cersei for the time beingThus far both are tied for the title of the younger, more beautiful another, though I tend to lean towards Sansa just because, in the long run, things seem to be looking pretty grim for the Tyrells where as it's unclear what'll happen to Sansa. That being said Martin could totally blind side us and it'll be someone completely different... maybe even An-Other. :P Thoughts? Concerns? Childhood dreams you'd like to share? Apologies if this is like the 1000th time that you see a "who is the younger queen" type of thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It is probably dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 It is probably dany I thought about Dany but how is she responsible for taking away Joff? Plus GRRM said there will be others to sit on the iron throne by the end of the series; maybe Dany comes in after someone else dethroned the Lannisters. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 What Cersei holds dear is her power. Her beauty and sexuality are tools to keep the power. Jaime is just an extension of her own ego, a demonstration of what she can make others do for her. Her children are her only way to power, as they have the rights to the crown, not her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 What Cersei holds dear is her power.Her beauty and sexuality are tools to keep the power.Jaime is just an extension of her own ego, a demonstration of what she can make others do for her.Her children are her only way to power, as they have the rights to the crown, not her. Well she did say that she wanted to leave this world with Jaime, together. And GRRM did say in an interview that she does love her children. So maybe there is something there besides greed and lust for power. Though it's very possible that "everything you hold dear" could simply be a metaphor for power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Well she did say that she wanted to leave this world with Jaime, together. And GRRM did say in an interview that she does love her children. So maybe there is something there besides greed and lust for power. Though it's very possible that "everything you hold dear" could simply be a metaphor for power. Consider Cersei's actions and attitude towards Jaime in AFFC: does hers look like behaviour towards someone she loves and cares about? No. And I'd wager that although she loves her children, big part of that love if her viewing kids as an extension of herself and her own lust for power. If there's anyone or anything that Cersei loves fully and genuinely, it's herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Well she did say that she wanted to leave this world with Jaime, together. And GRRM did say in an interview that she does love her children. So maybe there is something there besides greed and lust for power. Though it's very possible that "everything you hold dear" could simply be a metaphor for power. You know what "want to leave the world with Jaime" means, right? Putting the romantic notions aside, she wants to decide when it's time for Jaime to die: when she does. So, if she dies, Jaime isn't free to move on and continue with his life. No. He must die as well. Considering all the times Jaime has offered Cersei good advice, he's more likely to believe and hope they could have a long life together and happy. OTOH, Cersei has ignored him every single time. She's the one that wants control in the relationship. Full control and full submission from Jaime. She even says it: making me beg is not loving me (paraphrasing). For Jaime to prove he loves her, he must submit himself to her will. About her children, I think she loves what they represent for her. Those kids were even conceived with one single purpose: to hurt Robert and get even. And give her power. But she really didn't care for them, look at how much she has bullied Tommen for not being Joffrey. And she cared little that Myrcella now has a better chance in life that she ever had, as she was sent to Dorne, a place where women have much control of her life. She doesn't like it: she thinks she has been sold like she did, when it's obvious that Trystane really likes her and will very much show some real love and care for her. This doesn't matter to Cersei. She only cares she can't control her anymore in the same way she hates now that Tommen is showing some real independence and wish to make decisions of his own. What she loves is the power she has on other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Her children, her looks, her power, her large king-sized bed, and her responsability on Robert´s death (Jaime will never forgive her that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 You know what "want to leave the world with Jaime" means, right? Putting the romantic notions aside, she wants to decide when it's time for Jaime to die: when she does. So, if she dies, Jaime isn't free to move on and continue with his life. Didn't she says they were meant to leave this world together while contemplating what to do should Jaime die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 When Ned says he loves his children with all his heart Cersei agrees. She clearly loved Joffrey. She killed Lady for him she justifies his behavior and calls him back from battle. Since his death she thinks of him constantly. With Tommen she resents him because everything he says is in Tyrell favor. Cersei was clinging to power and made enemies with everyone including the king. However I don't doubt she loves him, along with Myrcella. Sansa is the young and beautiful queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Consider Cersei's actions and attitude towards Jaime in AFFC: does hers look like behaviour towards someone she loves and cares about? No. And I'd wager that although she loves her children, big part of that love if her viewing kids as an extension of herself and her own lust for power. If there's anyone or anything that Cersei loves fully and genuinely, it's herself. There is no big difference between her attitude towards Jaime and her children actually. She loves Jaime as a being but not as a person, hence when Jaime starts to voice his opinion and behave not as she would like him to behave, she starts to treat him like crap. But she acts exactly the same towards Tommen. She loves him because he is her son, but she does not care about Tommen's feelings whatsoever, hence when he behaves not as she would like, she too starts to treat Tommen like crap ( like she did the whole Feast basically). But that's just the way she is. That's the maximum she can care about anyone. But she still cares about both Tommen and Jaime ( that's pretty apparent in her Dance chapters), just not about their feelings. That still counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 So we all know this part of the prophecy: The easiest way to identify Cersei's "another" is to check out what she holds dear and what was already taken from her. Here's my list: Her Children Casterly Rock The Crown / Iron Throne Jaime (not sure if that'll last much longer) Her looks Her Gold I agree with others that power is the biggy. My personal favourite for the young Queen is Myrcella. I don't think the young Queen needs to be any way linked to Joffs death. The prophecy talks about all she holds dead but presumably at other points in her life she had other things she held dear. pets, toys, jewels... I don't believe to fulfill the prophecy the young queen has to take away everything she has ever held dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I agree with others that power is the biggy. My personal favourite for the young Queen is Myrcella. I don't think the young Queen needs to be any way linked to Joffs death. The prophecy talks about all she holds dead but presumably at other points in her life she had other things she held dear. pets, toys, jewels... I don't believe to fulfill the prophecy the young queen has to take away everything she has ever held dear. " Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." I figured that the prophecy makes reference to things Cersei holds dear while being Queen, so Joff has to be part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 About who is the younger queen, who will take everything that Cersei holds dear, for now Sansa fits the best. She is connected to Joffrey's murder and to Jaime's abandonment of her, at the moment she is with Littlefinger who is plotting against Cersei, thus Sansa in the future may very well be in position of dooming Cersei overall. Sansa could very well be connected to future deaths of Tommen and Myrcella as well (or there is another way for her to take Tommen away). Sansa and Cersei also played a 'snowwhite' and 'evil stepmother/queen' roles in the first books and we know how that story ended. So for now, she seems to me the best candidate, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Casterly Rock is going to be taken by Dany's forces, courtesy of Tyrion's help. But I think Cersei will be dead already by then. She doesn't really care about the Rock, she just wants all the power she can get. Margaery is off the table. She didn't take Joff away, her grandmother did. And since Olenna can't be younger and more beautiful than Cersei (at least not without a boatload of Mel-type magic) that means Joff isn't part of the "all that you hold dear." Marg is also very likely to die early in TWoW, while Cersei probably won't die until at least the middle. Sansa, Arianne, and Myrcella are the most likely. Sansa for all the reasons mentioned, plus there's a chance LF is scheming to make her Aegon's bride, if he knows about Aegon. Arianne because she herself is already thinking about being Aegon's bride, and hey, he could do worse. Myrcella because quite frankly it's poetic justice for the one person Cersei never even considered as a threat (her own daughter) to be the one who takes what's left away. I even have this one down to what happens in what order and who is playing into it. It's beautiful really--in a tragic way, of course--and it's the ONLY way the valonqar would be Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Myrcella because quite frankly it's poetic justice for the one person Cersei never even considered as a threat (her own daughter) to be the one who takes what's left away. I even have this one down to what happens in what order and who is playing into it. It's beautiful really--in a tragic way, of course--and it's the ONLY way the valonqar would be Jaime. Interesting thought. So Myrcella's golden shroud would be her Maiden's Cloak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Interesting thought. So Myrcella's golden shroud would be her Maiden's Cloak? When you put it that way it sounds even more tragic. But I was thinking actual shroud. Here's how I see it playing out. Cersei wins her trial. Margaery loses hers. Margaery is executed. Olenna gets revenge by poisoning Tommen (and possibly herself) with sweetsleep. GRRM has already set up that it's a painless way to go. Myrcella is crowned queen. Jaime is named Hand. The Sand Snakes make certain that their dear friend Queen Myrcella learns that Tommen died because Cersei framed Margaery. Between Myrcella, Jaime, and Nymeria Sand, the council is easily convinced to strip Cersei of all her power. At this point Cersei has lost both sons, Jaime (who can't forgive her for Tommen's death), and her power. As Jaime and Myrcella grow closer, Cersei begins to have paranoid (and possibly disgusting) ideas about what's going on between them. On a visit to see her daughter, Cersei finally realizes who the YMBQ is, snaps, and kills Myrcella. Just as Cersei realizes what she's done, Jaime walks in. Hysterical, she confesses that she's killed Myrcella. Jaime, instead of comforting her (as she expects), turns on her, blaming her for everything that's gone wrong in his life, and hating her for taking his last child from him--the beautiful, sweet, caring daughter he's finally had a chance to know. He strangles Cersei to death with his chain of office, wrapping the hands around her pale white throat. "For hands of gold are always cold." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ...but I want Griff killing Tommen :/ *pouts mouth* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 "A Beauty! A Beauty!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ...but I want Griff killing Tommen :/ *pouts mouth* If Margaery lives, you just might get your wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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