How did Elia not recognize her own son?

[TimJames]

It is claimed that Varys smuggled Ageon out of Kings Landing by switching the baby heir out with a tanner's son (nickname the pisswater prince).

The only problem is Ageon has white hair and purple eyes, traits very unlikely for a poor tanner's son to have. Why didn't anyone know the difference?

[Mladen]

I have this theory, and it might be crazy but, what if, just think for a second, what if swap never happened?

[Lee-Sensei]

Maybe she was in on it?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have this theory, and it might be crazy but, what if, just think for a second, what if swap never happened?

To be fair, we don't know what happened there. Varys could be lying to Aegon himself about it and telling a more glorified version of whatever really happened so he could lie about it without guilt. And Gregor could have lied to Oberyn with the purpose of hurt him, like Tyrion did when he told Jaime he killed Joffrey, which we know he did not. Not saying that Aegon is 100% who he says he is, but I wouldn't discard the idea that there are a lot of things Varys isn't telling us or he has chosen not to tell Aegon.

[Mladen]

Maybe she was in on it?

This is also a viable option... But then we have the problem of woman clinging to a foreign child while her own daughter is lost.

To be fair, we don't know what happened there. Varys could be lying to Aegon himself about it and telling a more glorified version of whatever really happened so he could lie about it without guilt. And Gregor could have lied to Oberyn with the purpose of hurt him, like Tyrion did when he told Jaime he killed Joffrey, which we know he did not. Not saying that Aegon is 100% who he says he is, but I wouldn't discard the idea that there are a lot of things Varys isn't telling us or he has chosen not to tell Aegon.

True... This can go either way... But, I sincerely doubt that Elia wouldn't be able to recognize her own child. So either she has to be on board as Lee-Sensei said or it never happened.

[King17]

Probably never happened

[JonCon's Red Beard]

True... This can go either way... But, I sincerely doubt that Elia wouldn't be able to recognize her own child. So either she has to be on board as Lee-Sensei said or it never happened.

Well, one thing we do know. Rhaenys escaped from her or was taken away to safety. There is no mentions of servants, guards or nannies, but it's possible that they were about to escape and either she escaped herself or one of the people in charge of her took her and ran, and Lorche got them both. In the same way, Elia likely didn't have Aegon herself, but another lady, and she never got to know she didn't have the kid. Would be that odd that those nannies were paid by Varys to separate the babies and distract Elia for a moment so she wouldn't realise the baby was not with her?

Another chance is that Gregor already found Aegon and Elia dead and he never said anything.

[sarah.jenice]

I know people argue that Lyanna wouldn't have been clutching a baby that wasn't hers when her true daughter was there and at the mercy of Lannister soldiers, but if she would have rushed to Rhaenys room and abandoned baby "Aegon," wouldn't that have aroused suspicion? If Aegon was smuggled out of the castle by Varys, I don't think it was done without Elia's consent, so I don't see her doing anything to jeopardize the baby swap being found out if she went through all that trouble to protect her son.

[Table8]

Maybe she was in on it?

This is the only possible answer, outside the obvious that her child wasn't a double. In fact my biggest crackpot has to do with Doran - seeing the dangers of Robert's Rebellion - worked with Elia to make a switch early on. Then Varys, unknowingly, switched the switch and thinks his Aegon is real. The real Aegon was actually in Dorne. Maybe the real Aegon died shortly after of natural causes. Maybe Darkstar knows the truth. Maybe that's why Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne. And maybe Doran sent Arianne to meet with fAegon just to get more info on who this imposter Aegon is.

Or maybe, I just have too much time on my hands.

[Aderyn]

I know people argue that Lyanna wouldn't have been clutching a baby that wasn't hers when her true daughter was there and at the mercy of Lannister soldiers, but if she would have rushed to Rhaenys room and abandoned baby "Aegon," wouldn't that have aroused suspicion? If Aegon was smuggled out of the castle by Varys, I don't think it was done without Elia's consent, so I don't see her doing anything to jeopardize the baby swap being found out if she went through all that trouble to protect her son.

I agree. If she gave her permission to Varys to take her son to safety in the first place, she wouldn't risk giving away the plan straight away like that. Even, I guess, if it meant her daughter's life. Instead, I imagine she cried bitter tears much like Gilly did while hoping it was for the best.

If - there is of course an if - this ever even happened in the first place.

This is the only possible answer, outside the obvious that her child wasn't a double. In fact my biggest crackpot has to do with Doran - seeing the dangers of Robert's Rebellion - worked with Elia to make a switch early on. Then Varys, unknowingly, switched the switch and thinks his Aegon is real. The real Aegon was actually in Dorne. Maybe the real Aegon died shortly after of natural causes. Maybe Darkstar knows the truth. Maybe that's why Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne. And maybe Doran sent Arianne to meet with fAegon just to get more info on who this imposter Aegon is.

Or maybe, I just have too much time on my hands.

Yeah, maybe you are overthinking it a little... I believe the truth will turn out to be rather simple. Either Aegon was swapped as a baby, and he is Young Griff. Or he wasn't and he died as a baby.

[markg171]

It is claimed that Varys smuggled Ageon out of Kings Landing by switching the baby heir out with a tanner's son (nickname the pisswater prince).

The only problem is Ageon has white hair and purple eyes, traits very unlikely for a poor tanner's son to have. Why didn't anyone know the difference?

Who says that Elia didn't know that it wasn't her child?

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

All the way back in AGOT in one of the very first chapters we hear how Elia pleaded for mercy. But GRRM never actually said here that Elia pleaded for mercy FOR Aegon. She very well could have been pleading for her own life.

[Anythingatall]

This is also a viable option... But then we have the problem of woman clinging to a foreign child while her own daughter is lost.

That really depends how it played out. Just because he wasn't her child doesn't mean she wouldn't try and protect him. He was still a baby.

All the way back in AGOT in one of the very first chapters we hear how Elia pleaded for mercy. But GRRM never actually said here that Elia pleaded for mercy FOR Aegon. She very well could have been pleading for her own life.

Again if I had some random baby in my arms and somebody wanted to kill him I would still plead for his life regardless of if he were mine. I assume most people would.

[markg171]

That really depends how it played out. Just because he wasn't her child doesn't mean she wouldn't try and protect him. He was still a baby.

Again if I had some random baby in my arms and somebody wanted to kill him I would still plead for his life regardless of if he were mine. I assume most people would.

I still expect she wouldn't want the child to die, but it doesn't really sound as if she tried very hard to save his life. Like "No please don't kill him... Oh too late. Well shit.". Why didn't Elia attack Gregor and try and stop him killing Aegon?

That's what's always struck me as the weirdest: that Aegon died first when his mother was in the very room that he died. Where was the Lily Potter sacrifice to try and save her son?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This is also a viable option... But then we have the problem of woman clinging to a foreign child while her own daughter is lost.

<snip

Rhaenys was probably in the room with her mother at first then ran before anyone could stop her.

It's entirely possible that Elia thought her daughter had a better chance running than she did in the room with the Mountain coming at them, and of course her instinct would have her protecting the baby in her arms. Whether it was her son or not, it was an innocent child, and not protecting him would have clued Gregor and anyone else in the room in to something being off.

[SummerSphinx]

This is the only possible answer, outside the obvious that her child wasn't a double. In fact my biggest crackpot has to do with Doran - seeing the dangers of Robert's Rebellion - worked with Elia to make a switch early on. Then Varys, unknowingly, switched the switch and thinks his Aegon is real. The real Aegon was actually in Dorne. Maybe the real Aegon died shortly after of natural causes. Maybe Darkstar knows the truth. Maybe that's why Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne. And maybe Doran sent Arianne to meet with fAegon just to get more info on who this imposter Aegon is.

Or maybe, I just have too much time on my hands.

There is at least one comment made about "all the poor kids and well born kids looking alike when they frolic naked in the Water Gardens." I don't remember it off the top of my head, but it's when Doran is surveying the kids playing. It has always made me wonder about Doran switching kids.

Not sure if they could pull it off.

I know "Tower of Joy" is meant to make us think of love, joy, sex, honeymoons, etc., because we view it in light of the story of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna. But "Joy" is often associated with children, laughter, families, childsplay, etc. The Tower could have originally been a hideout for the children.

Still, I think it would be difficult, because it would need to be planned so far in advance.

Osha and Master Luwin agreed Bran and Rickon should not flee together. There was less chance of being recognized out of context, and if one group was caught the other might make it.

I think Elia agreed to split the kids since she couldn't get the three of them out together. I also think she believed that the male child was far more vulnerable than the female, since Aegon was more directly in line to the throne. Rhaenys was much farther down the chain and would be a valuable hostage. Elia was not in line at all. The fact they both died was a surprise to many. She may have assumed (incorrectly) that Rhaenys wouldn't be harmed.

I don't think the baby swap happened at the last minute, I think it was in place for a little while. Just as Gilly had feelings for Mance's child, I think Elia liked the baby well enough and "protect the baby" feelings kicked in when the brutes came.

[markg171]

There is at least one comment made about "all the poor kids and well born kids looking alike when they frolic naked in the Water Gardens." I don't remember it off the top of my head, but it's when Doran is surveying the kids playing. It has always made me wonder about Doran switching kids.

Not sure if they could pull it off.

I know "Tower of Joy" is meant to make us think of love, joy, sex, honeymoons, etc., because we view it in light of the story of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna. But "Joy" is often associated with children, laughter, families, childsplay, etc. The Tower could have originally been a hideout for the children.

Still, I think it would be difficult, because it would need to be planned so far in advance.

Osha and Master Luwin agreed Bran and Rickon should not flee together. There was less chance of being recognized out of context, and if one group was caught the other might make it.

I think Elia agreed to split the kids since she couldn't get the three of them out together. I also think she believed that the male child was far more vulnerable than the female, since Aegon was more directly in line to the throne. Rhaenys was much farther down the chain and would be a valuable hostage. Elia was not in line at all. The fact they both died was a surprise to many. She may have assumed (incorrectly) that Rhaenys wouldn't be harmed.

I don't think the baby swap happened at the last minute, I think it was in place for a little while. Just as Gilly had feelings for Mance's child, I think Elia liked the baby well enough and "protect the baby" feelings kicked in when the brutes came.

This is actually hinted at by Jaime

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him... that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Elia wanted to flee King's Landing to Dragonstone with her children but Aerys wouldn't allow it. If she couldn't officially leave with Rhaella and Viserys, why wouldn't she then try and leave by other means? We know that she wanted out. I doubt as the armies closed in she wanted to be there any more than she did when Rhaegar first died, so if Varys offered to smuggle her and the children out, why wouldn't she take the chance?

[sj4iy]

This is pretty much the argument that keeps me from believing it really happened.

I don't see how Elia didn't recognize her own child or agreed to only save one of her children while the other was in danger. It makes no sense, and stinks of BS.

[Lady Beefheart]

My thought is that, on the imo remote possibility Aegon is legit, maybe during the panic, her attention was hardly focused on the baby's features, especially since it was most likely dark in the room.

But that's on the assumption the baby was switched that same night, which I'm not 100% sure of, and I can't be fucked to go look at the text to verify one way or the other at the moment.

[SummerSphinx]

This is pretty much the argument that keeps me from believing it really happened.

I don't see how Elia didn't recognize her own child or agreed to only save one of her children while the other was in danger. It makes no sense, and stinks of BS.

But we know how it ends. Elia didn't. Separating the kids in the face of uncertainty, is different than choosing one over the other.

[Lord Lannister]

It is claimed that Varys smuggled Ageon out of Kings Landing by switching the baby heir out with a tanner's son (nickname the pisswater prince).

The only problem is Ageon has white hair and purple eyes, traits very unlikely for a poor tanner's son to have. Why didn't anyone know the difference?

The most obvious theory is there is no switch and Aegon isn't who he says he is.

Beyond that, maybe Elia was in on it. In desperation a mother would want to save at least one of her children. Rhaenys was already three, so a switch with her wouldn't be believable at all given she's been around and is old enough to talk. Aegon being a newborn, could be elxplained away without raising too much of an eyebrow. His mother had darker hair and eyes after so maybe any variations of coloring were because of that. And the Mountain doesn't strike me as the guy who takes in the small details anyways when he's in a fit of rape and murder.

And even if the Mountain and Amory suspected a switch and reported it to Tywin, so what? Do you think Tywin would admit a Targaryen prince got away on his watch? No, he'd just report the prince dead and kill his claim even if he couldn't manage it with the person. That way House Lannister doesn't look bad and if he shows up one day, his claim would be in question. Even if young Griff is who he says he is, he's going to have huge credibility issues.