Heresy 155

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 155, and its continuing sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running continuously for over three years now?

The short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion, or argument if you will, largely but not exclusively concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, and the Stark connection to both – or in short, Winter. The Heresy itself, is not a particular theory far less a belief or set of beliefs, formulated and defended, but rather an application of chaos theory

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of heresy comes from its diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued - freely and because it’s a strong thread it can support discussion and argument that might simply vanish in the maelstrom of the general forum, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [don't forget 1189] archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even, the Gods save us, heroic geology.

In short it’s a way of thinking that looks at the story holistically and openly challenges some of those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, as transcribed below does most notably emphasise that he is taking the story through five related story arcs, not one. While the story has obviously changed and moved in interesting directions since its original conception, the synopsis does indeed confirm that the overall story does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, but rather that is just one relatively minor plot device in an altogether much larger story.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[WeaselPie]

Wow, these threads move fast!

touché... lol

Ah I see now. Sure it's possible they've heard it. Else, Jon never would have. I'm just saying we've nothing to suggest in the text that there was an active intent to censor the tale. Seems far more likely that Starks in Winterfell think themselves above wildling raiders, and don't pay such rubbish much mind, on the off chance it is told 'round a fire.

I stand corrected. That's what I get for using the WB as a coffee cup pedestal. Quote:

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history but he was siad to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall... but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. The wildlings say he did and credit many songs to his name, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing about him. Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliations he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story, deflowering a Stark maid and getting her with child) or because he never existed, we cannot truly say.

I take my hat off to you, wolfmaid. Considering this inclusion, and Rhaegar's love of reading, it is clearly possible he knew the tale, if not indeed likely. I would still argue that it is unlikely Old Nan would censor the tale, or leave it out, if it were part of her repertoire. She doesn't seem to mind uncouth tales.

About the stories... we know Bran knew the story of Gorne and Grendel, but Jon heard it from Ygritte. Jon hears the story of Bael from Ygritte.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree seems a popular family fable at the Reed household, yet Bran had never heard it. Completely understandable in this case, but certainly a form of "censorship" in its own way.

Also, Old Nan wasn't the only storyteller.

"[Ned] had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. " AGOT 1

It's possible Ned himself was omitting certain stories. So is there evidence some stories were censored for some children? Probably not enough to say for certain, and I don't know how much power Ned would have had over Old Nan rambling on.

One thing we can absolutely be certain about is the dismissal of certain tales and fables being called "hearth tales" "crib tales" "Old Nan's" nonsense etc, when we as readers know some of those stories are absolutely true, and some of those who dismiss the tales are lying.

In the bigger picture, we know the Citadel awards a Valyrian link for studies in magic/occult, and Luwin himself has earned one. We further know the Citadel is fully aware certain magic exists, although they're not keen on making it a syllabus or disseminating knowledge about it to say the least. There is plenty of censorship from Maester Luwin regarding magic in the children's education.

[Black Crow]

I think in considering these stories we need to bear in mind that they are oral stories told within individual families and communities without any form of mass communication to provide or even impose uniformity or consistency. In Old Nan's tale of the Nights King she says that some identify him as a Bolton, others as an Umber or a Flint, but that in truth he was a Stark. Whether he was a Stark or not that suggests that as told in those respective houses he is identified as a Bolton or whoever, and likewise the stories themselves will be told differently and played up or down according to the differing points of view.

[WeaselPie]

I think in considering these stories we need to bear in mind that they are oral stories told within individual families and communities without any form of mass communication to provide or even impose uniformity or consistency. In Old Nan's tale of the Nights King she says that some identify him as a Bolton, others as an Umber or a Flint, but that in truth he was a Stark. Whether he was a Stark or not that suggests that as told in those respective houses he is identified as a Bolton or whoever, and likewise the stories themselves will be told differently and played up or down according to the differing points of view.

I completely agree. In fact, on closer inspection, the story of Bael seems to be more of a morality tale for the wildlings. Ygritte uses the tale to establish Jon as her "kin" when he first holds her captive. A clever way for her to avoid him committing an act of kinslaying. But this is a tale to the Stark's advantage because the reverse is also true - don't kill a Stark, because that is kinslaying. Don't cause trouble in Winterfell or steal their women because you'll meet a tragic and bloody end. Just some thoughts.

Anyway, I'll post the whole passage in context because there are some interesting tidbits here. Apparently the story of Bael is known to Stonesnake, but it's not clear if he knows the same version as Ygritte. Also weird that Ygritte asks who Jon's mother was (is she presuming a bastard of Winterfell is sired by a Stark male?)

"Were they your kin?" he asked her quietly. "The two we killed?"

"No more than you are."

"Me?" He frowned. "What do you mean?"

"You said you were the Bastard o' Winterfell."

"I am."

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"

"I never knew my mother. Or any such song."

"Bael the Bard made it," said Ygritte. "He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south."

"Winterfell's not in the south," Jon objected.

"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."

He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."

"Aye," Ygritte agreed. "It always is."

"Tell me," Jon urged her. It would be hours before Qhorin came up, and a story would help keep him awake. "I want to hear this tale of yours."

"Might be you won't like it much."

"I'll hear it all the same."

"Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider."

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.

ACOK 51

[Eira Seren]

Black Crow

Today, 01:24 AM

Feel free to set out chapter and verse in Heresy 155

I write it out in a verse -

MacDonagh and MacBride

And Connolly and Pearse

Now and in time to be,

Wherever green is worn,

Are changed, changed utterly:

A terrible beauty is born.

Hopefully though with less disasters, and far less terrible :lol:

[Black Crow]

Ah you certainly get a better class of debate on Heresy

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wow, these threads move fast!

About the stories... we know Bran knew the story of Gorne and Grendel, but Jon heard it from Ygritte. Jon hears the story of Bael from Ygritte.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree seems a popular family fable at the Reed household, yet Bran had never heard it. Completely understandable in this case, but certainly a form of "censorship" in its own way.

Also, Old Nan wasn't the only storyteller.

"[Ned] had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. " AGOT 1

It's possible Ned himself was omitting certain stories. So is there evidence some stories were censored for some children? Probably not enough to say for certain, and I don't know how much power Ned would have had over Old Nan rambling on.

One thing we can absolutely be certain about is the dismissal of certain tales and fables being called "hearth tales" "crib tales" "Old Nan's" nonsense etc, when we as readers know some of those stories are absolutely true, and some of those who dismiss the tales are lying.

In the bigger picture, we know the Citadel awards a Valyrian link for studies in magic/occult, and Luwin himself has earned one. We further know the Citadel is fully aware certain magic exists, although they're not keen on making it a syllabus or disseminating knowledge about it to say the least. There is plenty of censorship from Maester Luwin regarding magic in the children's education.

Yep... lots of interesting stuff there, WeaselPie. I've always been curious about that mention in chapter one (Bran's POV) of Ned sitting at the fire, "talk[ing] softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest." There are a couple of things about it that make wonder if Martin wishes he could take it back. For one, it's one of only two instances in the books where the phrase "age of heroes" appears without capitalization. But for another (and more significantly, in my mind), it seems to contradict Bran's later statement to Jojen that it wasn't his father who told stories, it was Old Nan:

“You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

“It was Old Nan who told the stories. Meera, go on, you can't stop there."

(3.24, BRAN)

I realize it's not terribly difficult to do a little mental retcon here - we can write off that last statement by Bran very easily, and say he was brushing Jojen off in annoyance for interrupting the story (again). But that image of Ned sitting by the fire, kicking off his work boots, lighting a pipe, and spinning yarns to the kids... well it's not unimaginable by any means, but neither does it reappear elsewhere in these books. The fact that we know several specific stories that were apparently never shared with the next generation (KoLT, SotWR, etc.), added to the repeated statements from Ned and Luwin, among others, that the CoTF are long dead and gone... lends that fireside image some real dissonance in hindsight.

Now, I won't insist on this particular idea being an error. I'm familiar enough with these books to know better than to underestimate Mr. Martin's capacity for intentional dissonance and contradiction. And in spite of the occasional mistake**, I do think the man pays a great deal of attention to the details of his storytelling. And his characterization of Ned Stark, in particular, seems very layered and nuanced. But I do wonder... and there are enough inconsistencies in those first 12-20 chapters that it seems possible they didn't get an entirely thorough rewrite once the rest of the story really took off.

Re: the song of the winter rose... it seems (from the World book) that the story is known south of the wall, and its complete absence from the library of Winterfell suggests some censorship. Certainly it would be frowned upon by the Starks... as it alleges that they are no better than wildlings themselves ("slavers and slayers and thieves..." as Bran puts it) and, indeed, that they are related to them by blood. Thus the Starks are not only duped and cuckolded by a wildling raider, but insofar as they oppose themselves to wildlings, they are also kinslayers hated by the gods. In fact, given Brandon's and Ned's reactions to the blue roses at Harrenhal (described in the World book) and Brandon's immediate fury at Rhaegar once he "heard about Lyanna" a year or so later, it seems quite reasonable to think the tale was very well known to House Stark at that time... and that Rhaegar's highly public invocation of the story was received as a great insult by Winterfell. If that was the case, and the song of the winter rose played a prominent role in triggering the tragedy of Lyanna's disappearance and death, the near-destruction of House Stark and the loss of many faithful friends and bannermen... then it would not surprise me at all if the story were not shared with the children of Ned's household. Too much baggage and grief. Too many issues and secrets, still, to risk explanation. And not just because of the initial shame and disapproval associated with the story... but also because of the way Ned's brother (among others) responded to it in the first place. Too much wolf blood...

The issue of the Citadel and its stance on magic is one we've discussed before in Heresy... and I imagine there are still fruitful areas of inquiry to explore, there. I'm reminded of Cressen's observation in ACOK prologue - that the entire world knows the silver link implies mastery of the healing disciplines... but that outside the halls of the Citadel, it is not widely acknowledged that those who know how to heal also know how to kill. It may be that a similar observation is relevant with respect to the Valyrian steel link. Luwin, among others, mastered study of the "higher mysteries" and recalls trying his hand as a boy... but it may be that the point of emphasis at the Citadel was not to encourage, but to discourage belief in such power. Not sure we've taken a large enough survey of maesters to say for sure (MaesterSam, care to weigh in?)... but Luwin and Cressen both seem to think magic is history. I'm sure we'll learn more in Winds, where (hopefully) we'll find out what Marwyn and Walgrave are up to in more detail.

(Insert other thoughts here. I'd write more, but I'm out of time... :) )

** Most recently, I noticed Jaime's sudden two-handedness when he arrives back at Harrenhal to retrieve Brienne from the Brave Companions. Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... he arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cup his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

[PrettyPig]

Veering away from RLJ for a moment, the thread below re: First Men origins was posted in General which some here may find very interesting. Food for thought, IMO.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/

** Most recently, I noticed Jaime's sudden two-handedness when he arrives back at Harrenhal to retrieve Brienne from the Brave Companions. Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... he arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cup his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

Ha! I'll put this one in the GRRM is Human file alongside Cersei's "I came out of the womb with Jaime holding on to my foot", which is just not physically possible for boy/girl twins.

[Lord Martin]

Veering away from RLJ for a moment, the thread below re: First Men origins was posted in General which some here may find very interesting. Food for thought, IMO.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/

Ha! I'll put this one in the GRRM is Human file alongside Cersei's "I came out of the womb with Jaime holding on to my foot", which is just not physically possible for boy/girl twins.

Hey thanks for the bump!

I think the heretics will like it!

[Black Crow]

Yep... lots of interesting stuff there, WeaselPie. I've always been curious about that mention in chapter one (Bran's POV) of Ned sitting at the fire, "talk[ing] softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest." There are a couple of things about it that make wonder if Martin wishes he could take it back. For one, it's one of only two instances in the books where the phrase "age of heroes" appears without capitalization. But for another (and more significantly, in my mind), it seems to contradict Bran's later statement to Jojen that it wasn't his father who told stories, it was Old Nan:

“You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

“It was Old Nan who told the stories. Meera, go on, you can't stop there."

(3.24, BRAN)

I realize it's not terribly difficult to do a little mental retcon here - we can write off that last statement by Bran very easily, and say he was brushing Jojen off in annoyance for interrupting the story (again). But that image of Ned sitting by the fire, kicking off his work boots, lighting a pipe, and spinning yarns to the kids... well it's not unimaginable by any means, but neither does it reappear elsewhere in these books. The fact that we know several specific stories that were apparently never shared with the next generation (KoLT, SotWR, etc.), added to the repeated statements from Ned and Luwin, among others, that the CoTF are long dead and gone... lends that fireside image some real dissonance in hindsight.

It may or may not turn out to be significant and as Lord Eddard is dead [is too] we may never know, but it might simply reflect different kinds of stories, with Father Stark telling the worthy history of the House Stark and other educational tales, while Old Nan tells the scary bedtime ones

[Eira Seren]

Yep... lots of interesting stuff there, WeaselPie. I've always been curious about that mention in chapter one (Bran's POV) of Ned sitting at the fire, "talk[ing] softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest." There are a couple of things about it that make wonder if Martin wishes he could take it back. For one, it's one of only two instances in the books where the phrase "age of heroes" appears without capitalization. But for another (and more significantly, in my mind), it seems to contradict Bran's later statement to Jojen that it wasn't his father who told stories, it was Old Nan:

You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

It was Old Nan who told the stories. Meera, go on, you can't stop there."

(3.24, BRAN)

I realize it's not terribly difficult to do a little mental retcon here - we can write off that last statement by Bran very easily, and say he was brushing Jojen off in annoyance for interrupting the story (again). But that image of Ned sitting by the fire, kicking off his work boots, lighting a pipe, and spinning yarns to the kids... well it's not unimaginable by any means, but neither does it reappear elsewhere in these books. The fact that we know several specific stories that were apparently never shared with the next generation (KoLT, SotWR, etc.), added to the repeated statements from Ned and Luwin, among others, that the CoTF are long dead and gone... lends that fireside image some real dissonance in hindsight.

Now, I won't insist on this particular idea being an error. I'm familiar enough with these books to know better than to underestimate Mr. Martin's capacity for intentional dissonance and contradiction. And in spite of the occasional mistake**, I do think the man pays a great deal of attention to the details of his storytelling. And his characterization of Ned Stark, in particular, seems very layered and nuanced. But I do wonder... and there are enough inconsistencies in those first 12-20 chapters that it seems possible they didn't get an entirely thorough rewrite once the rest of the story really took off.

Re: the song of the winter rose... it seems (from the World book) that the story is known south of the wall, and its complete absence from the library of Winterfell suggests some censorship. Certainly it would be frowned upon by the Starks... as it alleges that they are no better than wildlings themselves ("slavers and slayers and thieves..." as Bran puts it) and, indeed, that they are related to them by blood. Thus the Starks are not only duped and cuckolded by a wildling raider, but insofar as they oppose themselves to wildlings, they are also kinslayers hated by the gods. In fact, given Brandon's and Ned's reactions to the blue roses at Harrenhal (described in the World book) and Brandon's immediate fury at Rhaegar once he "heard about Lyanna" a year or so later, it seems quite reasonable to think the tale was very well known to House Stark at that time... and that Rhaegar's highly public invocation of the story was received as a great insult by Winterfell. If that was the case, and the song of the winter rose played a prominent role in triggering the tragedy of Lyanna's disappearance and death, the near-destruction of House Stark and the loss of many faithful friends and bannermen... then it would not surprise me at all if the story were not shared with the children of Ned's household. Too much baggage and grief. Too many issues and secrets, still, to risk explanation. And not just because of the initial shame and disapproval associated with the story... but also because of the way Ned's brother (among others) responded to it in the first place. Too much wolf blood...

The issue of the Citadel and its stance on magic is one we've discussed before in Heresy... and I imagine there are still fruitful areas of inquiry to explore, there. I'm reminded of Cressen's observation in ACOK prologue - that the entire world knows the silver link implies mastery of the healing disciplines... but that outside the halls of the Citadel, it is not widely acknowledged that those who know how to heal also know how to kill. It may be that a similar observation is relevant with respect to the Valyrian steel link. Luwin, among others, mastered study of the "higher mysteries" and recalls trying his hand as a boy... but it may be that the point of emphasis at the Citadel was not to encourage, but to discourage belief in such power. Not sure we've taken a large enough survey of maesters to say for sure (MaesterSam, care to weigh in?)... but Luwin and Cressen both seem to think magic is history. I'm sure we'll learn more in Winds, where (hopefully) we'll find out what Marwyn and Walgrave are up to in more detail.

(Insert other thoughts here. I'd write more, but I'm out of time... :) )

** Most recently, I noticed Jaime's sudden two-handedness when he arrives back at Harrenhal to retrieve Brienne from the Brave Companions. Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... he arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cup his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

:cheers:

Well said. I noticed that passage with Ned the storyteller and I thought the same thing. he's omitting details.

[JNR]

Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... Jaime arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cupped his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

Yes, it seems Mr. Martin must've gotten into King Tyrion's stash circa 1999 or so. So must've Ms. Groell, to have missed a thing like that.

As we all know, hand is tough to get.

Of course, these days, Theon has an even stronger objection.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Of course, these days, Theon has an even stronger objection.

Yet even Theon may hope... mayhaps Martin will commit some similar error in the future, by which our wasted young Greyjoy may profit!

(Sorry Urrax... I know you hate that "s".)

[JNR]

Yet even Theon may hope

If the dragon has three heads, I suppose anything's possible.

[Black Crow]

Most recently, I noticed Jaime's sudden two-handedness when he arrives back at Harrenhal to retrieve Brienne from the Brave Companions. Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... he arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cup his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

At least he still has two feet. I'd pay good money to watch him try to kick the gates down with one. :devil:

[Eira Seren]

At least he still has two feet. I'd pay good money to watch him try to kick the gates down with one. :devil:

It's only a flesh wound!

[Voice]

Lol

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Veering away from RLJ for a moment, the thread below re: First Men origins was posted in General which some here may find very interesting. Food for thought, IMO.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/

Ha! I'll put this one in the GRRM is Human file alongside Cersei's "I came out of the womb with Jaime holding on to my foot", which is just not physically possible for boy/girl twins.

I thought that bit about the twins alluded to the story of Jacob and Esau's birth.

[PrettyPig]

It if was indeed a Biblical allusion, he really should have consulted with an Ob-gyn first to see if it was possible with male-female twinning, which it isn't.

It's just a very minor nitpick of mine. Which makes total sense in a fantasy series about dragons and skinchangers and magic ice walls, but SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, people, I can only take it so far. :P