Heresy 155

[Matthew.]

Veering away from RLJ for a moment, the thread below re: First Men origins was posted in General which some here may find very interesting. Food for thought, IMO.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/

I don't know how this bit of information would fit in with his theories (or how valid this nugget of information is, for that matter), but in the Season 4 Lore & History extras for the show, they expand on the legend of the First King, and say he was the first man to carry a crown into Westeros, and that he was responsible for leading a unified army of men against the CotF; later, he would die in the north on his throne.

This basic premise would fit with what Theon says of the First King in aDwD, giving him credit for leading the FM across the land bridge into Westeros; we're also told that he's buried in the Great Barrow in the North, and that he placed a curse on anyone that would seek to rival his power.

The reason I think this might actually be plausible is that the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne and the flooding of the Neck both make a great deal more sense to me as reactions to an active invasion, as opposed to being a late response to a gradual loss of land to settlers.

[Urrax2]

Re foot-holding: Maybe (maybes?) Cersei was exaggerating for effect.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Re foot-holding: Maybe (maybes?) Cersei was exaggerating for effect.

Yes. Or maybe(s) it's just one more subliminal indication that she wishes she'd been born male...

[MaesterSam]

Well, the second can't happen without the first. But I do think the first can happen without the second. therefore, to me, the first is merely a link in a chain, but the second is considerably more defining as a causal link.

To try and be clearer, its like a flow diagram. R+L leads to BatKL. BatKL leads to Stark Losses. But R+L could also have lead to other things instead (should have IMO, Brandon's actions were stupid and pointless and therefore unforeseeable) whereas BatKL lead directly to Stark Losses. The manner of those losses was up to Aerys, but on the information we have Aerys was heavy handed but well within his rights up to the time he bent the rules of the trial by combat.

Therefore BatKL is culpable in Stark Losses, R+L very much less so.

IMO of course.

This is a good point. Assuming it was not really an abduction and rape (in which case he was probably justified in his response), Brandon overreacted to (and/or misunderstood the cause of) Lyanna's disappearance.

If Brandon had instead sent a raven to KL politely inquiring as to the whereabouts of his sister, things might have turned out very differently.

That being said, I think Lyanna (at 16, a woman grown) had enough sense to know that "running off with a prince" (my words, I realize you didn't necessarily imply this) would not likely work out well. Rhaegar was already married, she was promised to Robert, and Robert also happened to be Ned's closest friend. So she certainly isn't blameless in all this.

This of course brings us back to the question: if Lyanna went willingly, and Brandon misunderstood the situation, why did she not come forward after Aerys had him arrested? This, IMO, is the bigger problem with her behavior. It's one thing for a young girl to impulsively run off with a handsome prince, but quite another to choose him over her family when she sees that her family is in trouble.

[MaesterSam]

If the dragon has three heads, I suppose anything's possible.

:lol: Good one. Once again.

[Armstark]

Regarding Luwin and magic:

I have no doubt that Luwin does not truly believe that there is no magic. Rather I assume that the grey sheep send him to Winterfell to actively surpress any emergance of magic. Just take a look at how he reacted to Bran's dreams: he gave him potions for dreamless sleep and locked the direwolfs away. This suggests that Luwin had a good idea about what was going on and ergo he knows that magic still exists.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Re foot-holding: Maybe (maybes?) Cersei was exaggerating for effect.

Maybe. The only allusion I see in the biblical tale of the toe-holding is the inheritance. But the secondborn heel grabber (Jaime) lost his inheritance when he became a Kingsguard which the firstborn wanted. I doubt it has any significance in their overall arc.

[MaesterSam]

(...)

The issue of the Citadel and its stance on magic is one we've discussed before in Heresy... and I imagine there are still fruitful areas of inquiry to explore, there. I'm reminded of Cressen's observation in ACOK prologue - that the entire world knows the silver link implies mastery of the healing disciplines... but that outside the halls of the Citadel, it is not widely acknowledged that those who know how to heal also know how to kill. It may be that a similar observation is relevant with respect to the Valyrian steel link. Luwin, among others, mastered study of the "higher mysteries" and recalls trying his hand as a boy... but it may be that the point of emphasis at the Citadel was not to encourage, but to discourage belief in such power. Not sure we've taken a large enough survey of maesters to say for sure (MaesterSam, care to weigh in?)... but Luwin and Cressen both seem to think magic is history. I'm sure we'll learn more in Winds, where (hopefully) we'll find out what Marwyn and Walgrave are up to in more detail.

(Insert other thoughts here. I'd write more, but I'm out of time... :) )

** Most recently, I noticed Jaime's sudden two-handedness when he arrives back at Harrenhal to retrieve Brienne from the Brave Companions. Just a page after he wakes from that weir-dream to rediscover the "ugly stump" at the end of his arm... he arrives back at the monstrous castle, and "cup his hands to shout. 'You in there! Open your gates, or I'll kick them down!' "

Well, since you asked... sure, here's my two cents' worth.

Luwin, IMO, does not believe magic is real. He doesn't believe Bran and Rickon after they both dream that Ned is dead, and seems legitimately shocked when the raven arrives. More importantly, he doesn't seem to realize that all of the Stark kids are wargs, even though it's rather obvious, with the direwolves following them around and protecting them. Bran flat-out tells him he has wolf and crow dreams, and Luwin dismisses it. So I am fairly confident he really doesn't believe magic is real.

Marwin, of course, does believe it is real. And he is nonetheless tolerated by the Citadel. It would be interesting to know if Qyburn learned his "skills" from Marwin at the Citadel, or like Marwin had to travel elsewhere for such instruction. Qyburn was ultimately kicked out, but the more we learn about Qyburn, the less surprising I find this.

In the pro-magic camp we also have Aemon of course. He seems to believe in prophecy, and seems open to the possibility of a burning sword when he asks to see Stannis' Lightbringer. He also seems unaware of the theory that maesters helped kill dragons, when he sends Sam there to tell them about Dany.

So while I of course don't have a true answer to your question, I find it unlikely that maesters are trained in the higher arts and then told to deny their existence. It seems more likely that the training is not truly suitable to teach magic skills, and therefore results in maesters who, despite being aware of the theory behind it, don't believe in and can't perform magic. The rare ones like Marwin and Aemon are exposed to magic elsewhere, so they know there is more to it than what the Citadel would have them believe.

*For the record, I am excluding dragons from magic in general. Their skulls are in KL for all to see, so denying their existence seems entirely pointless. So IMO, the fact that the maesters may have helped bring about their demise doesn't automatically make them anti-magic. Though they may be the only ones who realize the dangers of it, through the hidden scrolls deep below the Citadel.

[Black Crow]

Regarding Luwin and magic:

I have no doubt that Luwin does not truly believe that there is no magic. Rather I assume that the grey sheep send him to Winterfell to actively surpress any emergance of magic. Just take a look at how he reacted to Bran's dreams: he gave him potions for dreamless sleep and locked the direwolfs away. This suggests that Luwin had a good idea about what was going on and ergo he knows that magic still exists.

Well he does of course have the appropriate link so may well have been chosen by the Citadel [though not necessarily by the "grey sheep"] as being very properly qualified to serve at Winterfell and it might even provide a reason for the apparent disappearance of his predecessor, perhaps recalled and replaced precisely because Luwin was better qualified in the magical side of things.

[MaesterSam]

Regarding Luwin and magic:

I have no doubt that Luwin does not truly believe that there is no magic. Rather I assume that the grey sheep send him to Winterfell to actively surpress any emergance of magic. Just take a look at how he reacted to Bran's dreams: he gave him potions for dreamless sleep and locked the direwolfs away. This suggests that Luwin had a good idea about what was going on and ergo he knows that magic still exists.

Funny how we can read the same text and reach opposite conclusions (see my post above). It could certainly be interpreted either way.

In defense of my claims above, I'm pretty sure Bran wanted dreamless sleep, but would have to double check. As for the wolves though, it was only Shaggy that was locked away, and that's because he bit people. This seems like a valid reason to lock him up, IMO.

[Black Crow]

Funny how we can read the same text and reach opposite conclusions (see my post above). It could certainly be interpreted either way.

In defense of my claims above, I'm pretty sure Bran wanted dreamless sleep, but would have to double check. As for the wolves though, it was only Shaggy that was locked away, and that's because he bit people. This seems like a valid reason to lock him up, IMO.

Yes and it was Catelyn who wanted Summer out of the room until he burst in and ate the assassin. I don't recall Bran wanting dreamless sleep though. I know the one with his father was more disturbing than usual but I rather had the impression that he looked forward to his nightly visits and to flying.

[Voice]

This is a good point. Assuming it was not really an abduction and rape (in which case he was probably justified in his response), Brandon overreacted to (and/or misunderstood the cause of) Lyanna's disappearance.

If Brandon had instead sent a raven to KL politely inquiring as to the whereabouts of his sister, things might have turned out very differently.

That being said, I think Lyanna (at 16, a woman grown) had enough sense to know that "running off with a prince" (my words, I realize you didn't necessarily imply this) would not likely work out well. Rhaegar was already married, she was promised to Robert, and Robert also happened to be Ned's closest friend. So she certainly isn't blameless in all this.

This of course brings us back to the question: if Lyanna went willingly, and Brandon misunderstood the situation, why did she not come forward after Aerys had him arrested? This, IMO, is the bigger problem with her behavior. It's one thing for a young girl to impulsively run off with a handsome prince, but quite another to choose him over her family when she sees that her family is in trouble.

She had the wolf blood, and coming to the aid of Brandon would mean becoming Robert's fiancé all over again. If she went willingly, it makes sense for her to stay gone...like Arya.

[WeaselPie]

Yes and it was Catelyn who wanted Summer out of the room until he burst in and ate the assassin. I don't recall Bran wanting dreamless sleep though. I know the one with his father was more disturbing than usual but I rather had the impression that he looked forward to his nightly visits and to flying.

Shaggy did attack Luwin in the crypts. Then the boys and Osha outvoted him about locking the wolves up again. That's a great chapter, except for the news it brings at the end.

And what did happen to Walys Flowers - Lyanna's maester? Hrm.

[MaesterSam]

Yes and it was Catelyn who wanted Summer out of the room until he burst in and ate the assassin. I don't recall Bran wanting dreamless sleep though. I know the one with his father was more disturbing than usual but I rather had the impression that he looked forward to his nightly visits and to flying.

I was thinking of this passage below. You are right, Bran doesn't ask for the potion. But he welcomes the idea of dreamless sleep, so it's not something Luwin pushes on him. The passage follows the incident of Bran howling at Luwin in defiance, so Luwin probably thought the dreams were making him lose his mind.

ETA: This is early in ACOK. Bran is still struggling to understand the wolf dreams, and IMO Lusin is trying to help.

The door to his bedchamber opened. Maester Luwin was carrying a green jar, and this time Osha and Hayhead came with him. “I’ve made you a sleeping draught, Bran.”

Osha scooped him up in her bony arms. She was very tall for a woman, and wiry strong. She bore him effortlessly to his bed.

“This will give you dreamless sleep,” Maester Luwin said as he pulled the stopper from the jar. “Sweet, dreamless sleep.”

“It will?” Bran said, wanting to believe.

“Yes. Drink.”

Bran drank. The potion was thick and chalky, but there was honey in it so it went down easy.

“Come the morn, you’ll feel better.” Luwin gave Bran a smile and a pat as he took his leave.

Osha lingered behind. “Is it the wolf dreams again?”

Bran nodded.

“You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back.”

“The gods?” he murmured, drowsy already. Osha’s face grew blurry and grey. Sweet, dreamless sleep, Bran thought.

[Black Crow]

Well I suppose he is only a child and there's no sense in pushing him too hard.

[Black Crow]

And what did happen to Walys Flowers - Lyanna's maester? Hrm.

Well we don't know. Marwin is pretty scathing about the status of magic at the Citadel, but that's not to say that the illuminati don't have their reasons for excluding him and that those reasons have nothing to do with not believing in magic. And that's why, given that we're not actually told that Maester Walys dropped off his perch, I'm inclined to wonder whether he might have been recalled in order to replace him with a qualified practitioner of magick.

[Balerion06]

This is a good point. Assuming it was not really an abduction and rape (in which case he was probably justified in his response), Brandon overreacted to (and/or misunderstood the cause of) Lyanna's disappearance.

If Brandon had instead sent a raven to KL politely inquiring as to the whereabouts of his sister, things might have turned out very differently.

Does anyone even blame Brandon in the text?

I'm legitimately asking. As far as I recall, nobody in the text seems to act or suggest that Brandon wasn't within his rights to go to King's Landing and demand Rhaegar come out to face him. The whole "demanding Rhaegar come out and die" seems to be dramatic embellishment anyway.

This whole idea of blaming Brandon for things escalating out of control seems to have started as a way to keep R and L's hands (and their story of twoo luv) squeaky clean.

[Black Crow]

She had the wolf blood, and coming to the aid of Brandon would mean becoming Robert's fiancé all over again. If she went willingly, it makes sense for her to stay gone...like Arya.

Again we don't know but I do wonder whether people might read too much into theWolf blood reference, because it doesn't necessarily mean her deciding to run off with the raggle-taggle gypsy o. It might simply be the case that she refused to travel in the family party or with an escort and was riding to Riverrun all by herself. Then just like Tyrion she stopped at the Inn by the Crossroads to use the jakes and have a swift half and was thus all alone when Rhaegar and his Hells Angels chapter tooled up.

[Black Crow]

Does anyone even blame Brandon in the text?

I'm legitimately asking. As far as I recall, nobody in the text seems to act or suggest that Brandon wasn't within his rights to go to King's Landing and demand Rhaegar come out to face him. The whole "demanding Rhaegar come out and die" seems to be dramatic embellishment anyway.

This whole idea of blaming Brandon for things escalating out of control seems to have started as a way to keep R and L's hands (and their story of twoo luv) squeaky clean.

Tend to agree and can't help but observe that Aerys didn't exactly try very hard to find Rhaegar.

[Matthew.]

Regarding Luwin and magic:

I have no doubt that Luwin does not truly believe that there is no magic. Rather I assume that the grey sheep send him to Winterfell to actively surpress any emergance of magic. Just take a look at how he reacted to Bran's dreams: he gave him potions for dreamless sleep and locked the direwolfs away. This suggests that Luwin had a good idea about what was going on and ergo he knows that magic still exists.

I don't know how much Luwin may or may not have known, but I'm convinced that there's an inner circle at the Citadel that knows a great deal more than they're letting on, and has access to things such as the completed works of Septon Barth; I'd go as far as to say that there are those that understand magic on a greater level than superstitious zealots like Mel, which is why they would know how to suppress magic.

For example, we know that the practice of blood sacrifice to the weirwoods was happening as recently as five centuries ago, yet seems to have fallen into decline; I'd bet dollars to donuts that the decline of this practice roughly coincided with northern nobility taking maesters into their households. If I'm not mistaken, Aeron Greyjoy believed that if the maesters had their way, they would gradually erode the old ways in the Iron Islands, and I suspect something similar happened in the households that keep the Old Gods.