Why did Rhaegar and Lyanna have to run away?

[TyshaLives]

I've only read the books once and I haven't researched a lot, so bear with me.

Rhaegar was the crown prince. He was married but I think TargPolygamy was not a big deal.

Lyanna was the daughter of Winterfell. She was betrothed to Robert. So basically only that was an obstacle.

Assuming that R and L fell in love at the Harrenhall Tourney or that R got enamoured with L at the Harrenhall Tourney, he could have tried to court her, except for the issue of her betrothal.

Now sometime after this, R and L elope or R steals L away. I read a post (on reddit, I think) that had done some timeline research and said that R and L ran away probably when Brandon was on his way to marry Catelyn. L was probably with him or something.

Since I don't believe that R and L were two lovesick teens who just couldn't bear to be apart anymore, I think something had to have happened that triggered the running away.

Obviously nobody was getting her married to Robert right then (she was 13, so I'm guessing), which would be the only imminent problem (IMO) at that time. So my guesses for the elopement are:

1. Pregnant with Rhaegar's baby?

2. Afraid of Something? (Robert's advances?)

Even I don't buy into my first reason but the second could be true. But even that is flawed because L could've told her brothers to deal with that or done something herself.

But there has to be some trigger that made R and L go, 'yeah we have got to get outta here, and fast.'

Could there be some major misunderstanding? Like they didn't mean to elope but they had to, for some reason? And then they had no way to inform anyone and later Robert's Rebels wouldn't believe any news, even true news, that came from the Targaryen camp?

The biggest issue for me is- How will we find out the truth? Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned, Brandon, Jon Arryn are dead. And Howland Reed probably knows only what went down in the Tower of Joy.

I'm thinking Benjen knows what was really up, being closest to Lyanna. And nobody took him seriously because he was a kid and later because Aerys had escalated things by killing Rickard and Brandon.

Just a sidenote: Nobody except Robert (and maybe Brandon) speaks of R&L as a forced thing. They all reminiscence about it like it was a tragic love story. So I think the Starks and Arryns went to war mainly because Rickard and Brandon were killed. It was only Robert who went to fight under the delusion of Lyanna being in trouble. I mean, of course, Ned wanted his sister to be safe and all (hence the Tower of Joy). But I think, over the years, everybody sort of came to know that it was consensual (which would explain everyone's favourable opinion of R). Maybe even Robert knew but refused to believe it or nobody told him because they were afraid that he would get angry.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before (I'm sure it has) but I'm new! If someone just wants redirect me to a similar thread, that would be great too.

If not, then let the discussing begin!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Welcome! :)

New of Lyanna's disappearance reached Brandon while he was travelling with Rickard and the wedding party to Riverrun from the North. Lyanna was 15/16 at the time. She had come face to face with Rhaegar ten leagues from Harrenhal, and thus, hadn't been with Brandon when it all happened.

Jon Arryn raised the banners because Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert. Neither of them had done anything wrong, thus Jon Arryn revolted. The Stormlands partly followed Robert, and the North, due to what happened to Brandon, Rickard, and other northmen, all supported Ned.

People have no idea what happened with Lyanna, and those who speak of Rhaegar, either knew him better than the average westerosi lord (Barristan) or is trying to remain in favor with Daenerys (Jorah). Robert will never confess that it had been consensual, should he have his suspicions (which he might not even have). Last is Ned, who does know what happened, and whose opinion on Rhaegar (neutral) is rather important.

I wouldn't go as far as to day that Robert, or the remainder of Westeros, for that matter, believes it was with Lyanna's consent.

A year passed between Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance, so being pregnant with Rhaegars baby won't have been the reason. ;) such a pregnancy could have come during the war, though, as is discussed in length in the pinned R+L=J threads.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I believe that the answer to your question might be based on information that the readers simply do not have yet -- but I will give it a shot. Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed hidden for a long time (I think almost a year). I have a theory, but I admit that this theory is based on a bit of speculation and so could be entirely wrong. We have some inkling that Rhaegar knew that his father was unstable and had some intent to try to replace him as king (or possibly have him declared incompetent and name himself as regent--pure speculation on my part, but I just don't see Rhaegar "usurping" his own father). We also know that Rhaegar had a bit of an obsession about TPTWP prophesy -- we have the HOTU vision in which Rhaegar states after the birth of Aegon that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads. We also know that Elia was told she could have no more children (whether she truly became barren or whether a third pregnancy simply was certain to kill her is unclear -- but in either case, she was not going to give Rhaegar the third head of the dragon).

So Rhaegar has two problems. First, Rhaegar believes that his children will be the three heads of the dragon, but his wife cannot give him a third child. He needs to have a third child with someone else. Second, he has an unstable father who is a threat to Westeros generally and the Targ dynasty specifically. But Rhaegar has to be careful in how he deals with his father because the man is King and thus powerful. Rheagar and his father are somewhat estranged, so Rhaegar might have issues if he defies his father too directly.

Personally, I think that once Rhaegar realized that he would not have the three heads of the dragon with Elia, his thoughts went to Lyanna -- a woman whom he admired from the tourney and her actions as TKOTLT -- he won the tourney for her and crowned her, so he obviously had some feelings for her -- and he came to realize that she was ice to his fire. I believe that Rhaegar realized that he had been mistaken when he thought that Aegon would be TPTWP because the song of TPTWP is to be A Song of Ice and Fire -- and a child with Lyanna would be the embodiment of A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). But even if Rhaegar did not believe his child with Lyanna would be TPTWP, at a minimum, Rhaegar needed someone to give birth to a third child to be the third head of the dragon. Presumably, Rhaegar has some communication with Lyanna and finds out about her unhappiness with her engagement. Rhaegar proposes a solution -- they will go off and get married. For some reason, perhaps due to Elia's inability to have more children, Lyanna is convinced that being a second wife to Rhaegar is better than being the only wife of Robert.

But they both have issues to overcome. While the polygamy issue is not completely irrelevant, it is not as big a barrier as many consider it to be. The Targs have a history of polygamy (even if the last one was centuries ago), and the religion of the First Men (of which the Starks are a part) permit polygamy. No, the real problems are their fathers. Rhaegar risks enraging his father by getting married without Aerys's permission. Lyanna risks enraging her father because he promised her to Robert. I believe that they decided that the solution to their problems was to stay hidden until Lyanna had a baby. If they revealed themselves and their marriage before Lyanna had a child, a greater risk existed that pressure would be brought to try to annul the marriage -- and the polygamy issue could be used as an excuse to accomplish this goal (at least on the Targ side of things). But once a baby is born, the Starks certainly are going to have to accept the situation, and Aerys also is more likely to give in. There is precedent in Targ history to some extent that a marriage of Targ children not authorized by the King is not undone once consummated. A baby is not only proof of consummation, but also independent reason not to try to annul the marriage.

Based on what Rhaegar said to Jaime before going to battle at the Trident, Rhaegar also seemed to have a plan for how to replace Aerys (assuming the Targ side won the war). When Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, he would not have expected there to be a war. But I assume he still had some plan to replace Aerys -- or as I suggested above, perhaps merely a plan to make Rhaegar the regent somehow. Presumably, however, Rhaegar must have thought that he had to wait for a baby to be born to put this plan into place as well. Perhaps Rhaegar thought he could use Lyanna as his wife to get the Starks on his side in a Great Council of some kind. Again, the details of how Rhaegar thought he could deal with his father is rather unclear.

So there you have it. A theory as to why Rhaegar and Lyanna had to run away and stay hidden.

[239JMFL34109]

i always felt that running away was not the original plan and they were betrayed

[SummerSphinx]

I think there is definitely room for "something else going on that forced their moves." I don't know what it is.

I have a pet theory (probably discussed to death somewhere) that Lyanna could Warg horses. I think she helped a Knight of the Laughing Tree conspiracy by using her Warg powers in some way.

I speculate that Howland and Benjen knew about her powers. Rhaegar discovers them at the Harrenhall tournament when he is hunting down the KotLT. Maybe he says something to Lyanna like "If you can really Warg horses, help me win the tournament and I won't tell my dad."

So she shows off for Rhaegar, either Warging his horse or the horses of his competition so Rhaegar wins. Since Lyanna helped him win, he crowns her Queen of Love and Beauty.

At this point, Rhaegar is entirely convinced that Lyanna's powers are linked to a prophecy, dragon riding, the Song of Ice and Fire, or his son, the PwwP.

Maybe he is even plotting something against Aerys, and he wants to use her skills.

Or maybe Aerys was going to kill Starks, anyway, and Brandon's actions just gave him an excuse.

But I think that there could be some other reason nobody knew about for him suddenly spiritin her away.

Maybe he succeeded in hatching a dragon egg, but had no connection with the baby dragon and wanted to try Lyanna because of her ability with horses.

I cannot guess, but it is fun to wonder.

To be fair, though, people in love/lust do really stupid things all of the time in real life. Really, really stupid things. Even clever people who are not teens who have a lot to lose. There doesn't need to be more. Along those lines, if the affair began at Harrenhall, they may have found ways to meet off and on after that. She could have been pregnant from a secret tryst that occured after Harrenhall.

[SummerSphinx]

One more thought: Bloodraven may have sent dreams or crows or ravens to somebody, impacting decisions.

[Lee-Sensei]

I've only read the books once and I haven't researched a lot, so bear with me.

Rhaegar was the crown prince. He was married but I think TargPolygamy was not a big deal.

Lyanna was the daughter of Winterfell. She was betrothed to Robert. So basically only that was an obstacle.

Assuming that R and L fell in love at the Harrenhall Tourney or that R got enamoured with L at the Harrenhall Tourney, he could have tried to court her, except for the issue of her betrothal.

Now sometime after this, R and L elope or R steals L away. I read a post (on reddit, I think) that had done some timeline research and said that R and L ran away probably when Brandon was on his way to marry Catelyn. L was probably with him or something.

Since I don't believe that R and L were two lovesick teens who just couldn't bear to be apart anymore, I think something had to have happened that triggered the running away.

Obviously nobody was getting her married to Robert right then (she was 13, so I'm guessing), which would be the only imminent problem (IMO) at that time. So my guesses for the elopement are:

1. Pregnant with Rhaegar's baby?

2. Afraid of Something? (Robert's advances?)

Even I don't buy into my first reason but the second could be true. But even that is flawed because L could've told her brothers to deal with that or done something herself.

But there has to be some trigger that made R and L go, 'yeah we have got to get outta here, and fast.'

Could there be some major misunderstanding? Like they didn't mean to elope but they had to, for some reason? And then they had no way to inform anyone and later Robert's Rebels wouldn't believe any news, even true news, that came from the Targaryen camp?

The biggest issue for me is- How will we find out the truth? Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned, Brandon, Jon Arryn are dead. And Howland Reed probably knows only what went down in the Tower of Joy.

I'm thinking Benjen knows what was really up, being closest to Lyanna. And nobody took him seriously because he was a kid and later because Aerys had escalated things by killing Rickard and Brandon.

Just a sidenote: Nobody except Robert (and maybe Brandon) speaks of R&L as a forced thing. They all reminiscence about it like it was a tragic love story. So I think the Starks and Arryns went to war mainly because Rickard and Brandon were killed. It was only Robert who went to fight under the delusion of Lyanna being in trouble. I mean, of course, Ned wanted his sister to be safe and all (hence the Tower of Joy). But I think, over the years, everybody sort of came to know that it was consensual (which would explain everyone's favourable opinion of R). Maybe even Robert knew but refused to believe it or nobody told him because they were afraid that he would get angry.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before (I'm sure it has) but I'm new! If someone just wants redirect me to a similar thread, that would be great too.

If not, then let the discussing begin!

1) More then just Starks were killed.

2) Roberts went to war because his head as called for.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

To me, Rhaegar was finding a way to hide FROM VARYS and his spies. On the way, he found Lyanna.

And then, Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

To me, Rhaegar was finding a way to hide FROM VARYS and his spies. On the way, he found Lyanna.

And then, Jon.

But were they waiting for and why? They certainly could not have planned to stay at ToJ forever.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But were they waiting for and why? They certainly could not have planned to stay at ToJ forever.

Rhaegar could have planned to stay there alone (with A and O). Specially if he wanted to plan to recruit Lords to his cause and depose Aerys.

The problem is the timing. Travelling from Riverlands to Dorne could have likely taken a month. In that time, they could have had limited access to news of what was happening in KL. It's probably that they JUST found out Brandon and Rickard died when or after they got to ToJ, hence, even if Rhaegar planned to move somewhere else, they had to stay for the safety of Lyanna and his baby (if she was already pregnant).

[Pod The Rod]

If they were going to get married, they HAD to hide. Both the STAB alliance and the Targaryen loyalists would have been coming after them, though for different reasons.

[Mithras]

Because there is no way Aerys would let them marry. Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted to pull out a Jaehaerys-Shaera. But they could never have anticipated what would happen afterwards.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Poligamy was banished from the Targaryen's custom since Maegor the Cruel, he was the last one to marry more than one wife at the same time.

So yes, Jon would still be a bastard according to the Faith of the Seven, that is the official religion of the Iron Throne.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Poligamy was banished from the Targaryen's custom since Maegor the Cruel, he was the last one to marry more than one wife at the same time.

So yes, Jon would still be a bastard according to the Faith of the Seven, that is the official religion of the Iron Throne.

You are making quite a few statements as if they are proved facts that are not proven facts. You say polygamy was "banished." There is no evidence for this assertion. No longer practiced actively -- yes -- but banished, no. There is evidence that Targs after Maegor considered polygamy as an option -- even if not taken. No one ever stated that it was outlawed -- no one, ever in all the books and side books. No statement that after Maegor, the laws were changed to outlaw polygamy. And even the Faith seem to accept marriages performed in other religous faiths as genuine, even if the marriage would not have been allowed under the Faith. So even if your incorrect assertion that polygamy was "banished" from Targ custom is accurate, if the marriage was performed under another tradition (e.g., old gods -- before a weirwood), even the Faith would accept that the relationship as a marriage. But even if you are correct that Jon would be a bastard and marriage would not be recognized, it is irrelevant to the question at hand. The issue is what Rhaegar and Lyanna believed to be true. All that matters for purposes of the OP question of why they went into hiding is whether the two of them believed they could have a marriage. It does not really matter whether they would have been correct.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are making quite a few statements as if they are proved facts that are not proven facts. You say polygamy was "banished." There is no evidence for this assertion. No longer practiced actively -- yes -- but banished, no.

The author sounds pretty clear on the subject. "However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

There is evidence that Targs after Maegor considered polygamy as an option -- even if not taken.

Both Daemons who considered it, and were told no, had to get ask permission from the King. Rahegar was not King and we have no accounts of Aerys asking his father to allow it. Jaime, Barristan or Pycelle would have known about it.

[Isgrimner]

Since I don't believe that R and L were two lovesick teens who just couldn't bear to be apart anymore, I think something had to have happened that triggered the running away.

Obviously nobody was getting her married to Robert right then (she was 13, so I'm guessing), which would be the only imminent problem (IMO) at that time. So my guesses for the elopement are:

1. Pregnant with Rhaegar's baby?

2. Afraid of Something? (Robert's advances?)

Lyanna was born in 266 or 267 AC, which would make her 14 or 15 years old at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney (281). She died in 283 AC, so she would have been 16 or 17 then.

Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, making him approximately 22 at Harrenhal and approximately 24 at his death in 283 (some time before Lyanna died)

[UnmaskedLurker]

The author sounds pretty clear on the subject. "However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

Both Daemons who considered it, and were told no, had to get ask permission from the King. Rahegar was not King and we have no accounts of Aerys asking his father to allow it. Jaime, Barristan or Pycelle would have known about it.

I believe both of these quotes/situations support my argument and not yours. The statement by GRRM shows that there was NO change in the law after Maegor (which was the original assertion upthread). At the time of Maegor both incest and polygamy were considered wrong by the Faith -- but both happened. After Maegor, incest kept happening but polygamy did not. There is absolutely no suggestion in that GRRM quote or anywhere else that this cessation resulted from a change in the law after Maegor. Rather, the GRRM quote suggests that price became higher for upsetting the lords after the loss of dragons. And note that even before the loss of dragons, polygamy did not happen after Maegor. Targs kept engaging in incest but avoiding polygamy was a concession apparently they were willing to make to keep the lords happy -- not because such a marriage would be "illegal" but because it would upset too many people.

The Daemon examples even prove my point more. If polygamy was outlawed, why even bother to ask? And rather than saying "no" the king would have said it was illegal and consent was not an issue. Rather, the general rule was that all marriages of children of the king went through the king -- not just polygamous marriages but all marriages. So these example prove my point -- polygamy was an option, but in these cases the King turned down the request. The existence of the request in the first place, however, proves my point that polygamy remained a theoretical option.

But what you did not discuss was the marriage of Jaehaerys and Shaera, children of Aegon V. They were clever enough to go with the "ask forgiveness rather than permission" route. They knew they would not get permission to marry -- but went and got married anyway. Aegon V decided to accept the marriage because it had been consummated. This marriage was an incest marriage (brother-sister), but happened without consent of the King -- and was considered a marriage. GRRM included this story in WOIAF for a reason -- to show how a child of the King can go behind the King's back and get married in a way that should have required permission.

There is no case I am aware of in which an "unlawful" marriage was declared not to be a marriage. To the contrary, when Maegor took a second wife, no one asserted he was not married to his second wife. He was given the choice of annulment or exile, and chose exile. But no one -- not the King, not the Faith, no one claimed they could declare the second marriage not to be a marriage. Those rules did not change after Maegor's death. The laws in Westeros do not seem to work like modern-day laws where a second marriage by a bigamist is not recognized as a legal marriage at all. In Westeros, a marriage is a marriage -- even if the act of getting married might subject one of the parties to the marriage to some form of punishment.

So Rhaegar might have risked some form of punishment for marrying Lyanna without permission of the King. Again, I believe that is why they planned to hide until the baby was born. A baby would reduce the risk that Aerys would ask for annulment, and accordingly reduce the risk of punishment for refusing to annul. But there is no evidence in any example in any book in the series (or side books by GRRM) that lead to the conclusion that a polygamous marriage is not recognized as a marriage.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

My guess is because they knew that what they were doing was the most idiotic, selfish, arrogant and borderline evil thing that they could possibly do.

[James Arryn]

As it's almost entirely relayed to us through distorted/disconnected second or third hand recollections, we won't 'know' the answer unless GRRM chooses to make it explicit. But just based on what we do know of the dynamics leading up to the event, it seems most provable to me that Rhaegar's only realistic danger was from the only person above him in the pecking order; the father who already suspected him of betrayal and treason.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

As it's almost entirely relayed to us through distorted/disconnected second or third hand recollections, we won't 'know' the answer unless GRRM chooses to make it explicit. But just based on what we do know of the dynamics leading up to the event, it seems most provable to me that Rhaegar's only realistic danger was from the only person above him in the pecking order; the father who already suspected him of betrayal and treason.

And Brandon who would stab him to death it seems, regardless the consequences.