James Arryn Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 And Brandon who would stab him to death it seems, regardless the consequences.Lol, yeah, but I doubt Rhaegar was too worried about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lol, yeah, but I doubt Rhaegar was too worried about that. I tend to think that if Rhaegar and Lyanna had any realization that Brandon would react as strong as he did, they might have handled the situation a little differently (like having Lyanna somehow get a message to Brandon that she was not really kidnapped). But Rhaegar almost certainly did not feel he needed to hide personally from Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Everyone is avoiding the obvious; one or both of them knew exactly what this would mean and did it anyways. Rhaegar was either mad himself on the level of Ted Bundy, who was so charming he escaped from prison twice and made most people believe he wasn't a murderer at all, or Lyanna did things young people sometimes do and ran off with Rhaegar and wasn't quite as wise as we all want to believe she must have been.Of all the the foolish things characters have done I the series including Cersei, this really takes the cake. It caused the deaths of tens of thousands and I don't see how people can try and say one or both of them wasn't hugely responsible for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Everyone is avoiding the obvious; one or both of them knew exactly what this would mean and did it anyways. Rhaegar was either mad himself on the level of Ted Bundy, who was so charming he escaped from prison twice and made most people believe he wasn't a murderer at all, or Lyanna did things young people sometimes do and ran off with Rhaegar and wasn't quite as wise as we all want to believe she must have been.Of all the the foolish things characters have done I the series including Cersei, this really takes the cake. It caused the deaths of tens of thousands and I don't see how people can try and say one or both of them wasn't hugely responsible for it.I don't think they were the direct cause of the war yeah they did start a spark but would there have been a war if Aerys was a smart sane king? Of if Brandon didn't go into Targ territory threatening the crown prince? Rhaegar's and Lyanna's actions shouldn't have exploded into a war it was Aerys that decided that fate yet they still deserve blame for what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 When Jaehaerys and Shaera ran away, they offended two Great Houses but no Rebellion started. Egg simply had to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Everyone is avoiding the obvious; one or both of them knew exactly what this would mean and did it anyways. Rhaegar was either mad himself on the level of Ted Bundy, who was so charming he escaped from prison twice and made most people believe he wasn't a murderer at all, or Lyanna did things young people sometimes do and ran off with Rhaegar and wasn't quite as wise as we all want to believe she must have been.Of all the the foolish things characters have done I the series including Cersei, this really takes the cake. It caused the deaths of tens of thousands and I don't see how people can try and say one or both of them wasn't hugely responsible for it.You seem to be all over the map on this one. First you suggest that they knew the consequences and did it anyway, and then you suggest they were just naive and foolish and so are responsible. Those are two completely different (and more or less mutually exclusive) arguments. As to the first suggestion, i.e., that one or both of them knew the likely consequences (i.e., war and death of thousands) and ran off together anyway, I discount that possibility entirely. I give it a 0% likelihood. They did not run off, knowing that war would follow and thousands would die, and decide they did not care and were going to run off together in any event. As to whether they were naive and foolish, perhaps they were, I really am not sure. You refer to people thinking Lyanna was "wise" but I cannot recall anyone describing her that way. But more to the point, I will try to give you my point of view on whether they "caused" the death of thousands. I don't think I will convince you at all -- but at least maybe you might understand a little better why so many people do not interpret the situation the way that you do. First, I myself ask whether Rhaegar and Lyanna had the right to go off together. While not entirely clear (they did have familial obligations), on balance I think they did. They were not directly hurting anyone else and they were merely exercising the right of most individuals to travel where they want to go and do what they want to do (as long as they are not coercing or directly harming others). But wasn't it obvious that Westeros would end up at war over this behavior? No, it was not obvious -- and in fact, Westeros did not go to war over this issue. If Brandon had not gone to KL to demand Rhaegar's head, and if Aerys had not demanded the lives of Robert and Ned, war would not have occurred and thousands would not have died. Brandon is responsible for his own actions. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not responsible for Brandon's actions. Aerys is responsible for Aerys's actions. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not responsible for Aerys's actions. Let me try to give you an analogy. Let's assume that an individual acts foolishly by going into North Korea uninvited. Let's assume that the person is captured and the US demands his return. Let's assume that North Korea executes the person, and in retaliation the US declares war on North Korea and thousands die in that war (not that the US would do so, but go with me on this hypothetical). Is the original person who foolishly went into North Korea responsible for those deaths? Some people might believe yes, but I would not agree. War was not an inevitable result of this person's actions, even if it was the first step in the string of events that led to war. And in that case the person almost certainly broke the laws of North Korea. In the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna, they broke no law. So in my view, Rhaegar and Lyanna were within their rights to go off together. They coerced no one (assuming it was not a kidnapping, as I assume) and they caused no direct harm to anyone. The actions of Brandon and Aerys were not reasonably predictable. And more to the point, Brandon and Aerys are responsible for their own actions -- not Rhaegar and Lyanna. Free will makes each individual responsible for his or her own uncoerced actions. So do I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were naive and foolish? Maybe, I am not sure. Do I consider them to be responsible for the war that killed thousands? Absolutely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lyanna was born in 266 or 267 AC, which would make her 14 or 15 years old at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney (281). She died in 283 AC, so she would have been 16 or 17 then. Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, making him approximately 22 at Harrenhal and approximately 24 at his death in 283 (some time before Lyanna died) Lyanna was specified to have been 16 when she died in 283 AC in the books. Whether it was before or after her nameday, is unknown. When Jaehaerys and Shaera ran away, they offended two Great Houses but no Rebellion started. Egg simply had to accept it. Whether a rebellion occurs depends just as much on the reaction of those parties who have been wronged, as on the reaction of the King who is held responsible. Brandon committed high treason (threatening the life of the Crown Prince), so the King stood within his rights to arrest him and put him to trial. What happened next, however, changed the game.. When Jaehaerys and Shaera married, House Tully and House Tyrell did not rebell. But when Duncan did it, Lord Lyonel Baratheon declared himself Storm King.. So it's not always the case that a rebellion can be avoided by the King's side.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lyanna was born in 266 or 267 AC, which would make her 14 or 15 years old at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney (281). She died in 283 AC, so she would have been 16 or 17 then. Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, making him approximately 22 at Harrenhal and approximately 24 at his death in 283 (some time before Lyanna died) Ned said she died at 16. While the Tourney of Harenhall happened in 281 it must have been very early in the year as there was enough time for Rhaegar to go back to Dragonstone, return, kidnap Lyanna, Brandon(at Riverrun) to find out and go to Kings Landing, Rickard to find out his son had been imprisoned and travel to Kings Landing from Winterfell, be executed, Aerys sends warrants for the heads of Robert and Ned, Jon Arryn to reject it and finally for War to begin all in the same year. We can also guess that Roberts Rebellion must have ended quite late in 283 as the marriage between Robert and Cersei, took place in 284. Lyanna was most likely 13 at the Tourney of Harrenhal I believe both of these quotes/situations support my argument and not yours. The statement by GRRM shows that there was NO change in the law after Maegor It was never allowed to begin with. That is what GRRM says, there was never a law saying polygamy was legal, even in the time of Maegor. That is why we have no other instance of anyone else in Westeros taking up more than one wife. It was never legal, but like GRRM says, if you have dragons then the Faith has to lump it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It was never allowed to begin with. That is what GRRM says, there was never a law saying polygamy was legal, even in the time of Maegor. That is why we have no other instance of anyone else in Westeros taking up more than one wife. It was never legal, but like GRRM says, if you have dragons then the Faith has to lump it. Incest was never allowed either -- but it kept happening even after dragons were gone. The original war with the faith militant was over incest and not polygamy. Polygamy was never illegal. Incest was never illegal. They may have been against the "Faith" but the Faith do not make the laws of Westeros. GRRM never refers to polygamy being legal or illegal. He refers to the approval of the lords and the faith. The views of the ruling class make it a problem. The majority religion makes it a problem. But GRRM says nothing about the law making it a problem. In fact, he choose to use the word "convention" which is completely different than law. If GRRM meant to say that you can defy the law when you have dragons, I think he would have said that. But instead, he said you can defy "convention" (i.e., customs and traditions) more easily when you have dragons. And again -- he does not say it become impossible without dragons -- just harder. The actual words of the SSM simply are not what you suggest they are. In fact, they are the complete opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Incest was never allowed either -- but it kept happening even after dragons were gone. The original war with the faith militant was over incest and not polygamy. Polygamy was never illegal. Incest was never illegal. They are both seen as illegal in the eyes of the Faith, but a KING can sanction them. In the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna we know that Aerys did not give them permission. If either was legal we would see other people commit polygamy and incest, we have no examples of 300 years of anyone doing these acts other than marriages allowed by the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Well, the Robert-Lyanna bethrothal was made years before harrenhall, he could provoke a reaction equal to that of Lyonel Baratheon, the guy people said Robert was basically a reincarnation of... but it´s also true that bob wasn´t the cemented leader of the stormlands like lyonel at that time, so he could ask his father aerys to intervene but he was already married with 2 heirs... Rhaegar was the crown prince, he had a lot of ways to break the lyanna-robert tie, it would lead to unecessary arguments but... a duel was out of the question, because he would die 10 times out of 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Ned said she died at 16. While the Tourney of Harenhall happened in 281 it must have been very early in the year as there was enough time for Rhaegar to go back to Dragonstone, return, kidnap Lyanna, Brandon(at Riverrun) to find out and go to Kings Landing, Rickard to find out his son had been imprisoned and travel to Kings Landing from Winterfell, be executed, Aerys sends warrants for the heads of Robert and Ned, Jon Arryn to reject it and finally for War to begin all in the same year. We can also guess that Roberts Rebellion must have ended quite late in 283 as the marriage between Robert and Cersei, took place in 284. The Tourney at Harrenhal occured in 281 AC, but the Rebellion did not start until 282 AC. The tourney took place most likely somewhere around the middle of the year... Perhaps a month later. It seems that Elia wasn't visibly pregnant yet with Aegon, yet the false spring only lasted for two months, and then winter returned. Lyanna most likely disappeared somewhere around the middle of 282 AC as well... Brandon had to duel LF, which occured at least multiple months into the year (based on his nameday occurence), and then had to travel north, to meet up with Rickard. It would be only on the way back to Riverrun that they learnt that something had happened. The actual rebellion, started even later, but most likely, not by much. First, Brandon travelled to KL, then Rickard was summoned (a journey he most likely made from Riverrun). Rickard arrived, the trial happened, and Jon Arryn was ordered to send the heads.. And Jon's refusal is the official start of the Rebellion. Which lasted about a year (slightly more than 12 months, it seems), ending rather late in 283 AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 They are both seen as illegal in the eyes of the Faith, but a KING can sanction them. In the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna we know that Aerys did not give them permission. If either was legal we would see other people commit polygamy and incest, we have no examples of 300 years of anyone doing these acts other than marriages allowed by the King. You are not correct. I believe that was the point of the Jaehaerys/Shaera story in WOIAF is all about. They did NOT have permission of the King to get married. Aegon V did not really like incest. But his son and daughter ran off and got married without permission and revealed the marriage only after consummation. The King did not have the power to undo the marriage. He had the power to punish them for the marriage. But they still would be married. He chose to accept the marriage. That was the risk that Rhaegar and Lyanna were taking. They knew that getting married without the permission of Aerys was a risk (even if it was a non-polygamous marriage, Aerys could have punished for a royal prince getting married without his consent). My theory is that Rhaegar believed that coming back with a baby would lessen the likelihood that Aerys would choose to act against Rhaegar regarding the marriage. Rhaegar also might have had a back-up plan in which Rhaegar might have thought he could call a GC and become king himself and thereby have the power to approve his own marriage. He certainly suggested to Jaime that something would be done after the war to deal with the madness of King Aerys. But the marriage "illegal" in the sense that it would not be recognized as a marriage. And the views of the Faith do not seem to be particularly relevant to this issue. What matters is whether the King will choose to take action. We know that Rhaegar thought he could take some action against Aerys. It is not that hard to believe that he thought he could get away with a polygamous marriage -- especially given that Elia could have no more children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You are not correct. I believe that was the point of the Jaehaerys/Shaera story in WOIAF is all about. They did NOT have permission of the King to get married. The King gave his permission. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it They still needed the Kings permission. Rhaegar never got the Kings permission, so any sham marriage that took place is not legal in the eyes of the law as well as being an abomination in the eyes of the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The King gave his permission. They still needed the Kings permission. Rhaegar never got the Kings permission, so any sham marriage that took place is not legal in the eyes of the law as well as being an abomination in the eyes of the Faith. It is not really that they needed the king's permission. They got married without it, and there is no indication that the king could undo the marriage. The king merely needed to decide not to take action against them for getting married. In that sense he gave permission after the fact. But the permission was really just in a very passive form in that no action was taken against them for getting married without his permission. And the only one with the power to take any action was the King (not the Faith and not the Lords). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It is not really that they needed the king's permission. They got married without it, and there is no indication that the king could undo the marriage. Of course there is. It was not a case of Aegon had to like it or lump it, but that he chose to accept it. From the wording it seems he could have had it declared void. They needed the Kings permission, it is pretty clear, Rhaegar is not a King, he needs his fathers permision to commit polygamy just like Daemon Targaryen needed Viserys permission and Daemon Blackfyre needed Daerons II permission.Incidentally both refused. Both the history and the author make it abundantly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 "...felt he had no choice but to accept it." Doesn't sound like Aegon could have declared it void.Just as Aenys I was clearly against Maegors second marriage, yet could not make it undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyshaLives Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 I just wonder why R and L didn't at least try to get married peacefully first. They could have at least informed their families about their love.And I kind of have my own theories to that question. Lyanna couldn't tell because the Starks are very very very honorable and they don't break betrothals.Rhaegar couldn't tell because Aerys would see it as an alliance marriage between the North and the Crown Prince to overthrow him (since he already felt Winterfell, the Vale, Storm's End, Riverrun were plotting something and Aerys was estranged from Casterly Rock) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyshaLives Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 And I guess they couldn't wait because maybe Lyanna and Robert's wedding was on the cards very soon since she was 14-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rhaegar couldn't tell because Aerys would see it as an alliance marriage between the North and the Crown Prince to overthrow him (since he already felt Winterfell, the Vale, Storm's End, Riverrun were plotting something and Aerys was estranged from Casterly Rock)Where is that specifically stated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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