Is Timett the son of Timett the heir to the Vale of Arryn?

[Modesty Lannister]

Here is the passage from AFFC in which Petyr Baelish explains to Sansa Stark why Harry the Heir is the heir of the Vale in case Robyn Arryn dies:

“Jon Arryn had gotten himself a young wife during the war, one he had reason to believe fertile. He was very hopeful, I’m sure, but you and I know that all he ever got from Lysa were stillbirths, miscarriages, and poor Sweetrobin.

Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy. The third wed the Lord of the Paps, but proved barren. The fourth was on her way to the riverlands to marry some Bracken when Burned Men carried her off. That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished.” He turned her hand over and lightly kissed her wrist. “So tell me, sweetling—why is Harry the Heir?”

Her eyes widened. “He is not Lady Waynwood’s heir. He’s Robert’s heir. If Robert were to die...”

Petyr arched an eyebrow. “When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie.”

Sansa, AFFC

So, the fourth surviving daughter of Jon Arryn’s sister Alys and current lady Waynwood’s uncle Ser Elys was carried off by the Burned Men. She was of noble birth, so it stands to reason she would not have been killed. There are two possibilities for her subsequent fate:

1. A ransom would be asked from her family

2. She would be claimed by one of the Burned Men as a wife or a mistress.

The latter scenario is more likely since no one heard from her ever since. But, she was a lady and it is likely that she would be claimed by the chief of the clan. And that chief is most likely Timett’s father Timett.

That would make Timett the son of Timett not only a future leader of the Burned Men, but the heir to the Vale of Arryn.

But, why would anyone care for an illegal offspring such as Timett the son of Timett? TWOIAF offers an idea:

Amongst the Burned Men, a youth must give some part of his body to the fire to prove his courage before he can be deemed a man. This practice might have originated in the years after the Dance of the Dragons, some maesters believe, when an offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs were said to have worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of the dragon she commanded to prove their manhood.

This fire-witch can only be Nettles and the dragon Sheepstealer.

From The Princess and the Queen we know that the affair between Daemon Targaryen and Nettles ended:

“How the prince and his bastard girl spent their last night beneath Lord Mooton’s roof is not recorded, but as dawn broke they appeared together in the yard, and Prince Daemon helped Nettles saddle Sheepstealer one last time. It was her custom to feed him each day before she flew; dragons bend easier to their rider’s will when full. That morning she fed him a black ram, the largest in all Maidenpool, slitting the ram’s throat herself. Her riding leathers were stained with blood when she mounted her dragon, Maester Norren records, and “her cheeks were stained with tears.” No word of farewell was spoken betwixt man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower. High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle.”

Which does not mean she was not seen in the mountains of the Vale. Judging from the heartbreaking farewell between her and prince Daemon, one can speculate she may have been with child at the time of their parting. Else, she may have died together with Daemon in his final battle or even managed to win it. But it was obvious that prince Daemon was not willing to risk her heath.

So, she hid in the mountains of the Vale. The Burned Men obviously provided her and her dragon with food. Since they “worshiped” her, it does not seem likely that she would have taken any of them for husband.

But, in any case, we have three possible scenarios:

1. Nettles had a child by Daemon

2. Nettles took a husband from the Burned Men clan and had children with him

3. Nettles lived her days without a man

Since Nettles does not strike me as a celibate type, but an earthly one, I find the third scenario highly unlikely.

So, if she had a child regardless of who their father was, that child was set to become the leader of the Burned Men.

The custom of burning parts of one’s body to prove one’s manhood may have derived from numerous attempts by members of the clan and potential offspring of Nettles to tame Sheepstealer after Nettles died since we know dragons live much longer than humans.

So, today, we have potentially a descendent or descendents of Nettles living in the Vale. Some of them may even be descendents of Prince Daemon. All of them potentially have dragonriding abilities. Also, Sheepstealer had planty of time to lay eggs in the Vale since Craxes seemed as heartbroken by Sheepstealer’s departure as Prince Deamon was with that of Nettles.

Why do I think Timett the son of Timett is a good candidate for such a descendent?

Every clan in the Mountains of the Moon feared the Burned Men, who mortified their flesh with fire to prove their courage and (the others said) roasted babies at their feasts. And even the other Burned Men feared Timett, who had put out his own left eye with a white-hot knife when he reached the age of manhood. Tyrion gathered that it was more customary for a boy to burn off a nipple, a finger, or (if he was truly brave, or truly mad) an ear. Timett’s fellow Burned Men were so awed by his choice of an eye that they promptly named him a red hand, which seemed to be some sort of a war chief.

“I wonder what their king burned off,” Tyrion said to Bronn when he heard the tale. Grinning, the sellsword had tugged at his crotch... but even Bronn kept a respectful tongue around Timett. If a man was mad enough to put out his own eye, he was unlikely to be gentle to his enemies.

Tyrion, AGOT

“Your man Timett slew a wineseller’s son this evening, at a gambling den on the Street of Silver. He accused him of cheating at tiles.”

“Was it true?”
“Oh, beyond a doubt.”
“Then the honest men of the city owe Timett a debt of gratitude. I shall see that he has the king’s thanks.”

Tyrion, ACOK

The chill in the long dank vault went bone deep. Timett had chosen to retreat back up to the cellar after a brief taste of the cold below. They were somewhere under the hill of Rhaenys, behind the Guildhall of the Alchemists. The damp stone walls were splotchy with nitre, and the only light came from the sealed ironand-glass oil lamp that Hallyne the Pyromancer carried so gingerly.

Tyrion, ACOK

Tyrion found Timett dicing with his Burned Men in the barracks. “Come to my solar at midnight.” Timett gave him a hard one-eyed stare, a curt nod. He was not one for long speeches.

Tyrion, ACOK

So, our man Timett is so fearless even Bronn fears him, he likes to gamble and he dislikes cold although he lived all his life in the Mountains of the Moon. All these traits resemble Daemon Targaryen who was not called the Prince of Fleebottom for nothing.

I am not going to speculate on one eye Timett has and his very choice to take it out, which may lead us to Bloodraven, but it is also a thought to be entertained.

Arya and the Hound learn that

The Burned Men are fearless since Timett One-Eye came back from the war.

Arya, ASOS

So, if Daenerys lands in the Vale, she may find that there is a dragonrider there and perhaps some dragon eggs as well. And when riding a dragon, the status of a bastard doesn’t mean much anymore. So, Timett may rule the Vale yet.

ETA: Just wanted to add that the lady abducted by the Burned men was on her way to wed a Bracken when taken. Given the ancient and still ongoing feud between Brackens and Blackwoods, it may have not been coincidental. The Bracken connection reinforces my belief that Bloodraven may be involved in the whole thing. That would make Timett's choice to take his eye out with a hot knife a further sign that his actions may be manipulated by the Bloodraven as were actions of his predecessors.

[Mladen]

Even if he is who you claim he is, most likely they haven't been married so he is bastard in Westerosi eye. And if Dany starts putting clansmen at the head of entire regions, she will end like her dad.

[Pod The Impaler]

I like this theory - Nettles ! ^_^

I have long thought that the Burned Men are going to have some role to play in the Vale, and perhaps with Sansa's tale. An Arryn - possibly the last real one - got carried off years ago? Plot hook. They have real steel now, given to them by the Halfman? Plot hook. The Halfman's wife is in the Vale? Plot hook. (Plus, after all, if the Burned men are impressed by dangerous men kissed by fire, what would they think of The Hound ?)

[Modesty Lannister]

I like this theory - Nettles ! ^_^

I have long thought that the Burned Men are going to have some role to play in the Vale, and perhaps with Sansa's tale. An Arryn - possibly the last real one - got carried off years ago? Plot hook. They have real steel now, given to them by the Halfman? Plot hook. The Halfman's wife is in the Vale? Plot hook. (Plus, after all, if the Burned men are impressed by dangerous men kissed by fire, what would they think of The Hound ?)

And I forgot to mention that Timett knows Sansa very well. Thanks for reminding me of that!

[Lee-Sensei]

^^There are several Arryns left.

[Modesty Lannister]

Even if he is who you claim he is, most likely they haven't been married so he is bastard in Westerosi eye. And if Dany starts putting clansmen at the head of entire regions, she will end like her dad.

Clans in the Vale are descendants of the First Men who refused to coexist with the Andals. Therefore, they follow the Old Gods. This means their marriages should be performed in front of weirwood trees or, as wildlings, they may count stealing a woman being enough. And the fourth daughter of Alys and Elys was abducted. And, as I said, when you ride a dragon, no one is going to ask you if you are a bastard. Dragonflame is answer enough. Plus, do not forget Aerys did not have dragons.

[Mladen]

Clans in the Vale are descendants of the First Men who refused to coexist with the Andals. Therefore, they follow the Old Gods. This means their marriages should be performed in front of weirwood trees or, as wildlings, they may count stealing a woman enough. And the fourth daughter of Alys and Elys was abducted. And, as I said, when you ride a dragon, no one is going to ask you if you are a bastard. Dragonflame is answer enough. Plus, do not forget Aerys did not have dragons.

First, clansmen are not that isolated, and the rumors of dragon would undeniably reach someone. At the end, they would have used it at some point. So, I am not that convinced that he can be Nettles' descendant. I believe that the more solid case is in "just Arryn heir" or having some Arryn blood.

[Modesty Lannister]

First, clansmen are not that isolated, and the rumors of dragon would undeniably reach someone. At the end, they would have used it at some point. So, I am not that convinced that he can be Nettles' descendant. I believe that the more solid case is in "just Arryn heir" or having some Arryn blood.

They did reach someone, because the masters recorded the rumours as is quoted in OP and as is written in TWOIAF.

[Cladinator]

I doubt it but it would be pretty sweet. Timmet is a badass.

[Modesty Lannister]

I doubt it but it would be pretty sweet. Timmet is a badass.

Imagine a fight between Timett and Euron. That would be an epic one-eyed clash. Btw, there is a reason why GRRM keeps bringing Timett back. He is lingering in the background like Chekov's gun, but he is bound to have a role in the end. Otherwise, there would be no point in keeping him in the story or introducing Arya and the Hound with the news of him.

[Mladen]

They did reach someone, because the masters recorded the rumours as is quoted in OP and as is written in TWOIAF.

I meant much later... I am kinda tantalized by all of this, TBH. I am not sure that we will have more dragons, or riders. But, I definitely agree that clansmen will have a role... Not perhaps this one, but a role nonetheless.

[Modesty Lannister]

I meant much later... I am kinda tantalized by all of this, TBH. I am not sure that we will have more dragons, or riders. But, I definitely agree that clansmen will have a role... Not perhaps this one, but a role nonetheless.

I never said there may be more dragons, just that Timett may be one of dragonriders for Daenerys. And that there may be more dragon eggs in the Vale.

[Bryanfury]

So, the fourth surviving daughter of Jon Arryn’s sister Alys and current lady Waynwood’s uncle Ser Elys was carried off by the Burned Men. She was of noble birth, so it stands to reason she would not have been killed.

Is there a precedent for the clans of the Vale to actively ransom the women they steal?

There are two possibilities for her subsequent fate:

1. A ransom would be asked from her family

2. She would be claimed by one of the Burned Men as a wife or a mistress.

Actually, there's plenty of possibilities for her subsequent fate:

3. She died while resisting

4. She died shortly after reaching the Burned Men camp

5. She escaped and died in the wilderness

6. She escaped and was chased down and killed

7. She was sold/traded to another clan

..and realistically the list can go on and on, each of these things has as much support intext as the two you proposed. Certainly, her fate is not limited to getting ransomed and being raped/forced into marriage with the chief and falling pregnant.

The latter scenario is more likely since no one heard from her ever since. But, she was a lady and it is likely that she would be claimed by the chief of the clan. And that chief is most likely Timett’s father Timett.

See, yes, this is possible, and yes this scenario is more likely than the ransom scenario. But those two scenarios are not the only two possibilities. They are just two possibilities you came up with and have put forth as the predominant possibilities.

That would make Timett the son of Timett not only a future leader of the Burned Men, but the heir to the Vale of Arryn.

If things went the way you propose, then this would make Timett son of Timett a bastard heir of the Burned Men, and nothing more. But I don't think we can trust that things went the way you propose at all. Simply, we don't know what happened and arbitrarily deciding that she either was ransomed or got pregnant with Timett doesn't mean something else couldn't have happened

[Modesty Lannister]

Is there a precedent for the clans of the Vale to actively ransom the women they steal?

Actually, there's plenty of possibilities for her subsequent fate:

3. She died while resisting

4. She died shortly after reaching the Burned Men camp

5. She escaped and died in the wilderness

6. She escaped and was chased down and killed

7. She was sold/traded to another clan

..and realistically the list can go on and on, each of these things has as much support intext as the two you proposed. Certainly, her fate is not limited to getting ransomed and being raped/forced into marriage with the chief and falling pregnant.

See, yes, this is possible, and yes this scenario is more likely than the ransom scenario. But those two scenarios are not the only two possibilities. They are just two possibilities you came up with and have put forth as the predominant possibilities.

If things went the way you propose, then this would make Timett son of Timett a bastard heir of the Burned Men, and nothing more. But I don't think we can trust that things went the way you propose at all. Simply, we don't know what happened and arbitrarily deciding that she either was ransomed or got pregnant with Timett doesn't mean something else couldn't have happened

A noble woman is a treasure to clans. They don't just go on losing their rare treasures by letting them escape or selling them off. I can respond by asking you to find me an example of clans in the Vale selling captives. Yes, it is probable she died, but not as probable as she being treated as a prize. And of course something else could have happened. A zillion things could have happened, but some scenarios are more likely than others. If things went as I propose, Timett is a bastard son of fourth daughter of Alys and Elys. Harry the Heir is the son of the fifth and youngest daughter as IS mentioned in the quote I provided. If he proved to be a dragon-rider, his bastard status may become irrelevant. GRRM does not put different small clues around a character for no reason. They must add up to something in the end. Will Timett end up as a dragon-rider, somehow claim his Arryn ancestry now that he had a taste of civilisation in King's Landing or something else, only GRRM knows. I just summed up his potential uses and roles from the material the author has provided so far.

[Kissed by Ice and Fire]

I love this theory! So fun. And awesome job tying it all together. Even if it doesn't tie in in the books this way, I am accepting this in my head canon.

[Harry the Hair]

It would be amazing to see a showdown between Harrold and Timett over succession rights to the Vale.

[EvilEye]

Imagine a fight between Timett and Euron. That would be an epic one-eyed clash.

Unless it was with crossbows at 100 paces. Still entertaining, I imagine, but probably not very epic. At least not in the sense you probably intended.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Even if he was an Arryn descendant, he's a bastard. And even if he wasn't a bastard, he'd have to convince the Vale of that. Not going to happen.

Of course he could rule the Vale after conquering it, but that is not what being a heir is about.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Even if he is who you claim he is, most likely they haven't been married so he is bastard in Westerosi eye. And if Dany starts putting clansmen at the head of entire regions, she will end like her dad.

Not only that but wouldn't someone like the son of a barbarian smallfolk wouldn't be considered as, by definition, not a candidate for the High lord chair? I think that it was something like a known wildling became the King.

[Modesty Lannister]

You guys are missing my point. My goal was to show that there is a man in the Vale who may be older cousin to Harry the Heir with a better theoretical claim and a potential dragon rider. Without the latter, the former is irrelevant, because he, as you said yourselves and as I said in the OP, is probably a bastard. But, all these bits are there for a reason. GRRM does not put all these things in just for the sake of it. Timett is mentioned in 4 out of 5 books and he seems like an unimportant character. I tried to point out he may have a very important role to play with potentially interesting consequences. And keep in mind that we do not know who in the Vale will get killed by the end of the books. When you have dragons and ride them, claims are easily realised, especially if you have a drop of right bllod. Robert Baratheon did not have dragons, but had a drop of the right blood and that put him and not Tywin, Jaime or Ned on the Iron Throne.