Arya and Jon being Incest ( Jaehaerys I, Jon and Sansa/ Queen Alysanne )

[WeaselPie]

Say what you will about GRRM, but there is no way he'd include sexual undertones between the child Arya and the teenaged Jon. He was saving that for a 5 year gap and a long absence between them, during which time a great deal would have/did happen.

The affection and a bit of foreshadowing still linger in the earlier books, however. Nothing creepy.

But unless the next two novels span a good number of years, GRRM has abandoned J/A, the same way he abandoned Tyrion/Arya as their third wheel.

(and I still don't think "cousins instead of siblings" would be the ultimate denouement to resolve their tormented passion for each other).

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

That is hilarious. A kiss means nothing romantic at all. But little sister, ah, romance.

I think you are confusing people who think Sansa's 'recollections' are burgeoning young adult sexuality rather than a great romance. And no 'little sister' isn't sexy, unless you are a Targ. :p

[Le Cygne]

No, pretty much the ones dismissing a series long elaborate story as sexuality, when there's Loras right there he could have used for that.

And I think you missed the point we were making.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

No, pretty much the ones dismissing a series long elaborate story as sexuality, when there's Loras right there he could have used for that.

Pretty Loras would be missing the point though wouldn't it? Pretty Loras is a safe prince charming that Sansa is moving away from. That isn't what the Sandor thing is about.

This isn't a SanSan thread!

[Mladen]

1 - You don't take alliances for granted, you secure them. In this scenario, Jon is now outed as a bastard(ish) of Rhaegar and Dany's nephew and supporter. She thus wants him as Warden of the North to secure her rule but some families are bound to grumble, no matter how heroic and half-Starkish Jon is (It's human nature). Give him a Stark bride and agree that children will carry the name Stark and it reinforce his position and legitimacy in the North, which is good for Dany assuming Jon is loyal to her. That's the scenario. If they are at odds, then fuck it, it obviously makes no sense.

That's why I'm saying the match can make sense in some scenarios. We don't know the endgame yet.

2 - People change. People can do things they find distasteful for the greater good. Lyanna started a great political upheaval by refusing to put the greater good above her personal preferences. Perhaps Jon and Arya could instead foster stability and peace by going against their personal preference. Would be a nice way to end the cycle of violence. Though personally I'd expect Sansa would be preferred over Arya in that scenario if still alive.

1 - But, if Dany understands that Starks are ONE political union, what is the point of creating relationships between them. Even, if we argue that some families are going to grumble (and, TBH, I don't see why they would be grumbling) we already have Stark lord in Rickon. In your scenario, Jon/Dany marriage would make sense, because North would be getting a KIng/King consort at Iron Throne. This way, they are getting what people alreadz have

Also, there might be SOME scenario. You just need to think it. The one you suggested is kinda flawed in design.

2 - People do change, but I see no way how this marriage would stabilize North, more than Starks uniting together as siblings.

Having Jon in the North solidify her rule as long as he and his descendent are firmly in power. But Jon outed as a bastard of Rhaegar and not Ned weakens his legitimacy a lot in the eyes of many. Jon having a Stark bride solidify his rule and more importantkly that of any of his children who can then carry the name Stark on solid ground. It's one thing to have ally in power, you want them firmly in control, not fighting legitimacy issues.

Her rule wouldn't be needing to solidify if Jon becomes her consort for example. And plus, if she saves North, most of the North wouldn't forget that... She already has a half-Stark-half-Targ. Your scenario's conclusion is that the best marriage would be actually Jon/Dany.

I think you are confusing people who think Sansa's 'recollections' are burgeoning young adult sexuality rather than a great romance. And no 'little sister' isn't sexy, unless you are a Targ. :P

LOL... Again, missing the point. The thing is not that ALL Targs in history were in love with their sisters (and just to be clear, they didn't). From Aerys to Egg, we know that there were those who weren't in love with their sisters. So, bad case...

This isn't a SanSan thread!

True... :agree: . We should stop debating that, you know.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Not all Targs sexually wanted their sisters or other incestuous family members.

Aegon I wanted his younger sister

Baelor had his 3 sisters confined to 'avoid temptation'

Jaeherys II ran away with his sister so they could get married against their father's wishes

Jaeherys I seemed to love Alysanne and they had loads of kids.

Rhaenyra and Daemon married obscenely quickly after the deaths of their spouses and it was unarranged

Any more?

Like the madness and reptile babies, its more than one would consider normal at least.

[Le Cygne]

The author has Jon Snow call Arya Stark "little sister" and Arya Stark remember Jon Snow remembering he called her "little sister" over and over and over again.

These are the characters we are talking about.

"Little sister" is not typically a romantic reference (unlike "kiss"). So for him to use it that often, it would have to be meaningful for these two characters.

[ARYa_Nym]

All that aside, Alysanne doesn't map neatly on to any of the current ASOIAF female characters. She's closest to Margaery, and she has Dany's reformist tendencies, but even then there are discrepancies.

Agreed.

Anyways, I don't think Gendry was substituted for Jon as per the original romance story. Jon and Arya's story was supposed to last the whole series and be a huge dilemma they dealt with throughout the series.

I checked and Arya only brings up Gendry twice in AFFC and this is notably before her chapters start to be titled with different identities. Meanwhile, Jon is still very much relevant. She says in ADWD that everyone else was dead to her except for Jon. Gendry's relevance to her story has gotten less and less. If he was building up some great romance I don't see why he'd make Gendry irrelevant to her storyline. Besides, I don't think him knowing her before counts for much when she is so different as Mercy. I think that song that is used as foreshadowing for the romance actually implied the opposite. The man and the woman wanted different things in the song. The song did not say they reached the same page.

ETA: Plus, Jon and Arya's feelings for each other still bring in conflict. Jon's actions in ADWD and Arya's burying Needle has a lot to do with Jon. Needle was Jon Snow's smile which links back to Aemon talking about a brother's smile in his love speech. This will come up again when she goes to retrieve it.

There is no huge dilemma with Gendry. She's gone a long period without thinking about him and it's likely to be Jon not Gendry that is the trigger for her because of Needle.

[Mladen]

Not all Targs sexually wanted their sisters or other incestuous family members.

Aegon I wanted his younger sister

Baelor had his 3 sisters confined to 'avoid temptation'

Jaeherys II ran away with his sister so they could get married against their father's wishes

Jaeherys I seemed to love Alysanne and they had loads of kids.

Rhaenyra and Daemon married obscenely quickly after the deaths of their spouses and it was unarranged

Any more?

Like the madness and reptile babies, its more than one would consider normal at least.

So, basically what you are arguing is:

"Jon, you are son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, You are Targaryen."

"Really, I am. You are not joking?"

"Nope"

"OK, then. Where is my little sister? I need to screw her because that is what I do now..."

You argue that the revelation of Jon's parentage will suddenly change all that he feels. It won't.

[Le Cygne]

That's right. Because we are talking about Jon as he has been characterized throughout the story.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think you are confusing people who think Sansa's 'recollections' are burgeoning young adult sexuality rather than a great romance. And no 'little sister' isn't sexy, unless you are a Targ. :P

At the same time at one point Jon says was she ever my sister and Arya said once that Jon would have to stop calling her his little sister. I wonder why those who love to say Jon and Sansa don't see each other as siblings the way Jon/Arya do ignore those lines. I don't see either happening but I don't think the justification for one being less like siblings than the others rings true.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The author has Jon Snow call Arya Stark "little sister" and Arya Stark remember Jon Snow remembering he called her "little sister" over and over and over again.

These are the characters we are talking about.

They are not brother and sister. Jon also repeats that he has no sister several times in A Dance with Dragons even though he doesn't know it.

Jon apparently was the only one who wasn't her dad to tell her she was pretty. Jon is the guy who twice thought about the woman he would have sex withs' body in the context of how she measured up to his sis. Jon Snow is a weirdo Targ. I don't like it. You don't like it. Its not good to bury our heads in the sand.

So, basically what you are arguing is:

"Jon, you are son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, You are Targaryen."

"Really, I am. You are not joking?"

"Nope"

"OK, then. Where is my little sister? I need to screw her because that is what I do now..."

You argue that the revelation of Jon's parentage will suddenly change all that he feels. It won't.

No it wont, he's still going to have a deeply unsettling relationship to his sister both before and after.

At the same time at one point Jon says was she ever my sister and Arya said once that Jon would have to stop calling her his little sister. I wonder why those who love to say Jon and Sansa don't see each other as siblings the way Jon/Arya do ignore those lines. I don't see either happening but I don't think the justification for one being less like siblings than the others rings true.

'What do you know of my heart priestess, what do you know of my sister'

George was piling it on there. Couldn't he have put it in a less romantic way? The Rhaegar - like harp player coming out there in Jon.

[Mal Malenkirk]

1 - But, if Dany understands that Starks are ONE political union, what is the point of creating relationships between them. Even, if we argue that some families are going to grumble (and, TBH, I don't see why they would be grumbling) we already have Stark lord in Rickon. In your scenario, Jon/Dany marriage would make sense, because North would be getting a KIng/King consort at Iron Throne. This way, they are getting what people alreadz have

Also, there might be SOME scenario. You just need to think it. The one you suggested is kinda flawed in design.

2 - People do change, but I see no way how this marriage would stabilize North, more than Starks uniting together as siblings.

Her rule wouldn't be needing to solidify if Jon becomes her consort for example. And plus, if she saves North, most of the North wouldn't forget that... She already has a half-Stark-half-Targ. Your scenario's conclusion is that the best marriage would be actually Jon/Dany.

You seem to be under the impression that Westeros is a meritocracy where you get the respect you deserve based on your actions. That's not what I observed.

In my 'Dany victorious' scenario, I don't assume she has a good PR as a result. She'd still be a foreign invader who brought foreign troops and I don't for a minute assume her dragons won't have caused collateral damage and that the Dothraki would have magically turned into the least rapey of invading forces. There is gonna be bad blood when the fighting is over. And if Jon becomes tied to her and loses his percveived blood connection to Ned, it's gonna rub off on him no matter how heroically he behaved.

The name Stark is prestigious in the North. If Jon becomes warden, he needs, and much more importantly his children needs to carry the name Stark with as strong a claim to it as possible in order to secure their rule. It's really for his heirs much more than for himself that he would in this scenario be advised to marry a Stark woman. That way their kids carry as much Stark blood as Robb did, albeit in unorthodox fashion.

After that, Jon's children would be used to create bridge and mends wounds by marrying them left and right in the North. He himself cannot do it because if Jon marries into one important family, he just pisses others. Instead if he has four or five kids who can legitimately be called Starks he could bethrothe them to all of the main families and that's better.

[Le Cygne]

The point is, they see each other as brother and sister.

Hence, the author having them say it over and over and over again.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The point is, they see each other as brother and sister.

Hence, the author having them say it over and over and over again.

Why are we constantly reminded of something that is not true if not to make a revelation more powerful?

[Le Cygne]

It's not just that they say little sister - they actually think of each other that way.

If they suddenly find out they are not brother and sister, suddenly they feel differently?

That's quite a leap.

[MoIaF]

It's not just that they say little sister - they actually think of each other that way.If they suddenly find out they are not brother and sister, suddenly they feel differently?That's quite a leap.

Agree

It reinforces to me that even if biologically they aren't siblings they will always see each other in that way. It's kind of the relationship of adopted children and their parents. Just because they are adopted doesn't mean their adopted parents aren't their parents.

[WeaselPie]

The point is, they see each other as brother and sister.

Hence, the author having them say it over and over and over again.

Again, GRRM obviously had different plans after the gap.

[Le Cygne]

He hinted at things with Arya and Gendry in books 2 and 3, which was before the gap. She noticed his muscles. There was the Acorn Hall story. The Peach. And more. Nothing like this for Jon.

Also, from the outline: "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy."

[Mladen]

Again, GRRM obviously had different plans after the gap.

"Had" is the operative word here. Past tense.