Arya and Jon being Incest ( Jaehaerys I, Jon and Sansa/ Queen Alysanne )

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

It's not just that they say little sister - they actually think of each other that way.

If they suddenly find out they are not brother and sister, suddenly they feel differently?

That's quite a leap.

'She wondered if he would call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else'

Not so little, not so much his sister, what is he going to call her?

I'm saying that Jon has an image of his sister from the day he left Winterfell, much the same as Robb with snowflakes melting in his hair. It is suspended in time. He knows this, she knows this. Both wonder if they would even recognise her if they met again. We are seeing something of an estrangement between them caused by time. The Arya he meets again will be very different to the Arya he left and I don't think he will see her until AFTER he knows she is not his little sister.

[Mladen]

'She wondered if he would call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else'

Not so little, not so much his sister, what is he going to call her?

My money is on "Arya" ;)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

My money is on "Arya" ;)

Not so much a cute endearment though is it?

[AllOfTheHours]

Jon/Arya were clearly going to be A Thing in the outline, there's no denying that Jon and Arya's relationship is extremely important to both of them in the current series, Arya seems to have been deaged from the original outline, and GRRM mentioned when discussing his reasons for scrapping the five year time jump that the world wouldn't wait for Arya to hit puberty. I really don't get all the pearl-clutching about how GRRM would nevah write a romantic Jon/Arya relationship, especially in this series where the ruling family--of which Jon is a member--has a tradition of incest, and where even the Starks have cousin/cousin and even uncle/niece marriages in their history. And since the rules of modern genetics don't apply to the Targs, as they're not hideously deformed and sickly after all their inbreeding, I don't know why we expect modern psychological insights into the dynamics of sibling relationships would apply either, particularly since the history of Targs is peppered with romances between sibling Targs who were raised as siblings. It's pretty silly, IMO. GRRM would go there. He announced his intention to go there in his outline. Get over it.

^^ This. We can't see what GRRM will do exactly, but we know what he has planned to do/is OK with doing. Starkcest doesn't bother him and the fact it bothers so many people in his audience makes him more likely to do it IMO. He loves to make his readers squirm and challenge what we are willing to accept from his characters. Jamie, Tyrion, and Arya have all gone back and forth between light and dark. If having incest-y feelings for Arya was part of GRRM's original plan to torment Jon's character, it's possible a version of that idea will still come to pass.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'd honestly see the Tyrion infatuation part still being an option before the Jon/Arya romance one. He seems to have strategically kept Arya and Tyrion away from each other so far. Every other Stark has interacted with him. I think she is very likely to meet him in Essos. He's not above being attracted to young girls. But she's not similar to Tysha although she could clearly pretend to be. Still, initially Tyrion was capable of loving Arya who although she might not have been initially so murderous (how would Tyrion know unless he saw her do it?) she still fought with Needle. I didn't see that one coming but clearly GRRM saw how it could happen. Also, I don't think it was transferred onto Sansa. Those who proposed that did not remember that he called her false in ADWD along with Shae who he murdered. I think he actually dislikes Sansa. Love is out of the question. But I still think it was likely scrapped. It should still be an intriguing meet up though when they finally do interact.

ETA: Although technically young in ACoK Sandor said she started to look like a woman while Arya still does not. So Tyrion being attracted to one is a different type of attraction and he might not want to portray Tyrion like

Bobono

I don't think he has a problem with her doing things too young but I'm skeptical if he'd have one of his major characters engage in those things with her because it can potentially compromise how sympathetic they are. As opposed to Dany and Sansa it would be pedo ish as long as she still hasn't flowered and still looks child like. It was supposed to be unrequited but still having an attraction to a prepubescent child is harder to justify.

[AllOfTheHours]

I'd honestly see the Tyrion infatuation part still being an option before the Jon/Arya romance one. He seems to have strategically kept Arya and Tyrion away from each other so far. Every other Stark has interacted with him. I think she is very likely to meet him in Essos. He's not above being attracted to young girls. But she's not similar to Tysha although she could clearly pretend to be. Still, initially Tyrion was capable of loving Arya who although she might not have been initially so murderous (how would Tyrion know unless he saw her do it?) she still fought with Needle. I didn't see that one coming but clearly GRRM saw how it could happen. Also, I don't think it was transferred onto Sansa. Those who proposed that did not remember that he called her false in ADWD along with Shae who he murdered. I think he actually dislikes Sansa. Love is out of the question. But I still think it was likely scrapped.

Hm, interesting. Well, anything is possible! As far as Tyrion’s feelings for Sansa, I think they are a little more vague and flexible. He calls her false, but when he reflects on what he misses most about Westeros he thinks, "Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew." He could be describing Tysha in the last part, however grammatically it would make more sense if he was talking about someone new. Since each new person on the list is separated by a period. But regardless, he misses Jamie and Shae even though they were false to him. So although he doesn’t love Sansa, if GRRM still wants a Tyrion/Stark Girl infatuation, Tyrion and Sansa already have a relationship that can be built on once he knows the truth.

[Le Cygne]

Except he's been missing Tysha and calling her his wife.

[ARYa_Nym]

Hm, interesting, Well, anything is possible! As far as Tyrion’s feelings for Sansa, I think they are a little more vague and flexible. He calls her false, but when he reflects on what he misses most about Westeros he thinks, "Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew." He could be describing Tysha in the last part, however grammatically it would make more sense if he was talking about someone new. Since each new person on the list is separated by a period. But regardless, he misses Jamie and Shae even though they were false to him. So although he doesn’t love Sansa, if GRRM still wants a Tyrion/Stark Girl infatuation, Tyrion and Sansa already have a relationship that can be built on once he knows the truth.

I think he is clearly talking about Tysha. He was whining about her the entire book. Tysha does makes sense because they had very little time together. Tywin acted quickly.

I think Tyrion's dislike started before that. He thought of her as cold. He was attracted to her yes but that's not synonymous with having actual feelings for her.

[Le Cygne]

So many things changed so dramatically from the outline.

Dany's relationships with Drogo and Viserys, for example. This was completely different, she was fine with Drogo killing Viserys. He was no dragon. She was devastated when Drogo died. She loves him still.

Jaime's story is different (he's not even in the outline, that's Cersei). He was given a Beauty and the Beast story, with Brienne. Sansa's story is different, too. She was given a Beauty and the Beast story, with Sandor.

And much more.

In the story now, the character motivation is Jon and Arya are close, so when the conflict arises, he wants to rescue her at any cost. Alys reminds Jon of Arya, too. Arya has to matter to Jon, for him to risk everything. And what happens as a result sets up the rest of the story.

Also, just looking up some of those quotes, the context is often Lyanna.

Jon sees Arya the same way Ned sees Lyanna. Ned says Lyanna, his sister, is pretty, therefore Arya, his daughter, is pretty. Jon says Arya, his sister, is pretty, therefore his mother, Lyanna, is pretty.

Jon thinks Ygritte reminds him of Arya, but the reader knows, because of the way the story is written, she also reminds him of Lyanna, his mother. And Alys reminds him of Arya, too, and there's nothing romantic going on with Alys.

Arya looks like Ned. Arya looks like Lyanna. Arya looks like Jon.

Arya thinks about Jon's mother. Then she thinks, maybe he will call me something other than little sister, since I'm not little anymore. But the reader (who has picked up all of the hints) thinks, because they are cousins.

And so on...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Adding this just for fun, in regards to the "little sister endearment" commentary.

v8 Come with me from Lebanon, my bride.

Come with me from Lebanon.

Come down from the top of Amana mountain,

from the top of Senir, the top of Hermon.

Come from the lions’ cave.

And from where leopards live in the mountains.

v9 I want to love you with all of my heart, my sister.

I want to love you, my bride.

You gave me one look with your eyes,

You showed me one stone of your jewels.

v10 Your love is a delight, my sister, my bride!

Your love is so much better than wine!

Your perfume smells better than any spice.

v11 Your lips are sweet.

They are like honey, my bride.

Honey and milk are under your tongue.

Your clothes have the smell of Lebanon.

v12 My sister, my bride, you are like a garden.

This is a garden that someone has locked.

You are like a place where there is fresh water.

It is a private place.

You are like a fountain that someone has closed.

Verses from "The Song of Songs"

If it's good enough for Solomon, it's good enough for GRRM :laugh:

[Silverscream]

Jon and Arya think of themselves as siblings because as far as they know, that's what they are. On the other hand, they were meant to fall in love with each other while still thinking they were brother and sister and before R+L=J was revealed. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

Though speaking of the hypocrisy of Jon/Sansa vs. Jon/Arya, it's interesting that Jon tries pretend he doesn't have a sister when it comes to Arya (the words were knives), but has no problem referring to Sansa as his sister with talking to Stannis. Yet the shippers act like Jon and Sansa don't think of themselves as siblings at all and basically have the same type of relationship as Theon and Sansa in order to justify their ship.

[Le Cygne]

Agree

It reinforces to me that even if biologically they aren't siblings they will always see each other in that way. It's kind of the relationship of adopted children and their parents. Just because they are adopted doesn't mean their adopted parents aren't their parents.

Yes, this.

Also, it's about the story the author is telling for them, not anyone else, or some other unrelated story. If one wants to bring another story in, everyone can do that.

Here's one, a classic film I'm sure GRRM has seen, The Searchers. There's a young man, Martin, who risks everything to rescue someone he considers his "little sister," Debbie, who has been kidnapped and forced to marry the man who helped kill her family. He wants to marry Laurie, this has nothing to do with romance, and everything to do with being a brother.

[Newstar]

The sillier thing is inability to actually distinguish differences between discarded outline and well, published material.

How do you know it was discarded? Outline Arya had two men passionately in love with her in the first book planned, suggesting ASOIAF Arya was deaged, and GRRM all but came out and said he wanted the five year gap to ensure that Arya hit puberty.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

In this, I'm actually glad the show will reveal the broad strokes of the endgame long before the books end... because Starkcest is the opposite of the story that GRRM ended up telling for the fandom's favorite family, no matter what his original intentions were.

Not all Targs sexually wanted their sisters or other incestuous family members.

Aegon I wanted his younger sister

Baelor had his 3 sisters confined to 'avoid temptation'

Jaeherys II ran away with his sister so they could get married against their father's wishes

Jaeherys I seemed to love Alysanne and they had loads of kids.

Rhaenyra and Daemon married obscenely quickly after the deaths of their spouses and it was unarranged

Any more?

Like the madness and reptile babies, its more than one would consider normal at least.

Starks aren't Targs...

...well, except in one case.

Yes, it will be very nice if Jon keeps his vows and never hooks up with anyone again.

(Unless it's Dany, because I'll go for an aunt he's never met before I support cousins he grew up thinking were his half-sisters!)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Jon and Arya think of themselves as siblings because as far as they know, that's what they are. On the other hand, they were meant to fall in love with each other while still thinking they were brother and sister and before R+L=J was revealed. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

Though speaking of the hypocrisy of Jon/Sansa vs. Jon/Arya, it's interesting that Jon tries pretend he doesn't have a sister when it comes to Arya (the words were knives), but has no problem referring to Sansa as his sister with talking to Stannis. Yet the shippers act like Jon and Sansa don't think of themselves as siblings at all and basically have the same type of relationship as Theon and Sansa in order to justify their ship.

They do think of each other as siblings but the lack of an affectionate relationship shown when the family was together and rare considerations of each other when apart (not that they don't exist) doesn't make it more likely to happen romanticly. The idea that they mostly ignore each other is a plus point for the future romance is absurd. We know Jon felt marginalised by her, we know Jon and Arya teamed up a bit against her 'Don't Tell Sansa' . Its not a good set up for Jon then choosing to marry her.

The disassociation with Arya is different. As you said 'The words were knives', he got stabbed four times for trying to summon the wall to March on the Boltons for his sister after previously sending Mance and Stannis who the letter says have failed. Jon knows that as a Nights Watchman he has given up his family so he is trying to disassociate from her in his head. He has no sister, she is only his half sister etc... Add this to the distance that is now between them with the experiences they have gone through and physically with time. They suspect they will be like strangers to each other if they meet again. GRRM however keeps the connection going, by comparing Arya to characters like Ygritte, Alys, Val and for Arya with Gendry to show the connection is still present.

Starks aren't Targs...

...well, except in one case.

Yes, it will be very nice if Jon keeps his vows and never hooks up with anyone again.

(Unless it's Dany, because I'll go for an aunt he's never met before I support cousins he grew up thinking were his half-sisters!)

I'd prefer Jon to stay Lord Commander too. His brothers didn't get out of their vows, they dont get a magical resurrection to get out of their vows, why should he?

NOOOOO to Dany. At least his sister-cousins aren't going to bring about abominations of madness and eyeless, heartless monsters.

[Han Snow]

Why debate in this thread and not in the other one that has brief analysis and quotes from the books?

To the OP, I think comparing Arya, Sansa, Jon to other dead kings and queens bears little to no fruit for this particular topic.

EDIT:

The weird thing about all this is that I'm starting to have these notions of defending the legitimacy of the possibility for Jon Arya romance in the last book because the text allows for such a thing to happen! It IS THERE in the published books (seriously, the other thread, quotes and all...)!

[ARYa_Nym]

He hinted at things with Arya and Gendry in books 2 and 3, which was before the gap. She noticed his muscles. There was the Acorn Hall story. The Peach. And more. Nothing like this for Jon.

Also, from the outline: "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy."

I could also make an argument for Jon although I don't believe it.

She showers him with kisses in AGoT-So she actually wanted intimacy with him. At no point does she desire to touch Gendry.

She can touch someone she doesn't like but never desires to touch someone she does?

She blushes and reacts shyly towards Jon-At no point does she have a physical reaction to Gendry that is indicative of a crush.

That's what I meant. It was initially supposed to only be a trilogy and their feelings for each other would be brought up throughout the trilogy. But Arya's feelings for Gendry has not been brought up since AFFC which was only twice and one of those times it was negative. Meanwhile Jon has been mentioned after she became Cat of the Canals unlike Gendry. Gendry is not tormenting her currently. She is not thinking about him and has not for some time now.

I don't see the passion when to me it can't be proven that Arya as of TWoW still has feelings for Gendry.

I also don't think them not being around each other is an excuse. Ygritte still comes up with Jon. Sandor still comes up with Sansa. Gendry gets no thoughts from Arya after she becomes Cat.

[Ser Creighton]

How do you know it was discarded? Outline Arya had two men passionately in love with her in the first book planned, suggesting ASOIAF Arya was deaged, and GRRM all but came out and said he wanted the five year gap to ensure that Arya hit puberty.

Actually he said he wanted the 5 year gap for the dragons and kids to grow. But there is no Gap and she is 11 and has had no feeling for Jon like that. He also clearly made her younger. Also in reguards to the time Gap Arya goes to the wall before that in the treatment. So that gives Martin a hell of a lot of time to change a relationship. Not an 11 or 12 year old showing up in Winds or Dance with Jon and them suddenly being like lets make like the beasts with two backs. It would be a total character change for both of them and what has been established in the actual story.

Yes they love eachother, like Brother and sister, Jon also loves Sansa and Bran and loved Robb, that does not mean the north suddenly becomes the Alabama of Westeros. The resolution for Jon and Arya in the treatment was an older Arya, a 5 year time skip and a resolution in the final book and they are together for most of that. Literally almost the entire original idea had them together or close to eachother for most of the series. It also had Arya with Mance. Well in the actual books Mance was sort of involved with Arya. It is not the same story. It grew in the telling, it was clearly revised, some things added and some things removed.

I can't see how it makes sense given the current story. The treatment is the treatment, this is the actual story and they are not the same, that is like a thin outline that got changed and edited and evolved over 2 decades.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Why debate in this thread and not in the other one that has brief analysis and quotes from the books?

To the OP, I think comparing Arya, Sansa, Jon to other dead kings and queens bears little to no fruit for this topic.

I have no idea. Part 2 of that thread is great but for some reason this one got going.

Arya only had two chapters in ADWD Arya_Nym. So its a bit weird to be saying 'since AFFC'. Being the most recent book and having come out so long ago now I think ADWD is distorting many perceptions of the novel. Events in AFFC are in tandem with events in ADWD, the timeline hasn't moved that much. The Stark kids are pretty much sidelined in those books because they are in their 'apprenticeships', Arya with the Kindly Man, Sansa with Littlefinger and Bran with Bloodraven. What is mostly happening in those books is us seeing what would have happened in the 5 year gap for the elder characters who couldn't sit around and wait for Arya to hit puberty.

[ARYa_Nym]

He did specify that Arya hitting puberty was important. He also said that he had to change the Mercy chapter around too because of it.

George mentioned that he felt really silly about that planned 5 year jump. He imagined it originally going something like Jon sitting on the Wall going “Well, it’s been 5 fairly quiet years since I’ve been Lord Commander. But I’m starting to think that’ll pick up now…” and realized that the adults wouldn’t wait in their plot lines for Arya to hit puberty.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1441