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Azor Ahai and the Sphinx


Waters Gate

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First of all, i must give credit to MITHRAS, who's made a fine thread which provided much of the groundwork of my ideas here, and is a fine thread on it's own. Mithras his thread can be found here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123133-the-unnatural-origins-of-dragons/

This theory will make a parallel to the sphinxes standing before the citadel of Oldtown, the story of Azor Ahai creating lightbringer, and mithras his perceptions of "biological engineering" as hinted too in many parts of the Asoiaf story.

"Once in Oldtown Sam enters the gates of the Citadel which are flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes. They have the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One has a man’s face and the other a woman’s."

The story of Azor ahai is one that comes in 3 parts, and one is often left to wonder what is the significance of the 3 parts. But lets say that what AA was really making was Dragons, and that simmilarly to how Sphinxes are a sum of 3 parts, that dragons are such a sum of 3 parts, being the 3 "parts" that were hinted to in the story and maybe the Oldtown sphinxes.

Tempered in a lions heart.

Ill begin with this one because its otherwise often very difficult to connect this with anything. But take a dragon, and question to yourself, how much lion-ness is there to a dragon, could you see 1/3rd of a dragon's whole as having come from lion parts? Well, a lion has a long tail, it has legs and arms, sharp claws and teeth, and it has some body to it with some bulky chest. And the Oldtown Sphinx has a lot of lion in it.

Tempered in Water

A dragon doesn't exactly have a lot in coman with a fish. Yet, tempered in water seems to hint towards a sea creature. I think i have found a perfect candidate though. He is called Nagga, and he has a snake like appearance like which 1/3rd of the sphinx has too. Nagga has a lot of dragon like feature's. He is hughe and as such could add the added "hughe" part to the equation, he has that reptilian/snakelike feature's which are also part of those Oltown Sphinxes. Nagga could breath fire. In fact, Nagga seems to me like having been some oversized firewyrmn who broke trough to the sea and in fact might have created the iron islands itself by opening up hole's in the seabed. So many of his feature's lend to that of a dragon obviously, the fire, the reptilian skin and reptilian head, the more overal snakelike feature's.

But then what about the wings?

Nissa Nissa?

In a way, i am left to wonder who nissa Nissa exactly is in the equation. however, it seems obviosu to me that whatever species Nissa Nissa is, that it appears there is a good chance that it is of the same species of AA, since AA was her lover.

But it seems obvious what the third ingredient needs. Wings. So what great winged bird could one combine the lion and the sea snake with to beget a dragon?
The great birds from the legends in the Vale seem obvious candidate's. And indeed the birds do lend feature's to the dragon's overal appearance just like that of the sphinx. Afcourse a birds wings are feathery, but the snake's skin is all reptialian. Just as the lion the birds has legs which the snake doesn't have. The head and neck of a dragon could be seen as a fair mix of the head of a lion, a snake and a bird.

Proximity and possible source

Would it seem like a difficult suggestion for people here, if i'd argued that Nagga was likely around at a time where there were likely aslo still great lions around and great birds in the Vale? Because the thin is, it's all not to far from eachother, and in between would have been living Cotf at that time i presume who had warging abbilety's. And now i want to come back to Nissa Nissa, what if the relation between that of AA and NN was that of a warg and a warged creature who in many ways was AA's "sould mate"?

The stone sphinxes as dragon incubators

"to raise dragons from stone"

There are 2 different types of stone sphinx. One has the stone sphixes which sit at the entrance of the citadel, who are part lion, art snake, and part bird, and then you have the "valyrian sphinxes" which look like i presume parth human and part dragon.

Why do these sphinxes exist? their origin and reason has been quite a mystery. What if i argue that these things were steps in the process of creating dragons. They are dragon incubators i think. I presume these things are hollow, you put the abse ingredient inside, and the sphinx makes a dragon out of it. The Sphinxes that sit before the gates of oldtown were AA's original i presume, and the ones Valyrians had were more common and somewhat advanced and molded for their needs.

Otherwise you'd think those Sphinxes are just very heavy objects to put there, which kinda makes it less interresting if it's only around for aesthetical purposes, kinda a waste to have that just for showing off. And one is left to wonder why the Targaryans had such Valyrian sphinxes sitting at the red Keep, where did they get them from if the red keep was build well after the doom and why? Did the Targaryans brought with them such Sphinxes when they left valyria?

dragons are a sum of 3 parts

"the dragon has 3 heads"

edit: Damned, sorry for the double post of this thread, i had an error first.

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Because i understand that this thread might be very confusing, ill ad a TLDR



TLDR: Dragons are the biological sum of 3 creatures, Nagga the serpent or firewyrm, a great lion, and a big Vale bird. they were likely created by AA. The 3 parts of the AA story is a parallel to the 3 base ingredients that makes a dragon, so is the remark that the dragon has 3 heads. The oldtown sphinxes were models or incubators used by AA to produce this biological mix, and Valyrian sphinxes are later models derived from the Oldtown ones, and thats how dragons get raised from stone.


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Wow...hmm I gotta say its a refreshing take on the AA thing.

"It's a recipe" haha

Thank you for the heads up: :cool4:

At times ill maybe add to this theory, like now:

The shattered pieces of broken attempts:

The lightbringer saga tells us that the first 2 attempted swords broke and shattered on trying to temper them. I'd like to argue that in light of this theory, this then likely reffers to the descendants of the creature's which were either intermediate steps into creating a dragon or failed leftovers. Lets say that in trying to create dragons, AA also made other dragonlike or combo like species inhabeting the world now. Such might be wyverns which one could argue are more a combination between Serpent and bird, Griffin's which tend to be a combination of bird and lion, manticore's which tends to be the combination of a lions body, a human head and a scorpions tale, and probably more mythical creature's inhabiting the Asoiaf world.

Nissa Nissa: the harpy

One fantastic piece to add to the equasion would be a harpy. As i mentioned before, i didn't have a good candidate for Nissa Nissa yet. All i knew was that the equasion needed wings, but then again, maybe also a touch of humanity. And while dragons have no human faces, there is kinda a grey zone with some Targaryans for ex appearing to have dragon characteristics.

The harpy would be an excellent last piece to the puzzle. Afterall, the harpy is half a bird, half a female human.

Its also remarkable that the one distinction that allowed a targaryan to raise dragosn, was that compared to those targaryans who attempted it before she was actually female. And maybe female targaryans are more important than male ones.

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I've always wondered about why Dany is 'Daughter of Three' according to House of the Undying prophecies. After reading this theory about how a dragon is the sum of three parts- Could Dany (a Targaryen is synonymous with a Dragon sometimes) be the daughter of three in this way?

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I've always wondered about why Dany is 'Daughter of Three' according to House of the Undying prophecies. After reading this theory about how a dragon is the sum of three parts- Could Dany (a Targaryen is synonymous with a Dragon sometimes) be the daughter of three in this way?

That would be the idea. "Dragons" , be it the mythical ones or probably also the human ones (since obvious conections) are supposed to be a sum of 3 ingredients here, just like the Oldtown Sphinx is a sum of 3 ingredients.

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Azor ahai @ Oldtown, and dragon connections.



i read somewhere that some maester had actually provided proof that dragons originated from Westeros, we just don't get any details in the boos as to the nature of that proof, just that proof supposedly exists, and this was reference'd in a book by another maester or was it Septon Barth?



If the Sphinxes were dragon incubators made by AA , then AA might have lived at Oldtown. be it maybe for a while? AA worked in the sacred temples and sacred fires, something along the lines of that. Where does one find sacred fire and temples? Oldtown has quite a few old temples at the least, it's a very old city, and it's sacred fire might reference to a fire that has existed in the world for thousands of years supposedly, that of the hightower which has been kept alight for how long? otoh, those sacred temples/fires might just awell have been in another old city.



If Dragons originated from Westeros, it would be most likely Oldtown though. From which other place will you get old reference's to dragons than that of the Hightower and it's "battle isle". It has been noted down by Maesters in the Citadel that some of the hightowers origin story's speak of dragons, who where later kinda like "evicted" from it? And that woudl have been a very long time indeed, long before there was mention of Valyrian dragonriders afaik.



So, dragons most likely originated from Oldtown because a) a maester proved they originated from westeros and B) the only old reference to old dragons in Westeros i know is from oldtown.




And now for a bit of fun: Manual on how to use Stone sphinxes to raise dragons from stone



One taketh: 1/3rd of legendary Nagga blood, 1/3rd of great lion king blood, 1/3rd of great bird blood.



One poureth these in a stone half bowl, one lets the combination settle a bit, on closet the vessel by putting another stone half bowl on top.



One places this within the male Sphinx. One seeks for himself how to open it, Azor Ahai was short on ink, figure it out for yourself. The male sphinx will then transform the combination, and produce for you an egg.



One taketh this egg, one finds a way to place this egg within the female sphinx and plz be gentle with here. One waits. One waits not a 30 days! one waits not a 50 days! one waits a 100 days!



One pets his pet dragon, and gives it some uninspiring name like "Dragan"


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Because i understand that this thread might be very confusing, ill ad a TLDR

TLDR: Dragons are the biological sum of 3 creatures, Nagga the serpent or firewyrm, a great lion, and a big Vale bird. they were likely created by AA. The 3 parts of the AA story is a parallel to the 3 base ingredients that makes a dragon, so is the remark that the dragon has 3 heads. The oldtown sphinxes were models or incubators used by AA to produce this biological mix, and Valyrian sphinxes are later models derived from the Oldtown ones, and thats how dragons get raised from stone.

Is this where "the dragon has three heads" comes from as well?

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Is this where "the dragon has three heads" comes from as well?

Well, where does it come from?

Afaik, doesn't the reference aslo come from Maestar Aemon, just like "the spinx is the riddle, not the riddler?

As to the former, a more obvious reference usually tends to hark back to the fact that aegon and his sisters were with 3 and that each rode a dragon, and that now Dany has 3 dragons it's expected that the other 2 vacant dragons should get riders. Aegon also refference's to the idea that the dragons must have 3 heads when his first son is born.

In this theory, a dragons head would be the sum of 3 heads, a lions head, a birds head , and that of a sea snake of sorts forged together by Azor Ahai. Valyrians are more or less kinda biologicly connected to dragons, and i figure they that makes them a sum of those 3 parts aswell. So what 3 parts then? A Iron islander, a westerlander and a valeman? Maybe the first valyrians were a mongrel people of first men that had a very wide scale of warging abbilety's indeed, and that made them able to warg/control dragons eventually too?

Can't say that i already decided on this part though.

As to the latter being the other sentence by maester Aemon, this was something i wanted to add in light of this discussion: "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler". And interresting point was made by a previous poster not so long ago that Maester amon couldn't know Sarella, and therefore the reference to here seemed a it fo a stretch. besides that, the very sentence speak of the riddle being importnatn, not the "riddler", thus supposedly he focus should not be a person but a mystery that seemled to have occupied Maester Aemons mind.

Maester Aemon probably witnessed those Sphinxes quite often, and he might have gotten interrested in them, an be left with questions regarding them and their origin, especially in light of the challenge's of his family.

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  • 1 month later...

I want to say two things: "interesting" and "naah". I think I see what you mean but it all feels very loose, like odd pieces to a puzzle, forced together. Still interested in following along this theory and seeing it evolve if it would.

First off, how did you come to question the story of AA and that it was not about a sword at all? And the origins of the dragons? As we know (not having read the world book) the Valyrians thought they came from the Fourteen Flames and some think they came from Asshai IIRC.

But I like questioning things! If I may, I would like to add another point of view on the subject and that is that of all the Gods involved. We have references to the Drowned God, the Old Gods, R'hllor, what else? What came to my mind was if any of these play a part in this? At least that of Melisandre, the Lord of Light and his close connection to AA. If I'm gonna blow things out of proportion: Drowned God (Nagga, water, serpent), Old Gods (CotF, "you'll never walk again, but you will fly", wings) and R'hllor (fire, a heart etc).

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I've always wondered about why Dany is 'Daughter of Three' according to House of the Undying prophecies. After reading this theory about how a dragon is the sum of three parts- Could Dany (a Targaryen is synonymous with a Dragon sometimes) be the daughter of three in this way?

I always assumed it was because 3 is a recurring number throughout her dynasty. Three siblings, three dragons, three heads on the dragon. It's a magical number, like 7.

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