Heresy 157

[Black Crow]

GRRM is challenging the perception of identity, and therefore expectations, at every turn. Disguises, glamours, nature vs. nurture, it’s all there.

Two great quotes:

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

Jon’s blood (nature) may certainly matter, but will his identity/upbringing as a Stark (nurture) prevail or be destroyed? Did Varys and Illyrio nurture a perfect King? And for all Dany’s certainty about her “blood” even that has some suspicions but that’s a (huge) debate for another time.

There does seem to be some precedent that “nature/blood” will prevail in the end. We certainly see that with Brynden Rivers.

This is one of the reasons why starting off Heresy 158 by looking closely, not just at Bran's identity but at all of this identity stuff could be a good idea, and why I referred earlier to the possibility of Bran's story being a redemption arc, because I do think that a strong case can be made for his going over to the dark side [and another reason thereby to distrust the three-fingered tree-huggers] but that in the end the business of maester and greenseer uniting suggests that he will come out of that darkness in the end.

Likewise I think, if we revert briefly to Jon Snow, in the end the whole R+L=J may not be a game-changer in terms of identity because he is not just a son of Winterfell; he is a younger Eddard Stark.

Arya, yes an obvious skinchanger but she's not adrift with no identity of her own, she has kept Needle as a way of hanging on to being Arya Stark of Winterfell.

Sansa; again skinchanging, but again fundamentally I think live or die a daughter of Winterfell

[Phillip Frye]

This is also an interesting interview on the subject of his dissatisfaction with the way the mysteries/puzzles were resolved on Lost.

Speaking for myself, my favorite part of the interview is:

"And the central mystery of the show -- the island itself -- was also fascinating, at least for the first few years. It became less so, for me at least, in the final couple of seasons, as riddles and enigmas and twists and turns and puzzles were piled on top of one another, and I began to think, 'There is no way they are going to be able to pull all of this together.'"

Yes, Mr. Martin, we all know that feeling, some of us for the last decade.

[Phillip Frye]

I'm gonna try to catch up soon, but I've been meaning to get back to a link BC had posted a few days ago, about "Balor" the giant with an eye in his forehead. Here is the wikipedia link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balor

A lot of good stuff in there, but here's what really caught my attention:

Balor is said to be the son of Buarainech and husband of Cethlenn. Balor is described as a giant with an eye in the middle of his forehead. This eye wreaks destruction when opened. The Cath Maige Tuired calls it a "destructive" and "poisonous" eye that no army can withstand, and says that it takes four men to lift the eyelid. In later folklore it is described as follows: "It was always covered with seven cloaks to keep it cool. He took the cloaks off one by one. At the first, ferns began to wither. At the second, grass began to redden. At the third, wood and trees began to heat up. At the fourth, smoke came out of wood and trees. At the fifth, everything got red hot. At the sixth...... At the seventh, the whole land caught fire"

Thanks for bringing this back up. In 158, we might also want to discuss another character with an eye that wreaks destruction when uncovered. If I remember correctly, that character keeps his destructive eye covered. Wasn't he also visited by a three-eyed crow?

[Phillip Frye]

You know, R+L=J makes a great deal of sense if you assume that the KG and Lyanna were ensconced at Starfall during Robert's Rebellion, the bed of blood was at Starfall, and the three members of the Kingsguard were headed up the road to challenge certain people to combat to avenge their fallen king/protect their new king. Starfall would have been a good location for the same reason that the tourney was held at Harrenhal.

It has been noted before the Oberyn Martell's original plan (with Jaime Lannister maimed) was probably to poison Tywin Lannister and then kill the Mountain in combat at his trial (it makes Oberyn's statements to Tyrion that Oberyn was surprised that he was not on trial instead of Tryion much more interesting). Instead, Oberyn got to move his plan forward by acting as Tyrion's champion.

The reason that I raise this point is that the three members of the Kingsguard were probably planning something similar: to advance and challenge certain people to combat or get arrested as traitors. When arrested as traitors, demand trial by combat and seek to slay whomever they face. Then, wash, rinse, and repeat.

[WeaselPie]

And Aegon hidden away in Dorne makes sense.

Who would Ashara want to protect? Rhaegar's lurve-baby with a Northern girl, or the child of her friend, Elia? Or the child of her brother? Or her own for that matter. Ashara has three good reasons to jump off a tower run off with a child of her friend or her own blood.

Then of course there are two princes in the tower in the War of the Roses.

I don't personally agree that RLJ makes sense if we believe Lyanna and baby were at Starfall. But since I don't believe RLJ and I think Lyanna wasn't anywhere near there, voila. :)

[JNR]

"And the central mystery of the show -- the island itself -- was also fascinating, at least for the first few years. It became less so, for me at least, in the final couple of seasons, as riddles and enigmas and twists and turns and puzzles were piled on top of one another, and I began to think, 'There is no way they are going to be able to pull all of this together.'"

Yes, Mr. Martin, we all know that feeling, some of us for the last decade.

You know, actually... as critical as I sometimes am of aspects of these books... I have nothing but praise for GRRM in this particular department.

Going by the interviews, I am freakishly similar to GRRM re my taste in mysteries. Like him, I watched the new BSG and Lost. Like him, I saw that the mysteries were not designed properly, but that the creators were instead only trying... successfully... to engage the audience week by week. A classic instance of this on Lost would be the mystery of Hurley's numbers, over which a tremendous amount of fan brainpower was absolutely, and for far too long, wasted to no effect.

And like GRRM, I was sure that there was not going to be any way to resolve the various Lost/BSG puzzles and mysteries satisfactorily. I was just sure of it somewhat faster than he was (or said he was in the interview) -- by the middle of season two in both cases.

I clearly remember annoying my friends, who were fans of both shows, by pointing this out, sometimes in blunt and unapologetic language that was incredibly similar to GRRM's assessment of the Lost finale:

If they pull all of this together, it’s going to be the greatest show in the history of television, man. They better know how to pull all of this together! And then when I reached the end and they hadn’t pulled it altogether, in fact, they left a big turd on my doorstep? I was pretty upset, you know.

And though most of my friends would disagree, I thought BSG's finale was just as bad or worse in that department. I mean... come on. Give me a break. Turd on my doorstep.

But with ASOIAF I somehow had the opposite reaction, right from the start. I just knew, at a deep intuitive level, that GRRM had baked his cake the way God intended, with proper mysteries, proper clues, and satisfying-but-difficult solutions at the end. And I still think that today. In fact, I'm sure of it today.

How I knew this way back then, don't ask me, because it makes no sense. But I did, and it led me to analyze things and figure things out and I wasn't disappointed with the answers I got (though if I'm wrong, I certainly will be disappointed then). And I think most of us here probably have gut-level beliefs along similar lines or we wouldn't blow an hour a day or more reading the forums, and working out our own ideas about what GRRM has been doing all along.

I do wish he would do it faster. And if he went back to the more abbreviated storytelling style of ACOK, that would be fine too. But for his mysteries/puzzles themselves I have nothing so far but admiration.

[WeaselPie]

-

But with ASOIAF I somehow had the opposite reaction, right from the start. I just knew, at a deep intuitive level, that GRRM had baked his cake the way God intended, with proper mysteries, proper clues, and satisfying-but-difficult solutions at the end. And I still think that today. In fact, I'm sure of it today.

How I knew this way back then, don't ask me, because it makes no sense. But I did, and it led me to analyze things and figure things out and I wasn't disappointed with the answers I got (though if I'm wrong, I certainly will be disappointed then). And I think most of us here probably have gut-level beliefs along similar lines or we wouldn't blow an hour a day or more reading the forums, and working out our own ideas about what GRRM has been doing all along.

I do wish he would do it faster. And if he went back to the more abbreviated storytelling style of ACOK, that would be fine too. But for his mysteries/puzzles themselves I have nothing so far but admiration.

So.. I'm guessing you agree GRRM did not spoil the mystery in a few dozen lines back in Book One...

If anyone has ever done a jigaw puzzle based on... I dunno, say a Van Gogh painting, then I think it's a good metaphor for how Turtle is building his clues. By themselves, each piece is a blurry nothing and it has to fit somewhere, but put them together with absolute precision, and voila. The big picture makes sense. He's holding a bunch under his placemat for now.

I love crackpots (no news there) but the best ones are the ones where you can almost see whatever personal version of Starry Night our old Turtle painted then hacked apart. The pieces need to fit, they can't stand on their own.

Without getting too personal, it's very much what I do for a living. The smallest detail has to be absolutely precise, but the big picture needs to make sense creatively.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

You know, actually... as critical as I sometimes am of aspects of these books... I have nothing but praise for GRRM in this particular department...

...

...with ASOIAF ...I just knew, at a deep intuitive level, that GRRM had baked his cake the way God intended, with proper mysteries, proper clues, and satisfying-but-difficult solutions at the end. And I still think that today. In fact, I'm sure of it today.

I never watched Lost, or BSG... not much of a TV guy, frankly... but I think GRRM's description of what he hoped Lost could have been offers us a great template for what he is actually working to do with ASOIAF:

If 'Lost' had delivered an ending that tied everything together in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion, I would have been first in line to buy the boxed set of DVDs so I could go back and watch it again episode by episode, exclaiming with pleasure, "Aha, so that's what that meant," and, "Oho, now I see, I thought that meant X, but it really meant Y."

I think we've seen him do this successfully with respect to several mysteries already solved in these books. I fully expect he will be successful in pulling this off with the mystery of Jon Snow's parents. And I'm hopeful - though not yet sure - that many larger, and still-open-ended, questions will eventually "tie.. together... in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion." His track record is looking good to me, so far. So here's to hopin'! :cheers:

[Voice]

Lotta good comments everybody. I'll have to catch up after class.

[Urrax2]

... In 158, we might also want to discuss another character with an eye that wreaks destruction when uncovered. If I remember correctly, that character keeps his destructive eye covered. Wasn't he also visited by a three-eyed crow?

Evil-eye Fleegle, he of the triple whammy?

[Black Crow]

... but I think GRRM's description of what he hoped Lost could have been offers us a great template for what he is actually working to do with ASOIAF:

If 'Lost' had delivered an ending that tied everything together in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion, I would have been first in line to buy the boxed set of DVDs so I could go back and watch it again episode by episode, exclaiming with pleasure, "Aha, so that's what that meant," and, "Oho, now I see, I thought that meant X, but it really meant Y."

I think we've seen him do this successfully with respect to several mysteries already solved in these books. I fully expect he will be successful in pulling this off with the mystery of Jon Snow's parents. And I'm hopeful - though not yet sure - that many larger, and still-open-ended, questions will eventually "tie.. together... in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion." His track record is looking good to me, so far. So here's to hopin'! :cheers:

Indeed, and I think a big difference between this present vale of tears and Lost is that GRRM does know how it ends, but while he has confirmed that some answers will be forthcoming, I do suspect that as the dust settles on the battlefield and the credits start to roll we will still be wondering who Coldhands was.

[RedViperofDorne54]

Welcome to the forum Viper :cheers:

And to your point, there is indeed no precedent within the text for BC's ronin KG. Kingsguard can never, in fact, be ronin, because there is always another king. Kings come and go, and as they do, the kingsguard serve the heir. With the news of Viserys being named heir, it makes even less sense for members of the kingsguard to combat Ned and his men. Not to mention, how very out-of-character it would be for the honorable Ser Arthur Dayne to just start blindly swinging his sword at whoever happened upon the ToJ, instead of pointing his compass towards Viserys.

Thanks for the welcome. :cheers:

I've actually posted in here once or twice before but I'm more of a lurker to be honest. Been reading heresy since about the 80th thread and its by far the best thread on here for ideas that go against the norm.

[Eira Seren]

I never watched Lost, or BSG... not much of a TV guy, frankly... but I think GRRM's description of what he hoped Lost could have been offers us a great template for what he is actually working to do with ASOIAF:

If 'Lost' had delivered an ending that tied everything together in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion, I would have been first in line to buy the boxed set of DVDs so I could go back and watch it again episode by episode, exclaiming with pleasure, "Aha, so that's what that meant," and, "Oho, now I see, I thought that meant X, but it really meant Y."

I think we've seen him do this successfully with respect to several mysteries already solved in these books. I fully expect he will be successful in pulling this off with the mystery of Jon Snow's parents. And I'm hopeful - though not yet sure - that many larger, and still-open-ended, questions will eventually "tie.. together... in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion." His track record is looking good to me, so far. So here's to hopin'! :cheers:

Hmm, am pretty sure that's his project, too. Though he's definitely become extremely ambitious of late. Probably we will have the mysteries solved that he has in mind, and the ones the fans have in mind will just have to wait. . . maybe they will be tied up, but then again. . . not if they don't fit for GRRM :)

Lotta good comments everybody. I'll have to catch up after class.

class on Saturday? :ack:

[wolfmaid7]

I've spread it around in a bunch of different threads (basically my attempt to hijak other people's hard earned threads), but I'll try to lay it out when I get back in town, it's a pain in the butt typing on an ipad.

Sweet looking forward to this,i've been itching to have a guide that just have alternatives :devil:

This is one of the reasons why starting off Heresy 158 by looking closely, not just at Bran's identity but at all of this identity stuff could be a good idea, and why I referred earlier to the possibility of Bran's story being a redemption arc, because I do think that a strong case can be made for his going over to the dark side [and another reason thereby to distrust the three-fingered tree-huggers] but that in the end the business of maester and greenseer uniting suggests that he will come out of that darkness in the end.

Likewise I think, if we revert briefly to Jon Snow, in the end the whole R+L=J may not be a game-changer in terms of identity because he is not just a son of Winterfell; he is a younger Eddard Stark.

Arya, yes an obvious skinchanger but she's not adrift with no identity of her own, she has kept Needle as a way of hanging on to being Arya Stark of Winterfell.

Sansa; again skinchanging, but again fundamentally I think live or die a daughter of Winterfell

Oh goody looking forward to this as well.

[Black Crow]

Heresy 158 is now open for business and discussion of identities and the opening of eyes.

See you all, old and new, over there.

[MaesterSam]

Thanks for bringing this back up. In 158, we might also want to discuss another character with an eye that wreaks destruction when uncovered. If I remember correctly, that character keeps his destructive eye covered. Wasn't he also visited by a three-eyed crow?

Funny, Euron was actually the first character I thought of. But then it didn't sound like the crow ever managed to open his third eye (something along the lines of the crow told him he could fly, but when he woke up the maester said he couldn't). Also his "evil eye" is in its socket, not in his forehead ;)