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Anti-gay bias is stupid


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After what I encountered today, I think I want to start taking a more preemptive approach to dealing with regressive people who have views that oppress homosexuals. I ran into a status from a guy on Facebook, and he wanted to know if women would be okay if two men raised a child together. There were two main points that pissed me off:

1. "People are products of their environment and that's why children shouldn't be around gays, because they'll learn "gay ways"".

What a load of bullshit. We are products of our education and our education follows us everywhere. The things we are exposed to in our environment can be flushed out with solid education and the acquisition of resources but not the other way around (IMO).

2. Point one was then used to say that: "Gay is a learned behavior and children should be given a chance to choose for themselves. Being around two gays prevents them from choosing."

What? What about two lesbians? Or a man and a woman couple? I guess the logic doesn't work here. They went on and on about how men have more influence on children than women, so there's an element of misogyny at play here too.

That's to say nothing about the fact that your orientation and attraction isn't a choice: it's chemical. Your only choice is the response to your natural inclinations. Anyways, for those of you that are familiar with these bigoted arguments, what are the typical responses you give that breed positive results?

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I'd challenge the entire premise. Even if their idea that a homosexual couple is a factory that churns out gay children was accurate, what the problem with it? Why would someone being gay be something to prevent.

Honestly I don't know how effective anything you say would be, changing the way prejudices doesnt happen over night, I think its something that happens from a vollectiob of experiences coupled with some serious introspection over time. But good on you for wanting to and trying.

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i agree with the Imp...changing an idiot into an enlightened beneficial member of society is a long row to hoe, as my Daddy would say...



...the good news is ignorant fools like that can't live forever



...bad news they aren't dying off fast enough



:smoking:


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People I've encountered are worse. According to them, they can't be homophobes because they aren't ' afraid of gays ' , they just don't want them gays to 'parade it in their faces'. This illogic follows that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but then the person should be prepared to be treated inferior for the rest of their lives.

I think transgendered people have it worse- today at least people know homophobia isn't acceptable , but trans people just have vileness spewed at them ,even openly.

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I was pondering it yesterday looking at the story of an anti-gay preacher being drowned out by a busker. I was thinking that I can understand anti-abortion protesters, I disagree with them but to them they are fighting mass murder so the level of emotion is understandable. But what on earth makes you go out on pride night and stand there for hours shouting to thousands and thousands of people that they are doomed and going to hell and they need to repent etc etc. I hate saying that homophobia is rooted in people in denial in the closet, but I honestly think that is the only explanation for those that take it to that extreme, they are trying to fight the gay within...and still get to go out to the pride celebration too!


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Yep, it is. My brother used to be pretty homophobic, would say shit like he'd want to beat gay people up etc. Then he started seeing a girl who worked at a bar, and the bar manager there was gay so he ended up spending a bit of time with the guy who is gay, and eventually changed his views on gay people. Sometimes just getting to know someone beyond their sexual preference can change peoples ways

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I hate saying that homophobia is rooted in people in denial in the closet, but I honestly think that is the only explanation for those that take it to that extreme, they are trying to fight the gay within...and still get to go out to the pride celebration too!

A big deal is always made when a homophobe turns out to be gay, and maybe there is a slight link for the more extreme cases, but I think bigots just want there to be a group of people they can feel better than so must vilify that group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlzaBi_QxPw#t=145

Sometimes just getting to know someone beyond their sexual preference can change peoples ways

Daryl Davis achieved success with this in regards to race, but obviously it is not something that he (or homosexuals) should have to do.

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Yes. Homophobia is stupid. And most homophobes are pretty stupid, if for no other reason than their homophobia (though, like just about everyone, they'll turn out stupid in other ways too).



The worst part of this or any type of bigotry is the fundamentally childish immaturity. Because homophobia is frowned upon in polite society, people tend to try to deny that they have it. And it's like when a kid's stolen a cookie. You know he did, he knows he did, but he's afraid to admit it no matter how many times you point to all the evidence or reason, and so he won't. And arguing with a bigot about his bigotry tends to resemble arguments with children over their cookie theft adventures.



It's sort of like how just about nobody admits to being a racist. They lack the courage needed to be honest. They'd rather weasel and use euphemistic language and paint themselves in a nice light. They'll waffle, contradict themselves, and outright lie all because they're afraid mommy will move the cookie jar to where they can't get at it.


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I've been arguing with internet antigay people for 20 years now. Here's how it goes.



First, use "anti-gay bias" instead of "homophobia." A lot less chance for sidetracking.



If they say that being gay is a choice, don't argue with them that it is not. Instead, ask them why choosing to be gay is a bad thing. They will either choose (1) argument from nature or (2) argument from Bible.



For the Nature argument, it breaks down to (1a) We need to reproduce, (1b ) Animals/ancestors are heterosexual.



Counter (1a) with (1ai) Sterile heterosexual couples (age or infertility) and heterosexual couples who choose not to reproduce, (1aii) Gay couples can donate sperm and eggs to fulfill the reproductive imperative, so will they forego their objection if each same-sex couple donate their sperms/eggs?



Counter (1b ) with (1bi) Almost all mammalian species showed degrees of homosexuality, as well as many birds, (1bii) many animals also kill the youngs of competing reproductive pairs, and eat their own shit, too. Should we imitate that, as well?



If they choose track 2, it can be either (2a) The Bible/Koran forbids homosexuality and (2b ) Love the sinner, hate the sin.



Counter (2a) wiith (2ai) The holy text also condemns many other things we ignore today, like ritual cleanliness for menstruating women. They will come back with (2ai-1) which is that some of those laws have been done away with by the coming of Christ. Counter with (2ai-1a) which is that the 10 Commandments haven't been done away with, and yet, we do not make laws to forbid worshipping of false Gods (first 2 Commandments).



Counter (2b ) with (2bi) not all religious faiths take it as true that homosexuality is a sin. Reformed Judaism, Episcapols, etc., plenty of denominations that accept and welcome LBG Chrsitians, (2bii) In what way is it a demonstration of "loving the sinner" by denying they equal treatments from society?




Then go on counter-offensive. Ask them why are they so scared that children will fail to choose the "right" option. If heterosexuality is moral, right, just, natural, and favored by God, what do they have to fear from gay parents? Are gay parents more powerful than God, to turn people away from His intended path for people?



Ask them, further, that since God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot know His will, is it not possible that it is His plan to allow some people to be gay for His own reasons? After all, He allows free will of people to choose. Are they not offending God in presuming to know better?



Finally, cap it off with the argument that a faith tested is a true faith, and cite Jesus' time spent in the desert. So having children grow up in a gay household is a great thing, because then it will reinforce their choice to be straight later on.





ETA



Notice that you're not arguing that their faith is wrong, at all. That is a no-win battle. You're also not arguing about translation and interpretation of the Bible. That is also a no-win because most Christians don't even know the history of the Bible, let alone the nuances in translation. You are, instead, taking their premises and accepting it, and then arguing with it.


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What about 3a) gays will lead to people marrying their dogs?




OK, I guess that's more specifically about opposition to gay marriage than general homophobia. I just remember circa 2006-7 or so hearing two separate friends at completely different moments use that same argument as the reason why gay marriage should be opposed. Made me wonder if it was just the talking point du jour.


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Then go on counter-offensive. Ask them why are they so scared that children will fail to choose the "right" option. If heterosexuality is moral, right, just, natural, and favored by God, what do they have to fear from gay parents? Are gay parents more powerful than God, to turn people away from His intended path for people?


Finally, cap it off with the argument that a faith tested is a true faith, and cite Jesus' time spent in the desert. So having children grow up in a gay household is a great thing, because then it will reinforce their choice to be straight later on.






I feel like this is always the weakest point people bring up because it depends on a very optimistic view of human nature (on the part of the religious) and the idea that a culture cannot lead people astray regardless of what moral instincts they have.No one is guaranteed righteousness. I mean, look at Sodom and Gomorrah.







Ask them, further, that since God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot know His will, is it not possible that it is His plan to allow some people to be gay for His own reasons? After all, He allows free will of people to choose. Are they not offending God in presuming to know better?


An obvious problem in general but once you already buy into the idea then this case won't bother you.



God makes assholes too and then tells people to kill them or shun them. This doesn't then mean that he wanted assholes around.




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1. "People are products of their environment and that's why children shouldn't be around gays, because they'll learn "gay ways"".

What a load of bullshit. We are products of our education and our education follows us everywhere. The things we are exposed to in our environment can be flushed out with solid education and the acquisition of resources but not the other way around (IMO).

Well, thats what happens if you start ignoring we are beeings made of flesh and blood. (And the fact that we life in non linear world)

Even if one woud assume their is a "trigger" for becoming gay, that does not mean you know it. Hell it could be classical music in combination with a high contrast nit rounded room decoration.

(Thinking of it, I do not think that more acceptance for sex between men would lead to more men beeing gay (or identifing as such). I would actually assume that we would see an increase in "bi" and a decrase in "gay".)

2. Point one was then used to say that: "Gay is a learned behavior and children should be given a chance to choose for themselves. Being around two gays prevents them from choosing."

What? What about two lesbians? Or a man and a woman couple? I guess the logic doesn't work here. They went on and on about how men have more influence on children than women, so there's an element of misogyny at play here too.

The last part is particularly intersting, because acutally in our reality the opposite is the case. Just looking at what gender is more involved in childcare. My guess is that a lot of people just don't see lesbians as a real thing.

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Bing bing bing. There is a reason bisexual men are assumed to be really gay, while bisexual women are assumed to be really straight. It's sexism, men are wonderful and everyone really just wants the cock. Lesbians can't be real because they would be women who aren't into men, can't have that.


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The question I have been asking friends, acquaintances, and other random (often homophobic) people for years now is this: do they have the same problem with a pair of feminine lesbians as they do with two men being together? I have found that most of them are actually okay with lesbians and PDA. And if they are not, it is to a lesser extent. Some even watch lesbian porn and have fantasies and such. The question I ask from there is: what is the difference between men and women? It descends from there since I suspect there are traces of subconscious sexism at play. Then again, I hear of too many stories of corrective rape (where a staggering majority of the victims are women). Corrective rape is something I will never be able to understand.



As to homophobia in general, I agree, it's pretty stupid.



Terra, I want to try your debate method and see how that goes.


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The question I have been asking friends, acquaintances, and other random (often homophobic) people for years now is this: do they have the same problem with a pair of feminine lesbians as they do with two men being together? I have found that most of them are actually okay with lesbians and PDA. And if they are not, it is to a lesser extent. Some even watch lesbian porn and have fantasies and such. The question I ask from there is: what is the difference between men and women? It descends from there since I suspect there are traces of subconscious sexism at play.

I don't think that there is any logic at play here, it's just an emotional reaction. Firstly men are quite likely to find lesbian PDA attractive and arousing, I'd wager most men have watched lesbian porn at some point, if not frequently. So it's something that they are more familiar with. Much of homophobia is I think just a negative reaction to something new, but lesbian PDA is something they are used to. And also, related to that is that society tends to expect women to be more "touchy feely" with one another anyway. Women hug, touch, hold hands a lot more than men do. So Lesbian PDA is not far removed from the expressions of affection we might expect from platonic female friends.

And that double standard is obviously wrong, but I think that's the reasoning behind it.

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I don't think that there is any logic at play here, it's just an emotional reaction. Firstly men are quite likely to find lesbian PDA attractive and arousing, I'd wager most men have watched lesbian porn at some point, if not frequently. So it's something that they are more familiar with. Much of homophobia is I think just a negative reaction to something new, but lesbian PDA is something they are used to. And also, related to that is that society tends to expect women to be more "touchy feely" with one another anyway. Women hug, touch, hold hands a lot more than men do. So Lesbian PDA is not far removed from the expressions of affection we might expect from platonic female friends.

And that double standard is obviously wrong, but I think that's the reasoning behind it.

They are used to it because it is less threatening and it is indeed less threatening because not-so-subconscious sexism.

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