The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

:bowdown: Wonderful essay BQ and MOIAF

I especially love the part where you say that it's about Dany reconciling all identies rather than selcting one. On a larger scale it fits with the theme of ice working alongside fire rather than one winning over the other.

I've never understood the reason why people believe Dany must chose one or the other.

Yes exactly. Dany's "dragons plant no trees" line isn't her totally turning away from EVER planting trees; it's that right here, right now, in this time and place and situation (the cesspool that is Slaver's Bay) planting trees isn't working because, to take the metaphor further, the soil is rotted and the trees can't survive. You can't expect a harvest on rotted ground. This isn't to say that Dany's mind set in all things after Slaver's Bay is going to be "burn them all!" for the rest of her journey, but rather that she's learned a lesson: sometimes in order to grow something new, you have to destroy the old. People who argue that Dany's mindset is now solely fire and blood seem to think that characters in ASOIAF are static, as if they don't learn from their mistakes and from their good calls.

:agree: especially the bolded.

Certainly, the Masters had their chance of peace, and peace on fairly generous terms, and they threw it away. They got to keep their lands, wealth, and status, and that wasn't enough for them. So, we shouldn't have much sympathy for them. There's more sympathy for people lower down the food chain, ranging from the "gently born" to the free poor, who were hit hard by the upheaval. They'll have their equivalents in Volantis and Western Essos, when Dany marches West.

Agreed, Dany gave them more than enough chances at peace, and she allowed them to keep most of their traditions except for the fighting pit. It seems they were more interested in become slavers again at the end of the day.

Every reader reads a different book.

I have often been reminded of this statement when I have participated in things like book discussion groups. Frequently, when listening to some of my friends give their analysis of, say, Moby Dick, I have wondered, “Did these people read the same book that I did? Are there very different, thoroughly contrasting versions of Moby Dick?”

I get the same feeling on these forums when I read various posters talk about “Dragons plant no trees.” For the life of me, I do not see any need to make the saying of this phrase some sort of watershed event. Dany thinks all kinds of things out there on the Dothraki sea. I'm not convinced that "Dragons plant no trees" is any more important than "The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home." To begin with, Jorah comes up with the first phrase. Now, some maintain that "Jorah," in this case, is actually a projection of Dany's unconscious. Why should we take this assertion as a given? "Jonah" here could be a vision. The dragons that Daenerys dreamed of earlier weren't just projections of her unconscious. And the "dragon queen will now burn everything down" analysis doesn't consider the context. When Dany first becomes aware of Jorah, she calls him "my old sweet bear." Are we to believe that the old sweet bear is telling her to go on a rampage? That doesn't sound too sweet to me. Actually, the thrust of his comments is the claim that the queen should not have stayed in Meereen. She should have bypassed the place. "Dragons plant no trees," then, would now mean no more than "it's time to move on."

I don't deny that there will be all kinds of blood and death in the upcoming books. We don't need any "plant no trees" commentary to tell us that. The vast majority of the death and destruction coming to Essos may have been accomplished before the young queen returns to Meereen. Westeros has been bleeding for a long time. It will continue to do so. whatever Daenerys Targaryen does. I think that the "trees" business has been overworked and overanalyzed.

I always wonder why people disregard her whole arc in ADWD and just focus on those four words to make a conclusion for her character. I agree with you that it is being completely over analyzed and also other parts of the story are being neglected.

[Ser Creighton]

Nice work as usual you two. So going through it I would like to start with a promised Khal, the Khal that was promised was in the books. Do you know what Khal means in our world? It means prince Prince, it's from the history of the Derbend, like Khalif, or Shamkhal which means the light.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t38-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA666&lpg=PA666&dq=Khal+means+prince&source=bl&ots=9O37YUsVO_&sig=aYODcLZIs60JHvAlOxU2W-4zXlE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KfpXVdvyCMXcsAXvpoCYBg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Khal%20means%20prince&f=false

Like you had the Khalifs of Damascus, and anyone who knows anything about the books knows Martin based Valyrian steel off Damascus steel and gave Khal Drogo another name, the Sun. The first sun of her life, eventually we get a second sun named Quentyn, and probably get a third sun, just like we will get the 3 crows. Just like Darrio the Stormcrow, Euron the Crows eye, and...

Of course Khal is probably to obvious I mean everyone must have read Mémoires de l'Académie impériale des sciences de St. Petersbourg ..., Volume 6. Right? It's some nice light reading, if you are history buff going for your PHD on. Of course I am looking at the ancient Persian etymology of the word Khalif, which of course is tied to Caliphate. There are various interpretations of this, like Khalifat Allah, succesor to god. I think, I could be wrong. There are more modern interpretations, but the root Khal is what I looked at,

Of course the death of Viserys is strangly similar to the first time Bran sees an execution, Bran is told not to look away and Dany is told to look away, they both watch. Had Dany been a man nobody would of told her to look away. Jon of course tells Bran to look and Jorah tells Dany to look away, Jon will later have Long Claw, this sword once belonged to Jorah.

See it has parallels.

It's intresting that it is in her dreams that Dany's pain, fear and grief are often burned away. Her mind and body often recast so to speak on the awakening. As if being forged and reforged by this internal fire. When she wanted to kill herself in the Dothraki see she was reforged, when her child was murdered and she lost almost everything she was reforged, harder and stronger. Forged by dragon fire.

If motherhood is her strength then the dragons are her resolve. Her child some say like Dany was recast into one of the Dragon eggs. He lives on in a way. It's when she lost her resolve to do what musst be done with the slavers, that she stopped embracing the Dragons, they were locked away or fled. But when that resolve begins to return, so do the dragons.

Intresting that Dany walked down the hall of her ancestors in a dream and they encourage her, and Jon while a Targaryen he is also still of stark blood walks down into the crypts in his dreams and they tell him he does not belong, in one version the dead rise. Jon goes down while in Danys dream she begins to fly. Also tied heavily to a dream with Bran.

Dragons plant no trees, well Dragons don't plant trees, they don't have the hands for it, Dany could if she desired because she is a person, but it is not the time for planting trees, Volantis is on the way, Yunkai has broken the peace, the Dothraki are returning, New Ghis wishes to attack her. Her quest right now is to reclaim who she is. As you point out that's really what is going on, its not about turning her backs on the freemen it's about fighting their common enemy. It's not time for Mysha, it is time for the Mother of Dragons. She needed to remember who she is and the slavers will be reminded of what she can do. It is also time for the slaves to start standing up for themselves and I don't mean the Unsullied, but we see some of that with the freemen companies. Just like in the red waste she needs to be strong for the Dragons, for the slaves and for herself right now. But I think all of them are going to be put to the test right now.

Really enjoyed the essay ladies, that's what I took away from it, except the Khal stuff, that is just a little treat. Intresting note on Dany's wedding dress I believe it had a lot of pearls on it and the pearls are symbolic of children among the people of Old Ghis. I have read that when she removed to Tokar she was casting aside the slaves. But in truth I think it is tied to her statement about not being the slavers mother. After all it is a Tokar, the garb of the slavers, and it was her wedding dress she wore for a slaver. So was it about the free men or is it as she says, I am not your mother, I am mother to your slaves. This appears to be the role Dany is casting aside, that she will not be mother to the slavers who are chanting Mysha in the Pit. The slaves are also chanting Mysha, but this whole spectical is for the slavers, the wedding, the dress, the pit, the whole deal and she tells us this in her arc. It's her children that she is concerned for, Dragon and freemen alike, she has not stopped caring for them. It is the slavers she does not want to be the mother of, as she says. I think at some point people assumed she was casting aside the slaves with the actions of that dress and embracing what she locked away, in truth she just seems to be casting aside the slavers, she does not want to be part of that group. She does not want to be the Mother of Harpies.

[Lady Darry]

This will be off topic, but I would just like to say that I love this thread. I read all essays in a heartbeat, it’s really amazing what you are all writing.

I had quite a emotional rollercoaster with Dany while i was reading books, but even though there were moments when I didn't like some of her decisions I always remained positive about her future and above all sympathetic towards her. When I first discovered this forum a few years ago all those ‘Dany hate’ thread made me worry about her future, but I remained positive. I recently started rereading books and I came her again, and again I started to worry about her. Mostly because in show basically everyone is whitewashed except Dany. But reading this thread reminded me that things are not black and white and it also got my hopes up.

Btw, is there a new date for when JCRB essay will be posted?

[BearQueen87]

This will be off topic, but I would just like to say that I love this thread. I read all essays in a heartbeat, it’s really amazing what you are all writing.

I had quite a emotional rollercoaster with Dany while i was reading books, but even though there were moments when I didn't like some of her decisions I always remained positive about her future and above all sympathetic towards her. When I first discovered this forum a few years ago all those ‘Dany hate’ thread made me worry about her future, but I remained positive. I recently started rereading books and I came her again, and again I started to worry about her. Mostly because in show basically everyone is whitewashed except Dany. But reading this thread reminded me that things are not black and white and it also got my hopes up.

Btw, is there a new date for when JCRB essay will be posted?

I believe we've decided to go ahead and forge ahead and MOIAF will be posting her first Dany/Jon analysis shortly (which I'm totally excited for!) I've missed you people and talking about Dany.

[MoIaF]

Hey guys!

Sorry for the delay but I'll be posting my essay by Sunday, at the latest. Thanks!

[MoIaF]

Before posting I just want to say that this essay was extremely hard for me to write. (I'm not even going to talk about the next two!). I thought this topic would come easy to me as I've discussed these characters often, but it was not easy at all. I'm not quite satisfied with the essay, however, it should hopefully be discussion worthy.

Complimentary Counterparts

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & Jon Snow

Essay I: From the Outside Looking In

Introduction

A princess on the run, a bastard brought up in a castle, so begins the story of Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow. One might ask what these two characters could possibly have in common, well, a lot actually. Superficially they might be as different as the sun and the moon yet their journeys, experiences, trials and tribulations have an uncanny parallel to them.

Their worlds where forever changed before they were even born, losing both of their parents to a war that tore the kingdom of Westeros apart, Robert’s Rebellion. These two orphans have not had an easy roads since then, lovers lost, brothers dead, no home or place to truly belong to. Where their journey will lead them is still unknown, as the last time we saw them they were both at a crossroads.

In this series of essays we will explore their journeys, from two lonely outsiders to young leaders trying to change a world that for far too long has been stagnant in its routine. We will also look at their lovers, their mentors and the magic that surrounds them.

This essay will focus on Dany and Jon as we first meet them, lonely outcast trying to find a place to belong. Finally, we’ll look at their closest bonds, those they share with their animal familiars, Dany and Drogon and Jon and Ghost.

Spirited Away

She was born in the West and smuggled East. He was born in the South and smuggled North. Both infants whisked away from the common threat that almost decimated their entire family, Robert’s Rebellion. Had they not been taken away they themselves would surely have been victims as well of this war. A harrowing start to life for both Dany and Jon, taken away from their place of birth neither of them has ever truly belonged anywhere ever since.

Dany

The details of Dany’s birth and escape from Dragonstone are pretty slim. They were told to her by Viserys who himself was still a child when Ser Darry fled with them to Braavos in order to save their lives. Dany recounts the tail in her very first chapter:

“She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible . The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper’s brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.”

As we see Dany has been spirited away since conception, first her mother runs from King’s Landing before the rebels sack it and then she is take away from Dragonstone before the rebels reach it. So started her life, living on the run, never stopping for too long should the hired knives catch them. This can be very hard on a child, never knowing the comfort of home and family, the stability that is necessary to feel cared for and safe. Running from one place to the next never setting down roots, it's no wonder why she yearns so much for the House with the Red Door.

This theme will continue throughout Dany’s life. After her time in Braavos (the longest she’s every lived in one place) she will continue to run from one city to another, never settling down. He time with the Dothraki is ironically parallel of this; she goes from one place to the next, as they themselves, are a nomadic people, never settling down. Next, after her time with the Dothraki she continues to go from one place to next, first Qarth, then Astapor, then Yunkai and finally she settles in Meereen, yet another place where she does not belong.

Jon

(Note, that for the purposes of this essay R+L=J will be treated as canon. )

Like Dany, what we know of Jon’s birth and the events soon after is very limited. Much of it has been inferred by the clues we have been given regarding his parentage. Early in AGOT we are told by Catelyn:

“When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard , and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea.”

Ned had gone down South for the war and when he returned, he returned with a child. Catelyn thinks that Ashara Dayne might be his mother; Ned says to Robert that it was a woman named Wylla. Nonetheless, by all accounts we know that Jon was born South and brought North.

However, as the series continue we begin to piece together the events surrounding Jon’s birth and it seems that they were not as straightforward as we were initially lead to believe. Not only was the war a shadow around his conception and birth, like with Dany, but also like her, his departure from the place of his birth was also marred by fighting and death.

From the information we are given it appears that Jon was born near or at the Tower of Joy in Dorne after the sack of King’s Landing. Ned went South in search of his sister Lyanna who had been taken or had left willingly, this is still up for debate, with Prince Rhaegar. When he reached the Tower of Joy he was confronted by three kingsguard who stood in the way of him getting to his sister. After a battle ensued, seven men died, while Ned and Howlin Reed survived. When Ned was finally able to get to his sister she had given birth to a child who Ned then spirited away North. Ned then claimed the child as his own in order to keep him safe.

Jon of course, unlike Dany, did not have to flee any further. In Winterfell he had a home and family that cared for him. However, he never quite felt like he fit in, both being a bastard and being unwanted by his “father’s” wife Catelyn made Jon feel like he did not quite belong.

Dany and Jon

If we believe the rummers both Dany and Jon were conceived in violence, king Aerys raped queen Rhaella to conceive Dany and supposedly Prince Rhaegar rapes the Lady Lyanna to conceive Jon. Both of their mother’s where hidden during their pregnancies and both died during childbirth and finally both Dany and Jon were whisked aways from the place of their birth in order to keep them safe.

It wasn’t an easy start to life for either character. Loosing most of their families as infants that shadow has followed them overtly and obscurely throughout their lives. And while Dany knows what happen, Jon is still in the shadows, yet it has affected them both in many similar ways. As we will continue to discuss, due to these circumstances both grew up feeling like outsiders, never quite fitting in or feeling like they belonged.

An interesting contrast between Dany and Jon is their experiences with the relative who raised them. While Dany was resented and demeaned and abusively treated by her brother, Jon was loved and cared for by his uncle.\father Ned.

It’s Lonely on the Outside

For Dany and Jon not fitting in is due to completely different circumstances. While Jon is outsider because of his status as a bastard, Dany is an outsider for being an exclude princess. Dany spent the first few years of her life living in the Sea Lord’s Palace in Braavos with her guardian Ser. Darry. He time there was peaceful; she had her own room and was well cared for by Ser Darry. After his death, however, they were thrown out of the palace and forced to go from one free city to the next begging the help of anyone who would offer it. From the time she was born to the moment where we meet her she has lived in 8 difference places: Dragonstone, Braavos, Myr, Tyrosh, Qohor, Volantis, Lys and Pentos. And while she was a beggar of sorts, she was still a princess and because she was a princess there were things her brother would not allow her to do, like play with the common children Dany encountered on the streets. This caused Dany a great deal of loneliness as it meant she wasn’t really able to make friends and the only companion she ever had was her brother.

Jon on the other hand grew up in a stable home with a family that cared for him, sans his father’s wife. As a child he dreamed that he would inherit Winterfell one day only to be told that as a bastard he was not be entitled to his family’s processions. This was very hard for Jon as he began to understand that his status in life precluded him from many of the things he would have been entitled to had he been a true born son. This made Jon feel like a misfit, he was part of a family yet outside of it. It was a difficult position to be in especially as a child as it’s hard to understand why you can’t be like everyone else. As he grew up he still had his family’s love but his position in life and society was something that was ever present for him, something he could not forget and would not be allowed to forget by society.

As we see them through the series their role as outsiders is very apparent, they each have found comfort and acceptance in certain places, the Dothraki, the Wall, the Wildings, yet they have never truly felt like they belonged anywhere.

Dany

When we encounter Dany for the first time in A Game of Thrones, she has been living for the past six months at the manse of Magister Illyrio Mopatis. He is the latest person that has taken her and her brother Viserys in. For Dany it’s just another place to feel as an outsider. She is once again living on the kindness of a stranger, as she looks outside all she wants to do is be like everyone else:

“The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo’s manse.”

All she wants is to be free to play with other children, to not have the responsibility of helping to restore her family’s crown upon her young shoulder. Having never truly had a childhood, all she wanted to do is to be a child. There is a deep loneliness there as she looks at the outside world, unable to join it. Not only is her loneliness born of her being unable to play along with other children but also because she was never allowed to set down roots. The only home she has ever known was in Braavos and that too was taken away from her when she was still a young child:

“She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany . He called her “Little Princess” and sometimes “My Lady,” and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door .

Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.”

A rather sad memory for a child to have, seeing the only home they’ve ever known ripped from them and to never know another home again. Now, at the age of 13 she has been the Magistrate Illyrio has arranged for her to be given to khal Drogo as a bride in order for her brother Viserys to gain an army and take back his family’s kingdom.

Her marriage to khal Drogo is difficult at first but she learns to find comfort and acceptance with the Dothraki and yet, she never considers her the Dothraki sea home, she still delivers that her real home is back in Westeros:

“What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?” she asked him. “Home,” he said. His voice was thick with longing. “I pray for home too,” she told him, believing it. Ser Jorah laughed.

“Look around you then, Khaleesi.” But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born . In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window . In her mind’s eye , all the doors were red.”

Even having found the family she craved she didn’t see her life with the Dothraki as home. She was still an outsider and what she wanted, was the home her brother had so often spoken to her about, their home in Westeros, the lifeline to the family she had never known. This home for Dany is a dream, she had never been there, what she imagined was an idealized version her brother had fed her. And yet, that's what she was seeking, a place where she felt she could belong.

I think that’s what Dany is searching for when she is searching for home. She wants a place to belong, as she is discussing home once again with Ser Jorah she thinks to herself:

“Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door … was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?”

She knows that she has an idealized version of Westeros and question whether that could actually be her home, what exactly did that mean to her. But she knows deep inside that she does not belong with the the Dosh Khaleen in Vaes Dothrak.

Her search for home and a place to belong is also mingled with her duty to restore her house and the former glory of her family. As they are both intertwined one can see why she conflates her need to belong with her need for home:

“If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.”

She thinks to herself that if she was not who she is, she could settle with the man she loved and just live a simple life. But alas that is not what she was meant for, she knows that she has a duty to her family, to their legacy, she feels an obligation to them, she cannot just turn her back on who she is:

“She had finally found a safe place, had finally tasted love and hope. She was finally going home. And now to lose it all … ”

“She could smell home , she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. “… the dragon …” And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.”

Home and family are forever intertwined in Dany’s mind. This comes to a head at the end of ADWD, while in the Dothraki sea she is confronted with the reality of what she wants and what she has to do:

"Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world. Do all Gods feel so lonely?”

…

“Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.”

Once again there is the realization that she does not belong, and will once again have to leave to find her way.

Jon

While Dany had a name but no place to call home, Jon had a place to call home but no name. Having a home, however, did not mean that Jon felt like he belonged. Even surrounded by a father who loved him and brothers and sisters that cared for him, he always felt like a misfit, an outcast, an outsider. The fact that he was a bastard and not a legitimate member of his family is something that is always present in his mind that although he had Stark blood he was not a true Stark.

“Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own . But what place could a bastard hope to earn?”

Once his father left to go South to become the king’s Hand Jon knew that he would no longer have a place at Winterfell. He decided to take his uncle up on his offers and join the men of Night’s Watch. As he continues on his journey he goes to Castle Black a place where at first he has a hard time adjusting to yet he realizes that there is no where else for he to belong. He no longer could call Winterfell his home and his new home is now with the men of the Watch.

“A deep restlessness was on him as he went back to Hardin’s Tower for Ghost. The direwolf walked beside him to the stables. Some of the more skittish horses kicked at their stalls and laid back their ears as they entered. Jon saddled his mare, mounted, and rode out from Castle Black, south across the moonlit night. Ghost raced ahead of him, flying over the ground, gone in the blink of an eye. Jon let him go. A wolf needed to hunt.

He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King’s Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces , the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here.

Once he swore his vow , the Wall would be his home until he was old as Maester Aemon . “I have not sworn yet,” he muttered . He was no outlaw, bound to take the black or pay the penalty for his crimes. He had come here freely, and he might leave freely … until he said the words. He need only ride on, and he could leave it all behind. By the time the moon was full again, he would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King’s Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him.”

Jon eventually finds a place with the men of the Watch, he makes friends and finds a role as a leader amongst the young trainees. However, even as he finds acceptance with some of the men on the Nights Watch, his status as a bastard is ever present, something he’s reminded about by one brother or another. Jon with time comes to accept his who he is:

“He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life— however long that might be— he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name.”

This realization, however, comes with the acceptance that he will forever be an outsider and there is nothing he believes he can do to change that. It’s a sad realization but a true one nonetheless. In the society that he has been brought up in and even with the men of the Night’s Watch, being a bastard is something you can never quite forget.

Next, he finds himself amongst the Wildings/Free Folk, these people, like the Dothraki, are somewhat nomadic, going from place to place trying to survive and keep away from the Wight Walkers. However, Jon finds comfort with some of them Tormound and of course Ygritte, he’s not judged for being a bastard (he’s judge more for being a man of the Watch), he’s judged by the man he is something he has not known much of. His time with the Wildings comes to a tragic end and he once again finds himself back in castle black.

“Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man’s horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow? He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes.”

As he is returning to Castle Black after escaping from the Wilding, Jon once again finds himself conflicted. He had found comfort with the Wildings, mostly because of Ygritte, but as he was once again heads towards where he should belong, inside him he knows that even if he should belong there, it does not feel like that to him.

Dany and Jon

Trying to find a place to belong when you’ve never really fitted it, can be very hard. as those old scars can take a long time to heal. There is an inner isolation already in Dany and Jon and even as they reach out to other people and try to make a home for themselves, they still haven't felt like they truly belong in the places they find themselves in. They have found acceptance in others and this is helpful and hopeful to them as they search for themselves and search for a place to belong to.

We will have a more in depth discussion of Dany and Jon’s leadership arc in the next essay but it's important to note that their time as leaders is also marked by isolation. They both feel for various reasons that they must keep their distance in order to be as fair -minded leaders.

The Black Dragon and The White Wolf

We had discussed the importance and strength of the dragonlord and warg bond in a previous essay, so we will focus here on the specific bond between Dany and Drogon and Jon and Ghost. Dany and Jon’s relationship with their animal familiar is very unique to them. From the moment they first sensed them to the end of Dance where each comes to a crosswords involving their animal familiar, their shared experience with each animal have guided them to where they find themselves now.

Let’s start at the beginning when Dany and Jon first sensed their animal familiars. For Dany it was a stranger experience because she did not know what was going on:

“There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud.

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …”

This dream occurred the night before her marriage to khal Drogo and of course before she received the dragon eggs as a gift. Yet, here we see her dreaming of a dragon, a dragon with molten eyes. As we know our old friend Drogon has been described as having molten eyes, in this dream Drogon appeared to her for the first time, perhaps as an introduction.

Jon sensed Ghost in a much more conventional way than Dany. After running into a litter of pups and distributing them amongst the Stark children, the group decides to head back to Winterfel when Jon suddenly hears something:

“Halfway across the bridge, Jon pulled up suddenly.

“What is it, Jon?” their lord father asked.

“Can’t you hear it?” Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else.

“There,” Jon said. He swung his horse around and galloped back across the bridge. They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them, smiling. “He must have crawled away from the others,” Jon said.

“Or been driven away,” their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning.

Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind. “An albino,” Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. “This one will die even faster than the others.” Jon Snow gave his father’s ward a long, chilling look. “I think not, Greyjoy,” he said. “This one belongs to me.”

It is interesting that Jon was able to hear Ghost, when we know that Ghost is a mute. But whatever bond Jon and Ghost share allowed him to sense him, to hear his call when no one else would have been able to. It’s also interesting to note that as Bran described Ghost was the only one in the liter to have his eyes opened, while Drogon was the only one of the eggs to come to Dany, to announce himself to her in her dreams.

As Dany and Jon continue to build their relationship to their animal familiars, they come to see them as more than companies, to them these familiars are part of them. For Jon:

“…the Old Bear’s raven peered down at him with shrewd black eyes. My last friend, Jon thought ruefully. And I had best outlive you, or you’ll eat my face as well. Ghost did not count. Ghost was closer than a friend. Ghost was part of him.”

Dany describes what it feels like to ride Drogon:

“A silver moon, almost close enough to touch. Rivers running bright and blue below, glimmering in the sun. Will I ever see such sights again? On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?”

Now, of course given the nature of each animal the bonding is different. Jon cannot ride Ghost and Dany cannot skin change Drogon, but nonetheless these animal familiars give each character a sense of wholeness. They feel like they are part of each other.

Throughout the series we have seen Drogon and Ghost being very protective of their masters. Two of the most memorable instances where Dany’s journey through the House of the Undying and when the Wight attacked Jon and Lord Commander Mormont. It was thanks to Ghost that Jon was able to defeat the Wight:

“Then he saw it, a shadow in the shadows, sliding toward the inner door that led to Mormont’s sleeping cell, a man-shape all in black, cloaked and hooded … but beneath the hood, its eyes shone with an icy blue radiance … Ghost leapt. Man and wolf went down together with neither scream nor snarl, rolling, smashing into a chair, knocking over a table laden with papers. Mormont’s raven was flapping overhead, screaming…”

For Dany, Drogon’s intervention was even more crucial as she had fallen under the spell of the Undying and it was Drogon’s who woke her and saved her:

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them …

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany’s gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting …

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. “

The interesting here is that both Drogon and Ghost saved Dany and Jon from cold, dead things. Perhaps the fact that both creatures are magical makes them even more acutely aware of these magical threads.

Drogon and Ghost have also played important roles in helping their familiars find their way when they have felt lost. It was Drogon who appeared to Dany in Daznak’s pit after she had decided to remove her “floppy ears” and during her time in the Dothraki sea it was him who stood guard over her while she re-discovered who she was and what was her purpose. For Jon, it was Ghost re-appearance that reminded him of his purpose to the Wall and of his oath, seeing him again gave him the answers he was searching for:

“Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. He had his answer then.”

This also ties in with the importance of the protection each familiar offers their master. For Drogon his appearance in Daznak’s might have also saved Dany’s life. Dany was able to capture and chain her other two dragons but she was never able to capture or chain up Drogon. In comparison Melissandre warns Jon to keep Ghost near him and she sees “daggers in the dark”. Jon, however, does not head her advice and leaves Ghost behind, locking him inside when he is assaulted by men of the Nights Watch. As we suspect, however, Ghost will be able to at least protect Jon’s mind as it seems that at the end of Dance Jon warns into Ghost, so his familiar is till offering him protection.

Curious enough and I’m unsure of the significance of this, but neither Dany nor Jon have had romantic relationship while their animal familiars where with them. When Dany was with Drogon the dragons were still eggs and although she flirted with Daario while Drogon was still around it was not until his escape that she began her relationship with Daario. Likewise, Jon did not begin his relationship with Ygritte until he had send Ghost away and although there has been flirtation with Mel and Val while Ghost has been around, the relationship(s) have gone no further at this moment.

While both Dany and Jon are apart from their familiars they strangely express the same centimeter for different reasons:

“Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.”

“Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone.”

We can see the importance of these relationship for both Dany and Jon. Not only are these familiars part of them but they are also their guardians and protectors. These animals were most likely sent to them to help Dany and Jon them from what was coming, and it’s important for both them to understand and maintain these bonds as it seem the closer we get to winter the more these familiars will be needed.

Conclusion

Dany and Jon started their lives much the same way, on the run, and although their lives have versed into completely different directions those early years still mark the people who they became. Throughout their journey the feeling of being an outsider and the need to belong (to be part of something) is still very strong for these two young heroes. They have taken completely different path yet continue to share many parallels throughout each stage. As we explore their arcs further we will continue to see the multitude of parallel shared by Dany and Jon.

[Kyoshi]

My posts keep getting swallowed so I had to summarise and my thoughts may seem incoherent :tantrum:Sorry.

Hey all - while we wait for next week's essay, BearWueen87 and I wrote an essay together a while back on Dany's role as a mother and a dragon. It's not a parallel with another character, however, it does deal with the theme of duality.

Hope you enjoy it!

Daenerys Targaryen: Mother and Dragon

Introduction

“I am the queen…the…the…”

“….mother,” whispered Missandei

“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered

“No. Mother to us all.”

Thank you for this, while reading for the Dany-Sansa analysis, I came across several things I also wanted to explore and I'm glad you did it so wonderfully.

Something that's always gnawed at my thoughts is Dany's pregnancy. Targaryens have been trying to breed dragons for centuries I think, each of them failing tragically. But Dany, who admits even to herself in Clash that all she knows of dragons was told to her by her somewhat equally ignorant brother, is the one Targaryen out of a long line of Targaryens who succeeds. MoIaF, I think you and I have touched on this before--I think that her pregnancy might be the "ingredient" that made the difference. Consider this quote:

“There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud. Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covere“You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood.d with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid … … until the day of her wedding came at last.”

It seems like foreshadowing, but I think it also seems like a very specific instruction manual. When she steps in the pyre later on, she thinks that she always knew the way it was meant to be done, or something along those lines. Her dreams (especially the ones you quoted) seem to be leading her to that moment, and when one looks at it like that, it doesn't seem quite so crazy that she walked into the fire without internal thought. Furthermore, the quoted above evokes some imagery of pregnancy I think, which serves to strengthen my crazy theory of Rhaego as a necessary ingredient to successfully hatch the dragon eggs.

While still on the issue of Rhaego: I wonder if it was also necessary for her to actually love a child of her own in order to develop the empathy she has. Often, with most arguments, things descend in the direction of, "do you have children of your own, Mrs Smith?" If Mrs Smith should answer no, then whatever suggestion she makes to save the hostages will not be considered with as much weight as those of Dr Miller--who has three kids in primary school and one who died seven years ago. I don't quite know how to phrase it but I think Rhaego's conception and death were (very twisted) "necessary" events in her arc; they validate her motivations in a way.

In a nutshell: her state as mother seems to have played a larger role than may be apparent in hatching the dragons. And even if MMD had not interfered, Rhaego would still have died, in one or another. Hope it all makes sense.

Every reader reads a different book.

I have often been reminded of this statement when I have participated in things like book discussion groups. Frequently, when listening to some of my friends give their analysis of, say, Moby Dick, I have wondered, “Did these people read the same book that I did? Are there very different, thoroughly contrasting versions of Moby Dick?”

I get the same feeling on these forums when I read various posters talk about “Dragons plant no trees.” For the life of me, I do not see any need to make the saying of this phrase some sort of watershed event. Dany thinks all kinds of things out there on the Dothraki sea. I'm not convinced that "Dragons plant no trees" is any more important than "The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home." To begin with, Jorah comes up with the first phrase. Now, some maintain that "Jorah," in this case, is actually a projection of Dany's unconscious. Why should we take this assertion as a given? "Jonah" here could be a vision. The dragons that Daenerys dreamed of earlier weren't just projections of her unconscious. And the "dragon queen will now burn everything down" analysis doesn't consider the context. When Dany first becomes aware of Jorah, she calls him "my old sweet bear." Are we to believe that the old sweet bear is telling her to go on a rampage? That doesn't sound too sweet to me. Actually, the thrust of his comments is the claim that the queen should not have stayed in Meereen. She should have bypassed the place. "Dragons plant no trees," then, would now mean no more than "it's time to move on."

I don't deny that there will be all kinds of blood and death in the upcoming books. We don't need any "plant no trees" commentary to tell us that. The vast majority of the death and destruction coming to Essos may have been accomplished before the young queen returns to Meereen. Westeros has been bleeding for a long time. It will continue to do so. whatever Daenerys Targaryen does. I think that the "trees" business has been overworked and overanalyzed.

Agreed.

[Kyoshi]

Before posting I just want to say that this essay was extremely hard for me to write. (I'm not even going to talk about the next two!). I thought this topic would come easy to me as I've discussed these characters often, but it was not easy at all. I'm not quite satisfied with the essay, however, it should hopefully be discussion worthy.

Complimentary Counterparts

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & Jon Snow

Essay I: From the Outside Looking In

This was very good; quite a few things I hadn't noticed, like Jon and Dany not having romantic relationships while Drogon and Ghost were around.

I really like how you show that neither is truly whole: Dany has a name but not a home, while Jon has a home but not a name. And Jon's home is not a complete one since he doesn't really belong there. And Dany's name is not one she fully understands since the only blood family she has ever known was her brother. Their identities are so similar.

I found these two quotes quite poignant:

Dany:

“What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?” she asked him. “Home,” he said. His voice was thick with longing. “I pray for home too,” she told him, believing it. Ser Jorah laughed.

“Look around you then, Khaleesi.” But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born . In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window . In her mind’s eye , all the doors were red.”

Jon:

He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King’s Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces , the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here.

They can each articulate all these names and places they think hold something more than where they are, each wants that place far beyond, where the grass is greener and the taste is sweeter. When Jon is on the Wall he dreams of Winterfell, when he is beyond the Wall he dreams of the Wall. That dreams is always there, yet always out of reach, like Gatsby and the green light (it always recedes before him yet like a child, he keeps believing that tomorrow he will run faster, stretch out his arms farther, etc.) But then again, they both seem to realise that the dreams are flawed and somewhat unrealistic or childish [i'm struggling to find the perfect words to describe it].

Dany:

“Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door … was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?”

Jon:

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King’s Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him.”

This was brilliantly done, MoIaF.

[SeanF]

Another nice essay.

Without wishing this to become the Oppression Olympics, I think that Dany has had the tougher upbringing. She was abused by her brother, fled from city to city, and was forcibly wed to a man more than twice her age.

Jon has had an upbringing that's normal for a youth of noble birth in Westeros, and privileged by comparison with the average bastard. A cold relationship with Lady Catelyn doesn't really compare with what Dany's been through.

One small correction is that Drogon was present the first time that Dany had sex with Irri.

[Seams]

The Black Dragon and The White Wolf

We had discussed the importance and strength of the dragonlord and warg bond in a previous essay, so we will focus here on the specific bond between Dany and Drogon and Jon and Ghost. Dany and Jons relationship with their animal familiar is very unique to them. From the moment they first sensed them to the end of Dance where each comes to a crosswords involving their animal familiar, their shared experience with each animal have guided them to where they find themselves now.

Lets start at the beginning when Dany and Jon first sensed their animal familiars. For Dany it was a stranger experience because she did not know what was going on:

Something that's always gnawed at my thoughts is Dany's pregnancy. Targaryens have been trying to breed dragons for centuries I think, each of them failing tragically. But Dany, who admits even to herself in Clash that all she knows of dragons was told to her by her somewhat equally ignorant brother, is the one Targaryen out of a long line of Targaryens who succeeds. MoIaF, I think you and I have touched on this before--I think that her pregnancy might be the "ingredient" that made the difference. Consider this quote:

... my crazy theory of Rhaego as a necessary ingredient to successfully hatch the dragon eggs.

I expect this has already been hashed out on other threads, but I would be interested in more discussion of the blood sacrifices involved in the births of the direwolves and the dragons. I expect the similar circumstances are part of Jon and Dany's story arcs, although the litter of wolf pups was obviously common among all the Stark children.

Kyoshi, your idea of the "sacrifice" of the baby - specifically - as necessary to the hatching of the dragons is very intriguing. I had been operating on the assumption that Khal Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur and the baby (as well as the stallion) were necessary to unleashing the magic of the burning pyre that allows the dragon eggs to hatch. Their deaths also contribute the qualities that go into making Dany a Khaleesi, a maegi (of sorts) and the stallion that mounts the world. I suppose the death of Viserys might also have been a necessary part of the sacrifice that allows Dany to become the last dragon and/or to hatch the dragon eggs (and might have something to do with Drogon's "molten" eyes). But maybe you are onto something about the specific nature of the death of Dany's child: it's not just one ingredient among several that enriches Dany's spirit, it is a unique sacrifice that creates the bond between Dany and her dragon(s). Maybe this needs to be considered alongsside MoIaF's good observation that Jon and his wolf and Dany and her dragon are separated when the two humans have romantic relationships - just as they cannot bond with other humans when their animal familiars are nearby, Jon and Dany also must sacrifice the possibility of having children in order to complete the bond with their animal soulmates.

Many people have pointed out that Jon, Dany and Tyrion's mothers all died in childbirth, and that they share this bloody beginning and it is part of what marks these characters as special and important. If the death of Rhaego was necessary for the hatching of the dragons, is there a parallel sacrifice in Jon's story? Is his Night's Watch vow to forgo fathering children the equivalent of the death of Dany's baby? It doesn't seem like a sacrifice on the same scale. Is the death of the mother direwolf, with the antler in her neck, the equivalent sacrifice? Could be, although that takes us back to the mother dying in childbirth image, instead of the child dying to empower the animal/mother. Also there is only one mother wolf, and six wolf puppies. Doesn't seem like the same scale of sacrifice, again, as Dany's grand pyre of death. And Mirri Maz Duur tells us that only death can pay for life so it seems as if there would have to be more deaths to account for the lives of the six pups.

Maybe the "lives" of the six direwolves don't count until someone has warged into them? In which case Lady and Grey Wind seem to have died before they could be activated. There is plenty of death in Arya's arc to account for her ability to warg into Nymeria in her dreams. And I suppose Bran and Jon also experience death and sacrifice by their own hands or by people near to them. But I still want to try to figure out whether there is supposed to be a match or similar "formula" of sacrifice for the lives of the magical wolves to go with the sacrifice that brings Dany's dragons to life.

Does Ned's execution of the Night's Watch deserter count as the (or a) blood sacrifice that leads to the "hatching" of the direwolves? The two events are closely related in time and place. The execution of Gared is by Ned's hand, not Jon's - does that matter in the direwolf magic? Gared was obviously of the Night's Watch (a wise and experienced ranger) and that is important to Jon's future, so maybe this goes back to the idea that the death of the Khal is an ingredient in making Dany the Great Khaleesi, etc.

Here's a weird thought: If the death of a child was necessary to Jon and Ghost's development just as the death of Rhaego was necessary for Dany and Drogo to grow and bond, what if the attempt on Bran's life was someone's effort to sacrifice a child in order to unleash some magic necessary to Jon's growth as a magical leader? Hard to make a case, since it's not 100% clear who arranged for the hit on Bran. Or maybe the threat to Dalla's baby is the Rhaego equivalent in Jon's story arc. Just thinking out loud here.

Another possible direction: Does Jon's bond with Ghost strengthen and change after Robb Stark dies? Maybe his life is the sacrifice needed to take Jon's bond with Ghost to the next level.

In response to earlier essays on this thread we have discussed Dany's rebirths. Maybe the literal death of her baby is linked to the rebirth imagery in her own life, and maybe the parallels with Jon's arc will become more apparent when we find out what happens to him after the attack by the Night's Watch men at the end of ADWD. I assume there will be a rebirth for him. Perhaps one of the quotes singled out in MoIaF's good essay foreshadows what will come next:

"An albino," Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. "This one will die even faster than the others." Jon Snow gave his fathers ward a long, chilling look. "I think not, Greyjoy," he said. "This one belongs to me."

[MoIaF]

My posts keep getting swallowed so I had to summarise and my thoughts may seem incoherent :tantrum:Sorry.

Thank you for this, while reading for the Dany-Sansa analysis, I came across several things I also wanted to explore and I'm glad you did it so wonderfully.

Something that's always gnawed at my thoughts is Dany's pregnancy. Targaryens have been trying to breed dragons for centuries I think, each of them failing tragically. But Dany, who admits even to herself in Clash that all she knows of dragons was told to her by her somewhat equally ignorant brother, is the one Targaryen out of a long line of Targaryens who succeeds. MoIaF, I think you and I have touched on this before--I think that her pregnancy might be the "ingredient" that made the difference. Consider this quote:

It seems like foreshadowing, but I think it also seems like a very specific instruction manual. When she steps in the pyre later on, she thinks that she always knew the way it was meant to be done, or something along those lines. Her dreams (especially the ones you quoted) seem to be leading her to that moment, and when one looks at it like that, it doesn't seem quite so crazy that she walked into the fire without internal thought. Furthermore, the quoted above evokes some imagery of pregnancy I think, which serves to strengthen my crazy theory of Rhaego as a necessary ingredient to successfully hatch the dragon eggs.

While still on the issue of Rhaego: I wonder if it was also necessary for her to actually love a child of her own in order to develop the empathy she has. Often, with most arguments, things descend in the direction of, "do you have children of your own, Mrs Smith?" If Mrs Smith should answer no, then whatever suggestion she makes to save the hostages will not be considered with as much weight as those of Dr Miller--who has three kids in primary school and one who died seven years ago. I don't quite know how to phrase it but I think Rhaego's conception and death were (very twisted) "necessary" events in her arc; they validate her motivations in a way.

In a nutshell: her state as mother seems to have played a larger role than may be apparent in hatching the dragons. And even if MMD had not interfered, Rhaego would still have died, in one or another. Hope it all makes sense.

As we have discussed throughout the re-reads, Dany's identity as a mother is so integral to her character. There is another scene earlier than the one you quoted where she is holding the green egg after having an argument with VIserys and as she holds it she thinks to herself that her son is the real dragon and that the dragon egg is his brother.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

Now that I see the quote, there is the ominous blood to blood phrase.

This was very good; quite a few things I hadn't noticed, like Jon and Dany not having romantic relationships while Drogon and Ghost were around.

I really like how you show that neither is truly whole: Dany has a name but not a home, while Jon has a home but not a name. And Jon's home is not a complete one since he doesn't really belong there. And Dany's name is not one she fully understands since the only blood family she has ever known was her brother. Their identities are so similar.

That's what I was trying to get across, and will continue to try in future essays, that no matter how different Dany and Jon seem, they are a lot alike. It's not only their shared experiences and story parallels but they do feel similarly about certain important things.

I found these two quotes quite poignant:

Dany:

“What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?” she asked him. “Home,” he said. His voice was thick with longing. “I pray for home too,” she told him, believing it. Ser Jorah laughed.

“Look around you then, Khaleesi.” But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born . In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window . In her mind’s eye , all the doors were red.”

Jon:

He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King’s Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces , the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here.

They can each articulate all these names and places they think hold something more than where they are, each wants that place far beyond, where the grass is greener and the taste is sweeter. When Jon is on the Wall he dreams of Winterfell, when he is beyond the Wall he dreams of the Wall. That dreams is always there, yet always out of reach, like Gatsby and the green light (it always recedes before him yet like a child, he keeps believing that tomorrow he will run faster, stretch out his arms farther, etc.) But then again, they both seem to realise that the dreams are flawed and somewhat unrealistic or childish [i'm struggling to find the perfect words to describe it].

Dany:

“Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door … was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?”

Jon:

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King’s Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him.”

I've come to believe that they will realize that home is not just a place (stationary) but something deeper. As they continue to develop their identities home will be a place or person or whatever that they feel comfortable with, that they feel they can be themselves. Or something like that....

This was brilliantly done, MoIaF.

Gracias! :D

Another nice essay.

Thank you!

Without wishing this to become the Oppression Olympics, I think that Dany has had the tougher upbringing. She was abused by her brother, fled from city to city, and was forcibly wed to a man more than twice her age.

Jon has had an upbringing that's normal for a youth of noble birth in Westeros, and privileged by comparison with the average bastard. A cold relationship with Lady Catelyn doesn't really compare with what Dany's been through.

It's true, Dany's life has been rough. It amazes me when posters say that Dany has had it easy, very few things have come to Dany easily. Jon had it tough, having Catelyn dislike him but everyone else loved him and she just ignored him, she wasn't actively mean to him.

One small correction is that Drogon was present the first time that Dany had sex with Irri.

Well, I was talking about romantic relationships (intimate bonds with other people), but frankly I think what Dany and Irri can barely be considered sex. Irri masturbated her, it wasn't even an exchange between the two (did they even kiss?). But some may think differently.

[MoIaF]

I expect this has already been hashed out on other threads, but I would be interested in more discussion of the blood sacrifices involved in the births of the direwolves and the dragons. I expect the similar circumstances are part of Jon and Dany's story arcs, although the litter of wolf pups was obviously common among all the Stark children.

Kyoshi, your idea of the "sacrifice" of the baby - specifically - as necessary to the hatching of the dragons is very intriguing. I had been operating on the assumption that Khal Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur and the baby (as well as the stallion) were necessary to unleashing the magic of the burning pyre that allows the dragon eggs to hatch. Their deaths also contribute the qualities that go into making Dany a Khaleesi, a maegi (of sorts) and the stallion that mounts the world. I suppose the death of Viserys might also have been a necessary part of the sacrifice that allows Dany to become the last dragon and/or to hatch the dragon eggs (and might have something to do with Drogon's "molten" eyes). But maybe you are onto something about the specific nature of the death of Dany's child: it's not just one ingredient among several that enriches Dany's spirit, it is a unique sacrifice that creates the bond between Dany and her dragon(s). Maybe this needs to be considered alongsside MoIaF's good observation that Jon and his wolf and Dany and her dragon are separated when the two humans have romantic relationships - just as they cannot bond with other humans when their animal familiars are nearby, Jon and Dany also must sacrifice the possibility of having children in order to complete the bond with their animal soulmates.

Many people have pointed out that Jon, Dany and Tyrion's mothers all died in childbirth, and that they share this bloody beginning and it is part of what marks these characters as special and important. If the death of Rhaego was necessary for the hatching of the dragons, is there a parallel sacrifice in Jon's story? Is his Night's Watch vow to forgo fathering children the equivalent of the death of Dany's baby? It doesn't seem like a sacrifice on the same scale. Is the death of the mother direwolf, with the antler in her neck, the equivalent sacrifice? Could be, although that takes us back to the mother dying in childbirth image, instead of the child dying to empower the animal/mother. Also there is only one mother wolf, and six wolf puppies. Doesn't seem like the same scale of sacrifice, again, as Dany's grand pyre of death. And Mirri Maz Duur tells us that only death can pay for life so it seems as if there would have to be more deaths to account for the lives of the six pups.

Maybe the "lives" of the six direwolves don't count until someone has warged into them? In which case Lady and Grey Wind seem to have died before they could be activated. There is plenty of death in Arya's arc to account for her ability to warg into Nymeria in her dreams. And I suppose Bran and Jon also experience death and sacrifice by their own hands or by people near to them. But I still want to try to figure out whether there is supposed to be a match or similar "formula" of sacrifice for the lives of the magical wolves to go with the sacrifice that brings Dany's dragons to life.

Does Ned's execution of the Night's Watch deserter count as the (or a) blood sacrifice that leads to the "hatching" of the direwolves? The two events are closely related in time and place. The execution of Gared is by Ned's hand, not Jon's - does that matter in the direwolf magic? Gared was obviously of the Night's Watch (a wise and experienced ranger) and that is important to Jon's future, so maybe this goes back to the idea that the death of the Khal is an ingredient in making Dany the Great Khaleesi, etc.

Here's a weird thought: If the death of a child was necessary to Jon and Ghost's development just as the death of Rhaego was necessary for Dany and Drogo to grow and bond, what if the attempt on Bran's life was someone's effort to sacrifice a child in order to unleash some magic necessary to Jon's growth as a magical leader? Hard to make a case, since it's not 100% clear who arranged for the hit on Bran. Or maybe the threat to Dalla's baby is the Rhaego equivalent in Jon's story arc. Just thinking out loud here.

Another possible direction: Does Jon's bond with Ghost strengthen and change after Robb Stark dies? Maybe his life is the sacrifice needed to take Jon's bond with Ghost to the next level.

In response to earlier essays on this thread we have discussed Dany's rebirths. Maybe the literal death of her baby is linked to the rebirth imagery in her own life, and maybe the parallels with Jon's arc will become more apparent when we find out what happens to him after the attack by the Night's Watch men at the end of ADWD. I assume there will be a rebirth for him. Perhaps one of the quotes singled out in MoIaF's good essay foreshadows what will come next:

Just a quick note on something I've mentioned before.

In Dany's last chapter in ADWD we find out that she's lost her hair from the fumes Drogon blew at her in Daznak's pit. We also learn that Dany appears to have a miscarriage, also, during her delirium she forgets Hazzea's name. This all happens before Dany comes to embrace her inner dragon and her role as the Mother of Dragons.

So, there are three things present/in common when Dany hatches the dragons and when she embraces the dragons . The lost of a child, forgetting the name of a child (Rhaego & Hazzea) and the lost of her hair. There is obviously an element of rebirth in both these instances.

I think that it is important that Dany inadvertently sacrificed two of her children for her dragons. Is as if she can't be the Mother of Dragons if she's an actual mother. Which I believe in the end she will choose a natural child over her dragons. But that's for a different discussion.

In regards to Jon, he has sacrificed family and fatherhood for the watch, but it has been at an abstract level. He gave up the right to have those things, he didn't actually lose them per se, not the way Dany has literally lost her natural children.

Like you say perhaps we'll know more of this sacrifice after TWOW and Jon spends time inside of Ghost. It's almost certain to me that a part of himself will be sacrificed because of the time he will have to spend with Ghost. So perhaps he'll lose part of his humanity, which is a big deal.

[BearQueen87]

Before posting I just want to say that this essay was extremely hard for me to write. (I'm not even going to talk about the next two!). I thought this topic would come easy to me as I've discussed these characters often, but it was not easy at all. I'm not quite satisfied with the essay, however, it should hopefully be discussion worthy.

Complimentary Counterparts

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & Jon Snow

Essay I: From the Outside Looking In

Excellent job MOIAF! Really, great read

She was born in the West and smuggled East. He was born in the South and smuggled North. Both infants whisked away from the common threat that almost decimated their entire family, Robert’s Rebellion. Had they not been taken away they themselves would surely have been victims as well of this war. A harrowing start to life for both Dany and Jon, taken away from their place of birth neither of them has ever truly belonged anywhere ever since.

I think most of us here agree on who Jon's parents are, so I'll point out that both Dany and Jon are the cause (their birth at least) of their mother's death. But whereas Dany's only living relative that she knows of--Viserys--hates her for it, Jon's uncle Ned embraces Jon as a son.

As we see Dany has been spirited away since conception, first her mother runs from King’s Landing before the rebels sack it and then she is take away from Dragonstone before the rebels reach it. So started her life, living on the run, never stopping for too long should the hired knives catch them. This can be very hard on a child, never knowing the comfort of home and family, the stability that is necessary to feel cared for and safe. Running from one place to the next never setting down roots, it's no wonder why she yearns so much for the House with the Red Door.

As in real life, children need stability. This isn't to say that their life needs to be static but when sweeping changes--like moving around--do happen it's important that there is some stable part of their life, like a parent. Dany had no parent and no home. Her whole life is one of instability. The Dothraki provide some semblance of stability, though. They may be migratory but Drogo and Jorah provide her an element of stability.

Jon of course, unlike Dany, did not have to flee any further. In Winterfell he had a home and family that cared for him. However, he never quite felt like he fit in, both being a bastard and being unwanted by his “father’s” wife Catelyn made Jon feel like he did not quite belong.

Jon's instability is more an emotional instability (this isn't to say that Dany's isn't emotional, naturally it is but Jon at least has "roots" in WF). He might be located in one place but he is dislocated internally. He knows he doesn't belong in WF because he isn't a Stark.

It wasn’t an easy start to life for either character. Loosing most of their families as infants that shadow has followed them overtly and obscurely throughout their lives. And while Dany knows what happen, Jon is still in the shadows, yet it has affected them both in many similar ways. As we will continue to discuss, due to these circumstances both grew up feeling like outsiders, never quite fitting in or feeling like they belonged.

Not only do Jon and Dany not know their parents, they've made up versions of their lost family in their heads. Dany asks Selmy (when he is still Whitebeard) if he found King Aerys to be good and kind and gentle; until the end of ASOS and then in ADWD, Dany prefers the stories Viserys has told her--believing that her father was a good king and a good man. Because Ned never tells Jon anything about his mother (understandable given who it is) Jon likes to think of her as a high born lady with kind eyes. Both Jon and Dany fill in the blanks themselves because no one in their immediate presence will them otherwise. Even Jorah doesn't try to tell Dany about who Aerys really was.

All she wants is to be free to play with other children, to not have the responsibility of helping to restore her family’s crown upon her young shoulder. Having never truly had a childhood, all she wanted to do is to be a child

Yes, and both Dany and Jon had to grow up a lot faster than they would have liked due to circumstance--Dany because of her status as exiled princess and Jon because of his bastard status. There's are a lot of children in ASOIAF who have to grow up faster than the they would like (Arya, Sansa, Bran...ok, every child has to grow up faster in this series, don't they?)

“If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.”

It's interesting. If Dany chose to forget, she could be very happy with the Dothraki. It begs the question, is it Westeros she really wants or the fantasy she's built in her head about what home is. In her head, it is unquestionably Westeros yet she finds that she could easily forget that dream if she let herself. She won't forget out of obligation, out of duty, out of loyalty to her family and dead brother. It's almost nothing to do with her and everything to do with everyone else. Put in that light...it adds a layer of tragedy to Dany's quest for home.

“Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.”

Once again there is the realization that she does not belong, and will once again have to leave to find her way.

Yeah, Meereen and by extension all of Slaver's Bay will never be her home. Dany is a new sort of creature--one born amongst fire and smoke and blood--but born anew to recharge and reshape the world. Mereen and Slaver's Bay is too "old;" it's entrenched in its old ways and could never be Dany's home. Even when she decides to stay, she finds herself looking for that red door as she says goodbye to Jorah.

Jon had a place to call home but no name. Having a home, however, did not mean that Jon felt like he belonged. Even surrounded by a father who loved him and brothers and sisters that cared for him, he always felt like a misfit, an outcast, an outsider. The fact that he was a bastard and not a legitimate member of his family is something that is always present in his mind that although he had Stark blood he was not a true Stark.

I think for Jon it's the difference between a house and a home. A house is a building; any building could be a potential house. But a home is a feeling, an emotion. A log tree could be a home if you filled it with love and friends and family. Jon has some of that at WF but it's always second to his feelings of loneliness and the constant reminders that he's a bastard.

“Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man’s horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow? He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes.”

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. He's been amongst the Wildlings and found a real home--one where there was love and friends and family. Someplace he could belong. Even at Castle Black he often found himself an outsider, by virtue of his skills.

Curious enough and I’m unsure of the significance of this, but neither Dany nor Jon have had romantic relationship while their animal familiars where with them. When Dany was with Drogon the dragons were still eggs and although she flirted with Daario while Drogon was still around it was not until his escape that she began her relationship with Daario. Likewise, Jon did not begin his relationship with Ygritte until he had send Ghost away and although there has been flirtation with Mel and Val while Ghost has been around, the relationship(s) have gone no further at this moment.

Hm. Interesting. It's definitely something since we have a direct link to Daenerys and sex and Drogon--the first time she masturbates aboard the ship, Drogon screams as she climaxes. And of course her mounting of Drogon in the Pit is heavily sexualized. I think it has to do with completeness. With Drogon, Dany is whole. With Ghost, Jon is whole. Without their dragon and wolf, there is room in their hearts and lives for someone else because suddenly they aren't whole.

Nice job once again!

Another nice essay.

Without wishing this to become the Oppression Olympics, I think that Dany has had the tougher upbringing. She was abused by her brother, fled from city to city, and was forcibly wed to a man more than twice her age.

Jon has had an upbringing that's normal for a youth of noble birth in Westeros, and privileged by comparison with the average bastard. A cold relationship with Lady Catelyn doesn't really compare with what Dany's been through.

I agree with that. Dany's upbringing was unstable both emotionally and in terms of her home; Jon at least had a home and Arya and Ned and Bran.

I've come to believe that they will realize that home is not just a place (stationary) but something deeper. As they continue to develop their identities home will be a place or person or whatever that they feel comfortable with, that they feel they can be themselves. Or something like that....

Absolutely. Home is finding their place in the world--whatever that might entail. It could be king or queen; it could be the Wall or the Grass Sea. It could be another person. It could be no one.

[RoamingRonin]

Yes exactly. Dany's "dragons plant no trees" line isn't her totally turning away from EVER planting trees; it's that right here, right now, in this time and place and situation (the cesspool that is Slaver's Bay) planting trees isn't working because, to take the metaphor further, the soil is rotted and the trees can't survive. You can't expect a harvest on rotted ground. This isn't to say that Dany's mind set in all things after Slaver's Bay is going to be "burn them all!" for the rest of her journey, but rather that she's learned a lesson: sometimes in order to grow something new, you have to destroy the old. People who argue that Dany's mindset is now solely fire and blood seem to think that characters in ASOIAF are static, as if they don't learn from their mistakes and from their good calls.

Preach.

[Seams]

... I suppose the death of Viserys might also have been a necessary part of the sacrifice that allows Dany to become the last dragon and/or to hatch the dragon eggs (and might have something to do with Drogon's "molten" eyes). But maybe you are onto something about the specific nature of the death of Dany's child: it's not just one ingredient among several that enriches Dany's spirit, it is a unique sacrifice that creates the bond between Dany and her dragon(s).

Maybe the "lives" of the six direwolves don't count until someone has warged into them? In which case Lady and Grey Wind seem to have died before they could be activated.

Maybe we need to draw a distinction between "waking" the dragon and "hatching" the dragons. The equivalent with the direwolves could be that difference between the warging and whelping of the pups.

Viserys is constantly warning Dany not to wake the dragon, presuming that he is the dragon. Dany dreams about the waking of the dragon, and feels life stirring within the eggs, before the eggs hatch. Does this "waking" occur after the death of Viserys? Or after Dany eats the stallion's heart?

Now I'm also wondering whether the deaths that "pay for" the lives of the direwolves included the deaths in the opening chapter of the first book - Ser Waymar Royce and Will. Jon has the special bond with Ghost, hearing the pup's silent voice, almost immediately. But when does he first begin to feel the ability to see through Ghost's eyes? Is it after he witnesses Craster leave a baby for a White Walker? Would this be the equivalent of the sacrifice of Dany's baby Rhaego?

If GRRM is drawing a distinction between waking/hatching and warging/whelping, does this help to explain why characters like Dany seem to have more than one rebirth? She is reborn after the burning funeral pyre, and seems on track to be reborn again on her walk back from the new Dragon Stone where she flew with Drogon. This notion might also be consistent with Maester Aemon's advice to Jon about killing the boy so the man can be born.

[MoIaF]

Excellent job MOIAF! Really, great read

Thank you! Much appreciated. :cheers:

As in real life, children need stability. This isn't to say that their life needs to be static but when sweeping changes--like moving around--do happen it's important that there is some stable part of their life, like a parent. Dany had no parent and no home. Her whole life is one of instability. The Dothraki provide some semblance of stability, though. They may be migratory but Drogo and Jorah provide her an element of stability.

True. And for a time she feel like she belongs or better she has found a place where she is welcomed and accepted, something she knows very little of. As someone who has been living on the kindness of strangers for almost her entire life, being welcomed and accepted is not something they're accustomed. Especially as we know how observant Dany is, she picks up on the anterior motives of these strangers, she's not filled the way her brother is.

Not only do Jon and Dany not know their parents, they've made up versions of their lost family in their heads. Dany asks Selmy (when he is still Whitebeard) if he found King Aerys to be good and kind and gentle; until the end of ASOS and then in ADWD, Dany prefers the stories Viserys has told her--believing that her father was a good king and a good man. Because Ned never tells Jon anything about his mother (understandable given who it is) Jon likes to think of her as a high born lady with kind eyes. Both Jon and Dany fill in the blanks themselves because no one in their immediate presence will them otherwise. Even Jorah doesn't try to tell Dany about who Aerys really was.

This is very typical of children who are abused or neglected, they make up versions of their lives where they believe themselves adopted and their real parents will come back one day to take them home. This is particularly true for Dany in the sense that she's been both abused and neglected (not thought of as important or a person in her own right). For Jon it's a bit different, it's the emotional emptiness of never having known his mother, of craving that love and care he never had.

Yes, and both Dany and Jon had to grow up a lot faster than they would have liked due to circumstance--Dany because of her status as exiled princess and Jon because of his bastard status. There's are a lot of children in ASOIAF who have to grow up faster than the they would like (Arya, Sansa, Bran...ok, every child has to grow up faster in this series, don't they?)

I know that GRRM prides himself on being realistic but his world is a lot more dreary and bleak than it ever was in real life. as you say, almost all the children in ASOIAF have had to grow up a lot faster than normal or have had to experience unspeakable things. In real life there was reprieve for some , so while some may suffer others did not.

It's interesting. If Dany chose to forget, she could be very happy with the Dothraki. It begs the question, is it Westeros she really wants or the fantasy she's built in her head about what home is. In her head, it is unquestionably Westeros yet she finds that she could easily forget that dream if she let herself. She won't forget out of obligation, out of duty, out of loyalty to her family and dead brother. It's almost nothing to do with her and everything to do with everyone else. Put in that light...it adds a layer of tragedy to Dany's quest for home.

We've discussed this before and it's an extremely complicated issue. She probably could forget for a time and let herself enjoy her life with the Dothraki but I think with time she'd come to regret it. Dany has a deep sense of loyalty towards her family and her house. She takes it very seriously that she's the last Targaryen and it is her duty to uphold her house. I think Dany more than any other character has a deep sense of purpose. She understands that she can't just live the life of a "normal" person, that she has duties and responsibilities well beyond those of most anyone else.

I think for Jon it's the difference between a house and a home. A house is a building; any building could be a potential house. But a home is a feeling, an emotion. A log tree could be a home if you filled it with love and friends and family. Jon has some of that at WF but it's always second to his feelings of loneliness and the constant reminders that he's a bastard.

Indeed! That's an important distinction to make.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe we need to draw a distinction between "waking" the dragon and "hatching" the dragons. The equivalent with the direwolves could be that difference between the warging and whelping of the pups.

Viserys is constantly warning Dany not to wake the dragon, presuming that he is the dragon. Dany dreams about the waking of the dragon, and feels life stirring within the eggs, before the eggs hatch. Does this "waking" occur after the death of Viserys? Or after Dany eats the stallion's heart?

Now I'm also wondering whether the deaths that "pay for" the lives of the direwolves included the deaths in the opening chapter of the first book - Ser Waymar Royce and Will. Jon has the special bond with Ghost, hearing the pup's silent voice, almost immediately. But when does he first begin to feel the ability to see through Ghost's eyes? Is it after he witnesses Craster leave a baby for a White Walker? Would this be the equivalent of the sacrifice of Dany's baby Rhaego?

If GRRM is drawing a distinction between waking/hatching and warging/whelping, does this help to explain why characters like Dany seem to have more than one rebirth? She is reborn after the burning funeral pyre, and seems on track to be reborn again on her walk back from the new Dragon Stone where she flew with Drogon. This notion might also be consistent with Maester Aemon's advice to Jon about killing the boy so the man can be born.

I read these paragraphs like 5x trying to come up with a viable answer for you. I can't so instead I'll just throw some things out into the universe and see what comes back.

1) The eggs get progressively warmer as the story moves on, and more to the point, as Dany becomes more and more self-assured as Khaleesi. I think that is largely because Viserys is not actually a dragon (like Jorah points out) but Dany is. She's really the last dragon and as her own dragon nature beings to emerge, so too the eggs begin to become un-stone. But there is still an element needed which leads us to:

2) The first time (I believe) she feels something stir inside the eggs is after she's lost Rhaego and has emerged from her fever dream and Jorah finds her standing over the eggs, touching them. That's the first time Dany feels something stir inside. So, if there was a sacrifice needed, then it was Rhaego, not Viserys. It's as if Rhaego's life force went into the dragon eggs (with Drogon perhaps getting the lion's share given the black dragon's relationship with Dany). At that point, after Rhaego has died, the eggs are quickened and they just need fire to hatch.

So if this were a math formula then Dany's growing power and self-confidence as the Last Dragon + Rhaego's spirit/essence + Fire of Pyre + Dany's own unique brand of "whatever" magic (since GRRM said she more or less makes it up as she goes along, miracle style = dragons.

You can't have dragons without having all those elements. At least not now in Planetos given the state of magic.

We've discussed this before and it's an extremely complicated issue. She probably could forget for a time and let herself enjoy her life with the Dothraki but I think with time she'd come to regret it. Dany has a deep sense of loyalty towards her family and her house. She takes it very seriously that she's the last Targaryen and it is her duty to uphold her house. I think Dany more than any other character has a deep sense of purpose. She understands that she can't just live the life of a "normal" person, that she has duties and responsibilities well beyond those of most anyone else.

Discussed many times :) and I agree it's exceedingly complicated. One of the themes at play with ASOIAF is duty vs love and it plays out a lot in Jon and Dany. Dany chooses to marry Hizzy out of her Queenly duty to Meereen and freedom, even though she's in lust love with another guy, Daario. Jon chooses to stay at the NW even when he hears that Robb is King and Ned is dead. With that in mind, I can't see Dany going to pursue her own desires (because when has she ever, really?) over what she feels is her own duty to Westeros, whatever role that ends up being.

[SeanF]

I read these paragraphs like 5x trying to come up with a viable answer for you. I can't so instead I'll just throw some things out into the universe and see what comes back.

1) The eggs get progressively warmer as the story moves on, and more to the point, as Dany becomes more and more self-assured as Khaleesi. I think that is largely because Viserys is not actually a dragon (like Jorah points out) but Dany is. She's really the last dragon and as her own dragon nature beings to emerge, so too the eggs begin to become un-stone. But there is still an element needed which leads us to:

2) The first time (I believe) she feels something stir inside the eggs is after she's lost Rhaego and has emerged from her fever dream and Jorah finds her standing over the eggs, touching them. That's the first

time Dany feels something stir inside. So, if there was a sacrifice needed, then it was Rhaego, not Viserys. It's as if Rhaego's life force went into the dragon eggs (with Drogon perhaps getting the lion's share given the black dragon's relationship with Dany). At that point, after Rhaego has died, the eggs are quickened and they just need fire to hatch.

So if this were a math formula then Dany's growing power and self-confidence as the Last Dragon + Rhaego's spirit/essence + Fire of Pyre + Dany's own unique brand of "whatever" magic (since GRRM said she more or less makes it up as she goes along, miracle style = dragons.

You can't have dragons without having all those elements. At least not now in Planetos given the state of magic.

Discussed many times :) and I agree it's exceedingly complicated. One of the themes at play with ASOIAF is duty vs love and it plays out a lot in Jon and Dany. Dany chooses to marry Hizzy out of her Queenly duty to Meereen and freedom, even though she's in lust love with another guy, Daario. Jon chooses to stay at the NW even when he hears that Robb is King and Ned is dead. With that in mind, I can't see Dany going to

pursue her own desires (because when has she ever, really?) over what she feels is her own duty to Westeros, whatever role that ends up being.

I don't think retiring into private life has been an option since the dragons were hatched.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think retiring into private life has been an option since the dragons were hatched.

Because having three dragons is rather conspicuous? Sure lol. But what happens if they all die?

[MoIaF]

Hello folks!

Essay will be up by tomorrow evening. Sorry for any inconvenience.