The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[SeanF]

Thanks for the three essays. They've been worth reading.

I don't doubt that Ned strongly disapproved of the death of Mycah (the last quote proves it) and would never have sanctioned it if he had been the judge. But, it's not his place to question the judgement of his King (although he will eventually come to do so).

It's why I think Dany will be much less bothered if and when she learns of the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark than a lot of readers suppose. She might well have acted differently in Aerys' place, but subjects who threaten the Crown Prince have no right to expect mercy. Mercy is a gift from the King, not an

entitlement. (as an aside, I don't doubt she'd burn the Kingslayer alive if she captured him). Historically, lese majeste was considered the most horrible of crimes, with suitably horrific punishments for those who were guilty of it.

It's an attitude that stretches right through society, so that men like Steelshanks Walton "slay, because their

lords command it". It's simply not their place to question their overlord.

[BearQueen87]

WOLF AND DRAGON

DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND EDDARD STARK

PART III

This was a very nice wrap up essay, Parwan. Thanks for the insight!

I don’t say that the “true king” fixation caused the unfortunate tendency, but it was at least a major contributor to it. If people are obsessed with the idea that there is one and only one correct leader, they can easily overlook other important matters. Also, if the guy on the throne is the one-and-only, then his orders can’t be seriously questioned. If he does things that endanger the realm, no one is going to go against him.

“All justice flows from the king,” Eddard tells Catelyn when they meet in King’s Landing. Aboard Balerion on the way to Astapor, Dany tells Whitebeard, “A wise man never makes an enemy of a king.” These two statements have a good bit in common.

I agree but I do have to wonder about the "cannot be seriously questioned" bit. Ned does question Robert WRT killing Dany, though not strongly enough to do anything other than resign his post as Hand of the King. And also, granted, this questioning stems from something deeply personal for Ned (namely Jon Snow, if RLJ). And furthermore is probably only possible because of Ned and Robert's friendship that constantly blinds both of them (Ned to the kind of man and King Robert is, and Robert to the fact that Ned is...not fit for this job).

So perhaps you're right that the mandates and orders of the King cannot be seriously questioned.

But Stark does not stand alone. To the contrary, his way of seeing things is very much the rule. Others have similar opinions. The man on the Iron Throne is THE MAN. Justice comes from him. Ser Kevan, for example, is not a bad guy for a Lannister. When he visits Tyrion in his cell, he tells the Imp that justice belongs to the throne. It seems to be a possession, sort of like a sword or a horse, I suppose. Truth and goodness is invested in a person, not an institution, and not a constitution. There isn't much in the way of well-designed process, established sets of laws and precedents, etc. Good governance depends on the virtue of the man (or woman) in charge.

Good point. And the laws seem to change based on whomever is sitting on that throne. If one King doesn't like Law "A" he can get rid of it; but the King following him might put it back in place because he has a particular fondness for Law "A" The council that is supposed to advise the King is really, in the end, a bunch of yes-men who simply find a way to make Law "A" happen (or not happen). It must be exhausting being a commonperson in Westeros, with so much changing.

Note that the butcher’s boy isn’t suggested as a witness. The thought doesn’t even occur to anyone. Fundamentally, the rule of law does not exist in this system. It isn’t just that a commoner’s word is not as good as an aristocrat’s. There is also the issue of corroboration. Mycah ran away. I don’t think any of the three witnesses asked to testify denied that. It seems unlikely that he and Arya would have had time to plot things, to get a false story straight. And there’s the matter of the cut on his cheek. Was it there or not? No one asks. If the kid had been found alive, and if there had been a cut on his cheek, that would support Arya’s version of events.

Worse things occur. The slaughter of the boy is seen as unfortunate by some people, but it isn’t treated as a crime. In our terms, this was a murder, ordered by the queen and undoubtedly approved by the crown prince.* There is no suggestion, however, that criminal charges should be brought. Lord Eddard Stark doesn’t even consider canceling the betrothal of his older daughter to a little creep whose lies helped lead to the death of an innocent person.

With the exception of Arya and one brief moment with Ned when Sandor Clegane walks by with the dead boy, no one seems to care that one more "gutter rat" is dead. Or that he was witness to this crime, you're right. Nobody listens to the small folk because, surely, they have nothing worth saying. The laws and rule come from above and the little people are expected to play by the rules. The "trial" itself is a farce, with the minds of at least one "judge" made up (Cersei). She is both judge, jury and if she had her way, executioner (by way of Ser Ilyn of course). Robert, in all his Kingly glory, is mostly just bothered that he had to take time away from drinking for this "trial." But none of the obvious inability of King Robert nor the vindictive nature of Queen Cersei matter. Their word is final.

So, the king provides justice to the realm, much as the shepherd provides safety to the flock.

Or a father to his children; a fairly popular metaphor in certain real world historical eras.

She is a woman who sincerely believes in the need for a good monarch to rule the realm. She thinks she has a duty, not only to the Tagaryens, but also to Westeros. I’ll repeat a phrase I used before. Deanerys Tarragon’s attitude is not one of privilege and pure entitlement. It is more like noblesse oblige on steroids.

It also pretty clearly matches the rest of the world's attitudes. Consider this: what do we call Robert's war and the downfall of the Targaryen monarchy? It's not Robert's fight for justice. Its Robert's Rebellion. As in, to act against an institution, a person, or an idea which is considered lawful and true. Robert is the King now and justice comes from him, because he holds the throne, but the act of getting there was tantamount to treason. He says it himself, there are still those who label him Usurper. Dany isn't privileged. She's on the other (losing) side of history; Stannis is also on the losing side of history, having been denied what is his by rights since Robert has no true born heir.

Eddard Stark accepts the common wisdom of his social class and his time. This “wisdom” has been shaped, perhaps put in place, by the maesters, men who have close to zero experience beyond the Wall

Or if you believe certain conspiracies, trying to "fix" the problem themselves by eradication of magic and therefore almost willfully keeping the populace ignorant and unprepared.

Jorah Mormont is from the North though. He might not believe either, but he has less excuse for not giving some credence to the threat.

Jorah is a pragmatist. He won't believe in Others and the like until he has evidence. Any chance Jorah had a family member on the Wall who passed on a message to a certain Brother who is (IMO) quite likely to have a run in with Our Queen?

Barristan and Jorah also told their queen nothing about winter. But this failure on their part gave no weight to a glaringly obvious fact: Westeros doesn’t need another invader.

Just to defend Jorah a bit (shocking, I know) but he does tell Dany that the winters of Bear Island are harsher than she could ever possibly imagine (Dany I, ACOK). I think it's more that part of Jorah doesn't really believe that they'll go home (hence why he also, in part, doesn't tell her about Varys and his treachery) so what's the point in telling her about the harsh winters in Westeros? However, when they do start the journey home, he'll know better than anyone the kind of real Winter Dany can expect.

So the spider thinks that now is just the time to bring about a situation where “Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king.” In truth, if Aegon were worth a damn as a leader, he would see that now is not the time for opening new fronts of slaughter and destruction.

For what it's worth, but I do think that (this is not the time for opening new fronts of slaughter and destruction) is something Dany will understand and see, as opposed to Aegon. Now it could be that Aegon, the Lannisters and maybe Euron have fought themselves bloody and all Dany needs to do is swoop in, take control and subdue the rabble but I tend to think that just as she's about to do that, she gets the call to go north. Again, for what it's worth, the HBO has hinted at this with her HotU vision in which she is just about to reach out and touch the throne when suddenly she turns away and goes north because she hears the cries on a baby (her people). The crying leads her north to the Wall.

[Parwan]

1. This was a very nice wrap up essay, Parwan. Thanks for the insight!

2. I agree but I do have to wonder about the "cannot be seriously questioned" bit. Ned does question Robert WRT killing Dany, though not strongly enough to do anything other than resign his post as Hand of the King. And also, granted, this questioning stems from something deeply personal for Ned (namely Jon Snow, if RLJ). And furthermore is probably only possible because of Ned and Robert's friendship that constantly blinds both of them (Ned to the kind of man and King Robert is, and Robert to the fact that Ned is...not fit for this job).

So perhaps you're right that the mandates and orders of the King cannot be seriously questioned.

3. Good point. And the laws seem to change based on whomever is sitting on that throne. If one King doesn't like Law "A" he can get rid of it; but the King following him might put it back in place because he has a particular fondness for Law "A" The council that is supposed to advise the King is really, in the end, a bunch of yes-men who simply find a way to make Law "A" happen (or not happen). It must be exhausting being a commonperson in Westeros, with so much changing.

4. With the exception of Arya and one brief moment with Ned when Sandor Clegane walks by with the dead boy, no one seems to care that one more "gutter rat" is dead. Or that he was witness to this crime, you're right. Nobody listens to the small folk because, surely, they have nothing worth saying. The laws and rule come from above and the little people are expected to play by the rules. The "trial" itself is a farce, with the minds of at least one "judge" made up (Cersei). She is both judge, jury and if she had her way, executioner (by way of Ser Ilyn of course). Robert, in all his Kingly glory, is mostly just bothered that he had to take time away from drinking for this "trial." But none of the obvious inability of King Robert nor the vindictive nature of Queen Cersei matter. Their word is final.

...

5. It also pretty clearly matches the rest of the world's attitudes. Consider this: what do we call Robert's war and the downfall of the Targaryen monarchy? It's not Robert's fight for justice. Its Robert's Rebellion. As in, to act against an institution, a person, or an idea which is considered lawful and true. Robert is the King now and justice comes from him, because he holds the throne, but the act of getting there was tantamount to treason. He says it himself, there are still those who label him Usurper. Dany isn't privileged. She's on the other (losing) side of history; Stannis is also on the losing side of history, having been denied what is his by rights since Robert has no true born heir.

...

6. For what it's worth, but I do think that (this is not the time for opening new fronts of slaughter and destruction) is something Dany will understand and see, as opposed to Aegon. Now it could be that Aegon, the Lannisters and maybe Euron have fought themselves bloody and all Dany needs to do is swoop in, take control and subdue the rabble but I tend to think that just as she's about to do that, she gets the call to go north. Again, for what it's worth, the HBO has hinted at this with her HotU vision in which she is just about to reach out and touch the throne when suddenly she turns away and goes north because she hears the cries on a baby (her people). The crying leads her north to the Wall.

1. You're welcome, glad to do it.

2. Remember that my statement was a conditional. I say, "if the guy on the throne is the one-and-only." Given the condition I specify, the result follows. In the story, the condition does not always obtain. There are various questions and challenges. There are also examples of treason, back stabbing, etc. These are personal things though. There is no systemic element in them. No one says that some royal actions violate constitutional principles. No one says anything like "The king has failed to fulfill his obligations." It seems to me that no one even seriously entertains these thoughts.

There are interesting events where someone gets at least in the area of the central problem. The people who do this are not scholars (e.g. the maesters). They are not intellectuals (e.g. Tyrion). They are fighters, men of action, etc. They do not look systematically at the problem, saying "we need to change the way we do things." One example is Jaime and his "So many vows" comment. The guy is needling Catelyn. He is engaging in self justification. Nevertheless, he has a good point.

3. Some are yes-men. Some are traitors. Some are guys who are just out for themselves.

4. People like Ned will listen to the smallfolk. Not even Ned, however, will publicly suggest that the word of a peasant or worker should be given equal weight to the word of the crown prince.

5. Some people are troubled by the events or RR. Some people have not resolved their feelings. Different people react differently. Jaime broods, feels sorry for himself, makes sarcastic comments, and sometimes comes up with worthwhile insights. Ned is haunted by the deaths of the Targaryen children. Stannis grinds his teeth. As I indicated earlier, I look forward to comparing the dragon queen and the former Lord of Dragonstone. Stannis Baratheon is sure that a man owes absolute fidelity to his liege lord. He is also sure that a man owes absolute fidelity to his brother. This is an example of the "so many vows" problem and of the struggle within the human heart.

6. I don't know what will happen with Dany in Westeros. I do say that it is a more interesting problem than some people believe. She is not "bat shit crazy." She is not just going west to "burn shit down."

Let me assume the role of a minor lord with bannermen, knights, etc. I hear about Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons. I might say, "Gods, keep her away from us. What the realm does not need is the Mad King's daughter and a bunch of fire breathing monsters." On the other hand, if I learned anything about events in the north, I'd say, "We at least have got to give this woman a chance. We are in serious danger of being overrun by a huge zombie army. We need all the help we can get. Daenerys and her dragons may be our best hope."

[Kyoshi]

I concede the point about land redistribution. I hadn't thought about the merchant class to be honest, or that it's standard practice in-universe to redistribute points of power in order to gain loyalty. Also, does Meereen have an official clergy class or are the Graces all there is? [The longer this thread grows, the more interested I am in Meereen].

WOLF AND DRAGON

DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND EDDARD STARK

PART III

Another excellent read. Thank you.

I think that in terms of winter preparedness, the Wot5K contributes quite significantly. This ties in with the attitude towards the impending arrival of the Others. These people aren't only not preparing, they are actively screwing themselves. It's one of those situations where there is always a "bigger" enemy to fight, and so the other, more obscure enemy can wait. Tywin unleashes Gregor on the Riverlands in a year when the maesters are sending ravens to everyone, announcing the arrival of autumn. Here, the man is simply concerned with how the realm views him as a leader of House Lannister, while neglecting to realise that burning farms and livestock isn't something that should be happening at the commencement of a winter that could very well last for years.

Ned reacts, but not for all the reasons one would hope, I think. I can't really remember the exact wording of the passage but I think he sends Dondarion to the Riverlands because Tywin (and Gregor, by extension) dared disturb the King's peace. No one seems concerned about the bigger dangers looming at the horizon...they are all about honour, duty and how everyone perceives the way they wield their power. These would be admirable qualities in another year,certainly not the one with winter coming.

On the right ruler: this topic is quite explosive. Even among readers and posters on this forum, most people seem to believe there is, in fact, a right ruler. Hence the several threads attempting to prove beyond doubt Dany's legitimacy to the IT, and supporting Stannis simply because he happens to be the eldest living, male Baratheon. There are real-life historical references often used to support these claims i.e. just because something has been done like that (even in real life [inheritance laws and systems]]), it must mean this thing has some merit to it. It doesn't seem to matter whether or not said "rightful ruler" will do a good job once seated on the throne. I personally don't care and think that with good advisors, age and the removal of most of his present entourage, Tommen would not be too bad for the realm. Blood should not matter...but it's naive on my part and would be anachronistic in-universe.

This idea of the "rightful ruler" has actually caused more trouble I think:

• Stannis starts a war because he is the rightful one (and the Lannisters react). The result: thousands suffer for it.
  
• Drogo (at Dany's behest and Robert's provocation) rapes and plunders the land of the Lazhareen because his wife should be restored to the iron chair her father once sat on.
  

This is probably a stupid question, but ever since reading the books I've wondered just how far the winter will extend in terms of Geography. Some regions seem to boast a significantly warmer climate than the majority of Westeros. So I wonder if it will be like Earth--where winters in certain areas are warmer than in others. Or if the Red People are more accurate in predicting that the winter will threaten the existence of all humankind, even beyond Westeros.

[BearQueen87]

This is probably a stupid question, but ever since reading the books I've wondered just how far the winter will extend in terms of Geography. Some regions seem to boast a significantly warmer climate than the majority of Westeros. So I wonder if it will be like Earth--where winters in certain areas are warmer than in others. Or if the Red People are more accurate in predicting that the winter will threaten the existence of all humankind, even beyond Westeros.

It seems to be that some areas are slightly warmer than others. It's a blizzard outside WF; snow is just beginning to fall in KL; the grass is dying in the Dothraki Sea but Dany isn't freezing to death by any means. The further from the Heart of Winter you get, the less extreme it is at present (at least that's how it seems). However, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets extremely bad extremely quickly in all corner of Planetos in order to drive home the point that this BIG BAD WINTER is really BIG and really BAD

[Kyoshi]

It seems to be that some areas are slightly warmer than others. It's a blizzard outside WF; snow is just beginning to fall in KL; the grass is dying in the Dothraki Sea but Dany isn't freezing to death by any means. The further from the Heart of Winter you get, the less extreme it is at present (at least that's how it seems). However, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets extremely bad extremely quickly in all corner of Planetos in order to drive home the point that this BIG BAD WINTER is really BIG and really BAD

I get your point. For some reason I always thought the big bad winter was only coming to Westeros, mainly because I automatically dismiss anything said by the Red People. Probably a bad idea.

[BearQueen87]

I get your point. For some reason I always thought the big bad winter was only coming to Westeros, mainly because I automatically dismiss anything said by the Red People. Probably a bad idea.

I wouldn't dismiss anything they say, but I wouldn't accept it as gospel truth either. Most cultures have some sort of grand narrative that includes an end-of-days type story: the Apocalypse, Ragnorak, Frashokereti (Zoroastrianism) The War for the Dawn ect. Given that the Red Priests are from a (highly) dualistic religion, the idea of a coming battle/storm/great catastrophe that manifests in a war for the souls of mankind is pretty normal to the point where I would consider them weird if they didn't have an end-of-days mythos.

[Kyoshi]

^^when you put it like that, I start wondering if the Faith and the old gods people have an equivalent. We know the Dothraki do [the grass that eats all other grass and plunges the world into darkness or something like that]. The tale of the last hero seems the closest thing where Westerosi religions are concerned. Then again, the religion of the old gods doesn't seem all that organised. They don't seem to follow a dogmatic system.

[Kyoshi]

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

ESSAY I: “HOME IS BEHIND, THE WORLD AHEAD”

1. INTRODUCTION AND RAMBLINGS

This is the first of three essays that will analyse the parallel journeys of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.

Born in 284 and 286 AC, respectively, Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark find themselves with the misfortune of being girls in a patriarchal society. On paper, with these conditions vastly narrowing the experience of the world acceptable for them, Daenerys and Sansa (and perhaps Arya) should be the most like one another in our pool of POV characters. By examining their origins stories and projected trajectories, I will try to show that although they share a few obvious similarities (such as their gender and reative age), these two have unique arcs. Even though by the end of the fifth book the older is a mere sixteen years old, they can both be deemed to be of age; a condition that while possesses its own advantages, dawns with a new set of burdens and restrictions.

Each travels a thorny path, in both the emotional and physical sense. Sansa willingly leaves Winterfell with the hope of future queenly duties for herself and the illusion of gallantry in those around her. Daenerys flees Westeros with assassins at her heels and violence in her future, willingness is not even a factor since she is an infant during her flight. Through rivers, grasslands, deserts, sieges, insurgencies, births, deaths, Essos and Westeros, their journeys are transformative in every sense of the word. Let us start at the beginning.

2. A DEAD WOLF AND STONE DRAGONS

2.1. First Contact

The first difference between these two is a rather easy one to spot. Ironically, it starts as a similarity. But with time, and as the girls and the people around them either grow or regress, the similarity gradually leads them down different paths. Daenerys and Sansa are introduced to us while at the brink of marriage. This is interesting for different reasons. Firstly, we don’t meet the girls as true individuals since their plights and desires are directly linked to another. Secondly, and I could be wrong on this, none of the younger male POV characters share this similarity. Neither does Arya for that matter. But hers is an arc introduced with a marked absence of sexuality. Perhaps even more interesting is that Arya’s arc starts with a marked failure in an explicitly and specifically feminine task in this universe and ours—needlework. This is followed by a demonstration of her desire for swordplay. At least from a superficial standpoint, Arya’s is established as a more “masculine” arc compared to Dany's and Sansa's.

When we first meet Sansa, she has been recently betrothed to the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms—which is an attractive prospect by all appearances. She is naturally elated at the news. And although she admits to herself that she doesn’t know Joffrey very well, she is already in love with him because he is what she has always imagined her prince should be: tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. He’s the stuff of fairy tales and for the majority of the her early journey, Sansa seems to look at the world as a place divided between people like Joffrey and people opposite to what he represents. The only obstacle in this tale of bliss is that she and Joffrey are not to marry for years and years. But in the meantime they can enjoy a courtship escorted by knights, a queen and beautified by the background of a destination Sansa believes will be like a song—King’s Landing.

Daenerys, on the other hand, is introduced to us while being examined by her brother the way a brooding mare would be. She is subsequently sold to the barbarian khal of a Dothraki khalasar. This is not an attractive prospect at all and she is naturally distressed at the news. Where we saw Joffrey as a tall and handsome boy with golden hair, Daenerys’s betrothed is described as follows: Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. To make matters worse, the unsubtle transaction of her immediate wedding is sealed when she dons a golden collar.

Political intrigue is central to ASOIAF and the medieval era on which it was based. So naturally, there will be a few political marriages, some subtle and some not, some bearable and some not, some ending well and some not. While Sansa’s betrothal serves to highlight the advantages that can be gained from such an alliance by masking it all with Sansa’s glee and presenting a truce to the cold war between House Lanister and Stark, Dany’s exposes the aspects of it that are either neglected or regarded as trivial by the key negotiators—Ned, Robert, Illyrio and Viserys.

Of course, Sansa eventually grows disillusioned and Drogo eventually dies, freeing both girls and allowing their personalities, plights and desires to become more focused and individualistic, but this does not happen before the girls endure some kind of profound hardship. Ironically, the theme of arranged marriages is later picked up by Robb (Sansa’s brother) and Quentyn (Dany’s “betrothed”). But unlike Dany and Sansa, Robb and Quentyn don’t escape alive.

One could argue that Dany and Sansa don’t escape it at all given Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion, her betrothal to Robin and then Harry, and given Dany’s marriage to Hizdhar. But that would require that one also completely disregard the personal growth experienced by each girl between the time of her first golden collar to the next one. So with several different layers of juxtapositioned ironies, this is their first similarity as well as difference.

2.2. Nature and Nurture

Dany seems to be more observant of people around her. This is demonstrated by her scepticism with Mopatis’s intentions in helping her and Viserys. She also notes things that her elder brother supposedly misses, such as other people’s opinions of him and the possibility that people in Westeros are not secretly convening with the explicit hope of restoring a Targaryen to the iron throne. Sansa is more child-like, naïve and complacent.

Firstly, she (Sansa) fully embraces her highborn status and doesn’t comprehend why someone like Arya would wish to step outside the comforts and conveniences it offers. Her ideas of gallantry and what it means to be “good” are encompassed in qualities like youth, beauty and a good sense of fashion. Daenerys, in her fearful view of the world, encompasses these ideas in slightly more complicated “qualities” like justice.

Daenerys also envies the barefoot children playing in the Pentoshi streets. She wishes to be one of them, free from her name and noble birth. And later on, when she no longer considers herself a child, she internally expresses the desire to be a common woman who is held away somewhere with her lover. While she always does what she considers her duty and continually embraces her status (and identity), the moments when she rejects this status remain integral to her journey.

She (Dany) easily assimilates into the Dothraki culture: she learns the language, eats their food, and wears the name of Khaleesi with pride. “They are my people now,” Dany said [of the Dothraki, whom she had earlier regarded as her brother does]. “You should not call them savages, brother.” In Meereen she initially wants to ban the tokar but later dons it to show her issue that she accepts Meereen as her city and the Meereenesse as her people.

In the same vein that Dany continually rejects and accepts who she is, thus continually reinventing herself to fit into her environment, Sansa also does this quite well (though sometimes without even seeming aware of it). Most notable in these instances is that although a child of the North, she initially subscribes to the Faith of the Seven. The candles, the pretty statues and the more organised religion of the Faith match her ideas of beauty perfectly. However, she is later proven malleable with her beliefs while in King’s Landing and surrounded by strangers and enemies. In this case she finds the only connection to the North and her family—the godswood.

Additionally, when offered the chance to ride in the royal wheelhouse with the queen and princess, she is horrified at the idea of taking Lady with her. But earlier in the same chapter she told Septa Mordane that the direwolves were not ordinary beasts and should not be shunned from the dining table. This quality presents itself both subtly and profoundly, depending on the situation.

2.3. The Parabola (A Summation of First Contact and Nature and Nurture)

Given each girl’s reaction to her betrothal and the way each responds to situations in general, one could argue that they are products of their respective environments. After all, Sansa was raised in a single castle, with her family surrounding her, and with a clear and more structured, literal idea of home. Dany has been running from both obscure and tangible threats to her life since the moment of her conception. Her idea of home is exactly that—an idea. As a result, Sansa knows where she is going with absolute certainty while Dany does not. As a further result, Sansa immediately knows when she has taken a wrong turn. Perhaps this, more than anything else, is what has separated them from the beginning and will continue to do so.

To elaborate, later in her journey, Sansa has a clear idea of where she wants to end up—Winterfell, the place of her origins, her home. Dany’s idea of home is what Viserys tells to her. She knows names like Dorne and Dragonstone, but her idea of a traditional home can be summed up to a house with a red door, and a lemon tree outside, the childhood she had never known. So later in her journey, Dany seems to wander from place to place, from the Red Waste where she watches her people die, and to Meereen, where she is not wanted, with only the idea that she wants to get to that better place looming just beyond the horizon. But in the end she doesn’t really belong anywhere.

I’ve often seen it stated that Dany shouldn’t be yearning for Westeros so desperately because she hardly knows the place and that isn’t her home—she is a foreigner come to lay waste to it. Then again, it is stated with equal passion that she should have left Meereen and the rest of the slaving cities to those people since she is a foreigner and doesn’t belong to Essos. So it seems she doesn’t belong where she is and where she’s going, or anywhere in the known world. But Vaylria has been destroyed and she would be a foreigner everywhere else. I think that her plight, more than any other’s, asks the question: are all those who wander lost?

Hopefully, as clearly demonstrated above, Sansa’s tale starts rather positively in contrast to Danys’s. But for the majority of the series, and as a direct result of the nature of her betrothed, Sansa is in less control of her fate and arguably walks a less desirable path than Dany. Strangely, Sansa’s prince becomes her tormenter. And even more strangely, Dany’s monster becomes her gateway to independence. I can’t help but wonder if this was foreshadowed by the following: the Stark chapters open with the death of a direwolf while Daenerys receives dragon eggs (a symbol of life) at her wedding. I can’t help but wonder—by looking at the beginning, is it possible to draw parabolas for their journeys and therefore predict where they will end?

3. HOME IS BEHIND, THE WORLD AHEAD…

3.1. The Odyssey

The second similarity shared by Dany and Sansa is that they are always either trying to get somewhere, or to stay where they are not wanted. And like the first similarity, it reveals quite a few differences.

One of the ways in which Daenerys gains confidence is in riding her silver. She does this while travelling to Vaes Dothrak to be presented to the dosh khaleen. It’s a very physical thing that has quite a huge impact on her psyche. And while riding, she starts to notice the beauties of the land around her. Though Drogo still ignores her for most of the day and only comes to her for sex, and though she starts to contemplate suicide when she realised that her earlier trepidation about her marriage was warranted, her strength grows in other regards.

It is during this time that she develops the bond between herself and her dragon eggs. This allows her to regain her will to live. Where we once saw her trembling before Viserys, she later asserts power over him by stripping him of his horse privileges. Where she once seemed to see her brother with some reverence, she becomes disillusioned of his ability to rule the Seven Kingdoms with any form of efficiency.

In a nutshell, once she decides she wants to live and goes as far as ascending herself to more than a breeding mare for Drogo, her ambitions start to grow beyond survival and the ordinary. What... what if it were not Viserys?” she asked. “If it were someone else who led them? Someone stronger? Could the Dothraki truly conquer the Seven Kingdoms?” Of course, Drogo is still alive and she has to beg him first. Not to mention that by this point she has fallen in love with him, thus complicating the nature of her enslavement and fully reversing the conditions under which we first met her. But the first signs of escape are there. She has started to think like an individual. In essence, has journey has entered the second stage—threshold, the beginning of transformation. And perhaps this is what later feeds her ambition in the Red Waste, then Qarth, then Astapor and Yunkai, Meereen, and back to the Dothraki Sea.

Sansa’s journey to King’s Landing is rather different. She doesn't like riding and refuses to leave the column in order to explore the Riverlands. Along the way, her direwolf, something that is a part of her, is killed by her father, thus briefly estranging her from him. She blames her sister for the incident and becomes estranged from her as well. Her betrothed shows all signs of detesting her. The only knight who seems ever present in her shadow is the maimed Hound, and he’s not even a knight. When she reaches King's Landing she witnesses the dysfunctional nature of the royal family: Cersei and Robert argue while Robert in turn speaks very lowly of Ser Jaime. And in one of the few instances where she was convinced she would see one of Old Nan’s tales come to life, she was denied. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. It soon became Murphy’s Law with Sansa—everything that can go wrong, does. Her own words sum everything up neatly—the feast was over, and the beautiful dream had ended with it.

Ideally, this is where her entrance into the threshold stage would have commenced. But it goes in the opposite direction. She impedes her own enlightenment by making excuses for people. She blames her father’s leg as the reason he did not send Loras to fight the Mountain, she blames Joffrey’s intoxication for assaulting Mycah, etc. At this point, she travels in the opposite direction of the hero’s journey. Nevertheless, she is pushed into it by her father’s announcement of their impending return to Winterfell. But Winterfell has no singers, tourneys and knights, so she doesn’t want to be there. She naively informs Cersei of her father’s plans. The degree of her contribution to her father's capture is still a debate. Maybe telling Cersei her father's plans made a difference or maybe it didn't. If it did, then the irony is that her own actions resulted in her improsenment. Moreover, when in King’s Landing, and later while she is living in the Fingers and the Eyrie, Winterfell is the only place she wants to be.

3.2. The Difference between Girls and Women

Daenerys and Sansa both lose their childhoods rather untimely. As already stated, Sansa is initially more willing than Daenerys. However, their roles are later reversed. After Drogo dies and Joffrey reveals his true colours, Daenerys is forced into the role of a leader for her misfit khalasar while Sansa is left yearning for a snowball game with her siblings.

The primary signal for womanhood in-universe seems to be menstruation and only that. Once the threshold has been passed, childhood is lost and cannot be reclaimed. The attainment of manhood seems more arbitrary than this. This potentially allows boys to experience either side of the age-line with freedoms that aren’t allowed to their female counterparts. Bran is four years younger than Sansa but he is already expected to watch a beheading without flinching or looking away. His older sisters aren’t even asked to the beheading.

That’s not to say that what’s expected of him doesn’t come with its own burdens. After all, throughout his journey, we see a boy who doesn’t even revel in the joys childhood can offer; we see someone who constantly reassures himself that he is almost a man grown, someone who is uncomfortably sitting somewhere in the confusing gap between childhood and adulthood. Both boys and girls are robbed of something. But the inconsistencies of “the system” make it harder to see in one case and easier in the other. Myrcella Baratheon put it nicely when she said, “We’re children, we’re meant to be childish.”

We don’t see Dany’s first menstruation experience on-page. We do see the first announcement of her pregnancy, which is mentioned in a rather flippant manner:

They were on the far side of the Dothraki Sea when Jhiqui brushed the soft swell of Dany’s stomach with her fingers and said, “Khaleesi, you are with child.”

“I know,” Dany told her.

It was her fourteenth name day.

That’s it. That’s how the whole experience goes. It’s almost like, “Well, she was already a woman, why should it be mentioned with a tone of poignancy?” Compare this to Sansa’s experience of leaping from childhood to womanhood: She couldn’t let them see, or they’d marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him. And later: Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me [of menstruation], but I...I thought it would be different [i.e. less messy and more magical].”

It’s a bloody business that possesses no apparent magic in either case. Even for boys, whom I believe have to demonstarte some degree of killing prowess. After the bloody business, the concerned child is now expected to suddenly be “wiser”, to relinquish every childish habit and simply be a woman. In fact, the whole thing can be summed up quite neatly where highborn girls are concerned:

Cersei: “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?”

Sansa: “It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.”

To conclude on this, Westeros is both simple and difficult, and the rules are both simple and difficult. This section of the essay is not meant to garner sympathy for Sansa and Dany simply because they are children stuck in a cycle of breeding, for the sake of inheritance and more breeding. We have children (who were never allowed to be children themselves) raising children. Maybe that's how we end up with Robb, Viserys, Lysa and others like them.

4. HIGH HOPES

4.1. “Beyond the Horizon of the Place We Lived When We Were Young”

Second to the pursuit of home, disillusionment is a constant theme in the series. The two often merge where Dany and Sansa are concerned. Because, as I have already posited, Dany’s idea of home is more abstract, it is hard to confirm her achievements and just as hard for her to assert, or at least realise when she has made a wrong turn.

After wandering the Red Waste and then finally settling in the City of Bones, Dany makes the decision to deploy scouts to see what lies beyond. She does not wish to “strike out blind” again, she says. But for the majority of the series it seems as though this is exactly what she does. In fact, there are times when it becomes difficult to establish if instead of running towards something, whether specific or not, both girls are simply escaping and by default, seeming to be running towards something:

Daenerys: Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door... was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?

Compare it to this: She tried to imagine what it would feel like, when she first caught sight of the land she was born to rule. It will be as fair a shore as I have ever seen, I know it. How could it be otherwise?

Sansa: Let him [let Stannis burn King’s Landing].” When Sansa had first beheld the Great Sept with its marble walls and seven crystal towers, she’d thought it was the most beautiful building in the world, but that had been before Joffrey beheaded her father on its steps. “I want it burned.”

Compare it to this: Highgarden sounded like the place she had always dreamed of, like the beautiful magical court she had once hoped to find at King’s Landing.

The first quote in each case indicates a desire to escape a specific fate: becoming a crone in Dany’s case and her tormentors in Sansa’s. I don’t think the resultant destination really matters, so long as it’s a better place, or even a state of mind I think. In one of her thoughts, Dany remembers that Viserys promised her their lives would become much better once he reclaimed their throne and home. But of course, Viserys sells Dany in order to claim this dream, thus precluding her from the better life he had earlier promised. Robb goes to war to free his father and sisters from the Lannisters. Yet when presented with the opportunity to trade Ser Jaime for Sansa (and Arya) he declines because she is a girl. If one is to argue that by freeing his family, Robb was attempting to restore or attain some form of “Stark Dream,” then one can also argue that he effectively denies Sansa its privileges because said dream can only be achieved by her continued imprisonment, at least from his perspective.

Once Viserys dies and Dany claims the dream he had, she finds that she has to sell some of her ideals. She first learns that home will come at the price of pillaging, raping and ultimately enslaving the Lazhareen. Much later she marries Hizdhar for political reasons and they emerge from the temple as man and wife, bound together wrist and ankle with chains of yellow gold. This, in a way, brings her full circle to where she started.

With Sansa it’s slightly different. After escaping the beautiful Joffrey, who turned out to be a monster, she is married to Tyrion Lannister, whom some consider to be a physical monster. She had hoped to marry Loras, but was rudely reminded that the knights of the Kingsguard took vows of celibacy. Hence she would have to marry Willas—a cripple. She thinks this after her marriage to the Imp: Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair. How have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?

Remember that this is a girl who values beauty greatly and mourned the idea of the debatably handsome Dondarrion being a hero, as opposed to the absolutely beautiful Loras. Since her father’s beheading she finds herself having to adjust her aspirations, simple as they are. Like Dany, Sansa’s dreams keep getting postponed or cancelled. It’s like, “Well, at least I’m not married to Joffrey. Tyrion still ignores me and is part of the family that pioneered wiping out mine, but at least he doesn’t order the knights to beat me.” While with Dany it’s like, “Well, at least I wasn’t sold by someone else this time, but by circumstances. And I didn’t do it to reclaim a lost kingdom like my brother, but at least there will be peace in this city that keeps rejecting me.”

Sansa’s parallel doesn’t come without its own compromises. In A Feast for Crows, Littlefinger confides that in order for Harry to actually live up to his epithet, everyone else with a better claim to the Vale would need to die—this means Robin. Whether or not Sansa is aware of Robin’s poisoning is a topic deserving of its own thread. But we do know this much: she remarks that two Robins exist—Robin the Boy and Robin the Lord. Maester Colemon seemingly cares for the former more than the latter, while she and her “father” care for the latter because they have other plans for him. What these plans are, we can all speculate. But given Littlefinger’s plans for Harry’s ascension and her knowledge of this, I would say we have a good starting point.

In a nutshell, where Viserys and Mopatis were the key negotiators in Dany’s first marriage, she has assumed the role, reversing the theme of her imprisonment. Where Sansa was once an oblivious child who only cared for songs, she is now aware. Perhaps she is going as far as reversing her role in her journey—turning from prisoner to jailer. I only posit, I don't conclude.

5. THE LAST DRAGON AND THE WOLF OF THE NORTH

5.1. Extinction

A short list of a few thigs Daenerys and Sansa could discuss if they ever met:

--- They both have “gallant” brothers who lost great wars after choosing love over duty.

--- Both face the possible extinction of their families (as a possible result of said gallant brothers’ actions) ^[1].

--- It is often suggested that Dany can only claim the seat of her forbearers as the sister of the apparently beloved Rhaegar while Sansa has to follow Littlefinger’s plans and marry Harry the Heir. The northern lords might rally to her side because she is Ned’s daughter and Robb’s sister, but not for her [this is discussed further overleaf].

--- Sansa realises that people may never come to lover her, but would pursue her because of Winterfell. Daenerys realises that Daario doesn’t love her, but the dragon queen instead.

Daenerys is Valyrian by blood, Westerosi by birth, and Essosi by residence. The first aspect of her identity represents extinction—Valyria is a smoking ruin, every known Targaryen is dead, dragons are extinct and the iron throne has been claimed by another dynasty. Discounting R+L=J ^[2], she is a girl at the end of line, a representative of a dead culture. She says the following to her would-be poisoner: “My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms.”

Perhaps as a result of a lack extensive knowledge of her heritage, her journey is filled with things that could be considered to be adornments that when she wears, connect her to this largely unknown aspect of her identity. When travelling to Astapor, she names her ships after Valyrian gods, the command she gives for her dragons to attack is the Valyrian word dracarys, she asks for her dragon eggs when she is feeling weak, she often utters, “I am the blood of the dragon,” etc.

Sansa has lived her entire life in Westeros. But I don’t think that makes it easier to connect to her heritage. After her father’s beheading, she reverts to his religion without internal deliberation. But I don’t think the religion was something she ever understood. The Faith is more structured and was therefore easier to adapt to: when a warrior is going to battle he need only light a candle for the Warrior and pray for courage, pray for the Mother’s mercy and the Father’s justice and then walk forth to battle. When one needs wisdom, then the Crone’s shrine is visited, etc. The old gods are an obscure thing to understand and seeing as Sansa had somewhat rejected their bleak doctrine, I wonder how familiar she is with it.

Even with Bran’s chapters, I don’t think I understand how praying to the old gods works. Are they an omnipresent entity that doesn’t need summons, therefore nullifying the practice of prayer? Or are they “traditional” gods who require reverence in order to intervene? Are they watching over Sansa? Especially in the Vale, where she currently is, and there godswood is without a tree? It seems that the old gods are intrinsic of the northern culture to a degree, so on that level it makes sense.

Furthermore, Cersei and Tywin strip her of the name ‘Stark’ to some degree by marrying her to Tyrion. By doing this, they effectively ensure that the North will reject her. Stannis doesn’t seem to think she is still a Stark. I wonder how many of the northern lords would support her claim to Winterfell and completely disregard her marriage.

Lastly, she is literally transformed by Littlefinger when he gives her black dye for her hair and a new, bastard name. She then adds a year to her age so that she can be more bastard-like. As the black-haired, fourteen year old Alayne Stone, she is not allowed to wear the Stark and Tully colours. And towards the end of A Feast for Crows, she seems to be settling into her new identity with considerable comfort. With arguable effectiveness, Sansa Stark is being erased. And the girl who may one day return to Winterfell may not be the same one who left it. I think she knows and fears this. So like Dany, who always has to remind herself that she is the blood of the dragon, Sansa reminds herself that she is a Stark of Winterfell.

^[1] Jon has taken a vow of celibacy and Daenerys is possibly barren.

^[2] Sansa doesn’t know her sister and brothers are still alive. Thus the belief that she is the last Stark alive influences her life more than the truth.

[Kyoshi]

Sorry for grammatical errors and spellings, and other things like that. I'm not all there in the head right now and if I tried to correct it, it would just end up worse. Enjoy the discussion! :)

[Parwan]

Good job, Kyoshi. I was offline for a while. Then, when I tried to get back on, I ran into the technical problems the site was having. I'll have a few comments on Daenerys and Sansa tonight when I have more time. 

[BearQueen87]

*shakes fist at forum*

 

So I had this response I was working on and then the forum did a nutty. And now it's gone. BUT I have tomorrow off from work so I will be devoting an hour or two your analysis, Kyoshi. I'm sorry that you've been left in the lurch. The forum...seriously, that was a weird 48 hours.

[Parwan]

On the subjects of adaptability and malleability--One could say a great deal here, even if confined to the two characters we are currently considering. When is a person showing adaptability? When is she just uncertain and allowing things to drift? When do events take a strong turn, shoving her in a certain direction, or perhaps opening up opportunities that she didn't anticipate? I'll attempt to deal with some of these questions, centering on this quote from Kyoshi:

 

 

She (Dany) easily assimilates into the Dothraki culture: she learns the language, eats their food, and wears the name of Khaleesi with pride. “They are my people now,” Dany said [of the Dothraki, whom she had earlier regarded as her brother does]. “You should not call them savages, brother.” In Meereen she initially wants to ban the tokar but later dons it to show her issue that she accepts Meereen as her city and the Meereenesse as her people.

 

In the same vein that Dany continually rejects and accepts who she is, thus continually reinventing herself to fit into her environment, Sansa also does this quite well (though sometimes without even seeming aware of it). Most notable in these instances is that although a child of the North, she initially subscribes to the Faith of the Seven. The candles, the pretty statues and the more organised religion of the Faith match her ideas of beauty perfectly. However, she is later proven malleable with her beliefs while in King’s Landing and surrounded by strangers and enemies. In this case she finds the only connection to the North and her family—the godswood.

Both Sansa Stark and Daenerys Targaryen show toughness. They manage to survive. However--

 

I wouldn't say that Dany easily assimilates into Dothraki culture. Not only is it physically and emotionally hard for her, the whole thing continues to pose problems for her. She decides she wants to be more queen than khaleesi, but she continues, to some extent, to be seen and even to see herself as a khaleesi. She realizes that the Dothraki way will not do for a ruler who wants her people to love her. However, she maintains this idealized view of Drogo, not a fellow who ruled by  making himself loved. 

 

Dany's idea of "her people" shows a good bit of drift. The phrase means different things at different times to her. 

 

Sansa starts as a true believer in the Seven. I don't think there is any malleability involved here. The young woman is following the faith of her mother. That is the proper thing for a lady to do. 

 

Does Sansa ever pray in the godswood in KL? I suppose she does, but we never see her doing it. And she didn't start visiting the place in order to honor her northern heritage. She got a note: "Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home." This location becomes her meeting place with Dontos. Sansa reports on her prayers in the godswood. She does this when directly questioned by people who ask what she does there.  

[BearQueen87]

 

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

 

 

ESSAY I: “HOME IS BEHIND, THE WORLD AHEAD”

 

 

First off, nicely done Kyoshi! i found this essay to be very enjoyable. Sansa has never been a favorite of mine; I've grown to like her more as her story progresses but I take a very neutral stance on her. Her chapters can be enjoyable, but I enjoy others more, if that makes sense. Obviously I love Dany. So looking at these two to compare and contrast was great. :)

 

Second, just a heads up, but apparently everything written on the forum between the rollback until the new layout (whenever that happens) is NOT going to be saved. So I suggest people saving their posts somewhere---like Word Doc---so that we don't lose all our conversations. (sigh. Why can't we just keep the forum as it is?)

 

 

Born in 284 and 286 AC, respectively, Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark find themselves with the misfortune of being girls in a patriarchal society

 

I'm always shocked when I remember that Dany and Sansa are quite close in age. It's hard to articulate why except to say that in aGoT, Dany already seems more "mature" and "older" than Sansa. Life experiences have had to push Dany out of childhood (if indeed she ever had one). Dany has already started menstruating; she's being wed; and she'll have her first sexual experience by the end of her second POV. Sansa, by contrast, is just a little bit younger but none of those things have happened to her in aGoT. 

 

 

 Even though by the end of the fifth book the older is a mere sixteen years old, they can both be deemed to be of age; a condition that while possesses its own advantages, dawns with a new set of burdens and restrictions.

 

Yes, by the end of book 5, Sansa's life experiences have vastly changed and pushed her out of childhood quite fast.

 

 

1. Daenerys and Sansa are introduced to us while at the brink of marriage. This is interesting for different reasons. Firstly, we don’t meet the girls as true individuals since their plights and desires are directly linked to another.

2.Secondly, and I could be wrong on this, none of the younger male POV characters share this similarity. Neither does Arya for that matter.

 

 

1. Lesson the first when you're a female in either Westeros or Essos: you are a commodity. Even though we learn of Dany's impending marriage to Khal Drogo while in her own POV, Dany is just as voiceless as Sansa Stark while Ned and King Robert discuss wedding her to Prince Joffery. Dany is not allowed to voice her own displeasure at wedding Drogo, and when she does, she is ill treated by Viserys. Sansa isn't consulted, asked, and we see neither Ned nor Cat inform their oldest daughter that she's been promised to the Prince. They are simply promised and given away be the older men in their household.

 

2. I would say that's correct. Jon Snow isn't making any marriage promises and isn't being passed off by Ned. In fact, Jon is making his own choices, namely to join the Night's Watch and get "well and truly drunk" for the first time in his life. Bran is still too young to be promised off to someone but there is still a streak of independence about him. He is forbidden to climb the wall of Winterfell and yet....Arya is an interesting case. She might be too young to entertain future marriage proposals, but it's not as though Ned doesn't recognize that this is the proper path for his youngest daughter to take someday. He tells that she'll marry a prince one day and bear his children and keep his castle, something that Arya turns her nose up at. Arya exists in a liminal space, in terms of gender. We often call her a tomboy and she ends up becoming a bit of an alpha male in her own little wolf pack. She's expected to act female in this world, but she rejects it favor of more masculine/male roles. 

 

 

Neither does Arya for that matter. But hers is an arc introduced with a marked absence of sexuality. Perhaps even more interesting is that Arya’s arc starts with a marked failure in an explicitly and specifically feminine task in this universe and ours—needlework. This is followed by a demonstration of her desire for swordplay. At least from a superficial standpoint, Arya’s is established as a more “masculine” arc compared to Dany's and Sansa's.

 

Yup.

 

In terms of sexuality, it's obviously more apparent in Dany and Sansa's arcs as compared to Arya's but with Dany specifically, her sexual arc begins as one of terror, even before Drogo. Viserys has obviously been abusing his little sister (Dany's doesn't even flinch when he touches her, showing that this is probably a common occurrence in their lives) and while her first time with Drogo goes better than she thought it would, it's still one of fear of the unknown.

 

With Sansa specifically, sex is poetry. Or at least a poetic tale. It's not fear but rather a naive notion that sex is going to be lovely and wonderful and she'll bear the prince a son. It's not bloody or messy or painful in the songs.

 

 

When we first meet Sansa, she has been recently betrothed to the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms—which is an attractive prospect by all appearances. She is naturally elated at the news. And although she admits to herself that she doesn’t know Joffrey very well, she is already in love with him because he is what she has always imagined her prince should be: tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. He’s the stuff of fairy tales and for the majority of the her early journey, Sansa seems to look at the world as a place divided between people like Joffrey and people opposite to what he represents. The only obstacle in this tale of bliss is that she and Joffrey are not to marry for years and years. But in the meantime they can enjoy a courtship escorted by knights, a queen and beautified by the background of a destination Sansa believes will be like a song—King’s Landing.

 

Fairy tales (and fairy tale mentality) play an interesting role in both Sansa and Dany's arc. Sansa's story is of a girl who realizes that the world is not a song through hardships. She still holds that some fairy tale ideas have to be true but on the whole she's learned to see that the world is far harsher. Dany is a girl who grew up knowing that the world was harsh, cold, and cruel yet she clings to her imagined fairy tale of her own life. The house with the red door, arms to keep her warm, a light in the window of every house, Daario coming to sweep her off her feet as she weds Hizzy, ect. Those are all fairy tale-like constructs that Dany can't get rid of even though she knows first hand and better than most that the world isn't a fairy tale.

 

 

Ironically, the theme of arranged marriages is later picked up by Robb (Sansa’s brother) and Quentyn (Dany’s “betrothed”). But unlike Dany and Sansa, Robb and Quentyn don’t escape alive

 

There is also a greater measure of choice in Robb and Quentyn's arcs. It's a choice that would have dire consequences, but a choice nonetheless.

 

Robb could choose (and in the end, does) not to wed a Frey girl. But, as Cat says, that would mean he can't cross at the Twins in the time of war. Robb makes the wiser choice to agree to the marriage, but it's still a choice he gets to make. Sansa is not consulted or given a choice.

 

Quentyn could choose to not go to Dany in Meereen. He could choose to not try so hard to meet her and inform her of Doran's machinations. He could choose to stop trying to see her when Dany spurns him. The consequences would be that the Lannisters remain on the throne, Elia is never avenged, and probably a fall out with Doran, but it's still a choice.

 

 

In the same vein that Dany continually rejects and accepts who she is, thus continually reinventing herself to fit into her environment, Sansa also does this quite well (though sometimes without even seeming aware of it). Most notable in these instances is that although a child of the North, she initially subscribes to the Faith of the Seven. The candles, the pretty statues and the more organised religion of the Faith match her ideas of beauty perfectly. However, she is later proven malleable with her beliefs while in King’s Landing and surrounded by strangers and enemies. In this case she finds the only connection to the North and her family—the godswood.

 

Very nicely said.

 

Dany also has nothing to reject in the beginning. Sansa can reject some of the more Northern mores but its still that with which she grew up. Dany has no such ties; or perhaps I should say that the things she grew up with are stories Viserys was feeding her about the might of the Targaryen kingdom and ancestry. But it's not something Dany can live as easily as Sansa can live in the Northern culture. It's easy to reject something once you've lived in it and know what it is. Dany does not remember a time when she was living in Westeros are part of the Targaryen family. There is, simply, nothing for her to reject. Her first cultural experience is with the Dothraki, so is it any surprise that she latches on to it so readily.

 

 

I think that her plight, more than any other’s, asks the question: are all those who wander are lost?

 

YES. I'm leaving Jon Snow aside for the second, but Dany is the last of her kind. In her mind and to her knowledge she is the last Targaryen. The very last. There is no place for her in this world because she simply has nothing to root her; getting back to Westeros is, at the very least, the last place that those "roots" were nested so it makes sense that this is where she's going.

 

So, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who in the 50th anniversary special, there is a line that sticks out that I instantly associated with Dany. Like Dany, The Doctor is the very last of his kind. The Time Lords are, to his knowledge, gone and dead. So what does he do? He wanders. He goes from place to place, from time to time, because there is no place to rest his head. But in the 50th he learns that maybe he isn't as alone as he thinks and the line is: "It's taken me so many years, so many lifetimes, but at last I know where I'm going. Where I've always been going. Home. The long way round."

 

 

The primary signal for womanhood in-universe seems to be menstruation and only that. Once the threshold has been passed, childhood is lost and cannot be reclaimed. The attainment of manhood seems more arbitrary than this. This potentially allows boys to experience either side of the age-line with freedoms that aren’t allowed to their female counterparts. Bran is four years younger than Sansa but he is already expected to watch a beheading without flinching or looking away. His older sisters aren’t even asked to the beheading

 

There really is no set check mark for when you become a man. It could be your first sexual experience, but like you pointed out Bran is expected to not play the boy at the beheading and "do not play the boy" is something Robb tells him frequently before going off to war. Yet Bran has still not experienced (nor is he likely to) sex. You go from boy to man by some understanding that you've simply moved into a new space, with very little (maybe nothing) in between. Women do have a middle stage- being a maid. A girl is not a maid and anyone who would sleep with or lust after a girl who has not yet flowered is considered perverse. A maid, by definition, is a middle stage in which she is no longer a child and can be looked at in terms of sexuality but is not a woman because she is not married and has not had sex. Stages for a woman are more clearly marked. Yet Viserys recognizes that Dany is still young in her first POV and wonders if Drogo will like her because of that; Illyrio waves it off by saying she's had her blood.

 

 

Compare it to this: She tried to imagine what it would feel like, when she first caught sight of the land she was born to rule. It will be as fair a shore as I have ever seen, I know it. How could it be otherwise?

 

And when Dany does arrive in Westeros, she's in for more disillusionment. A "fair shore?" Well if she lands at Dragonstone, it's never described in terms of great beauty but a cold, hard, stony place. It's not flowery and light. If she lands in King's Landing then it's smelly, crowded, poor, hungry, and (very possibly) been burnt to the ground by Cersei.

 

 

I wonder how many of the northern lords would support her claim to Winterfell and completely disregard her marriage.

 

I think we'd be surprised how many actually. If they could have definitive proof that the marriage was not consummated (and a medical examination would go a long way here, especially given Sansa's dislike for horse riding it's less likely that her hyman has been broken already) then the Northern lords might flock to her. As Mladen is quick to point out many times, Sansa never gets called Sansa Lannister except by Stannis in one instance.

[BearQueen87]

On the subjects of adaptability and malleability--One could say a great deal here, even if confined to the two characters we are currently considering. When is a person showing adaptability? When is she just uncertain and allowing things to drift? When do events take a strong turn, shoving her in a certain direction, or perhaps opening up opportunities that she didn't anticipate? I'll attempt to deal with some of these questions, centering on this quote from Kyoshi:

 

Both Sansa Stark and Daenerys Targaryen show toughness. They manage to survive. However--

 

I wouldn't say that Dany easily assimilates into Dothraki culture. Not only is it physically and emotionally hard for her, the whole thing continues to pose problems for her. She decides she wants to be more queen than khaleesi, but she continues, to some extent, to be seen and even to see herself as a khaleesi. She realizes that the Dothraki way will not do for a ruler who wants her people to love her. However, she maintains this idealized view of Drogo, not a fellow who ruled by  making himself loved. 

 

Dany's idea of "her people" shows a good bit of drift. The phrase means different things at different times to her. 

 

 

Maybe "easily" isn't the right word when discussing Dany and the Dothraki. Greedily? Readily? She does latch on to it with fervor once the first month or so passes. But you know what's interesting? It only passes because she has the dragon dream that eases her transition. And dragon dreams are assuredly not Dothraki; they are, in fact, a giant hallmark of the Targaryen lineage/Valaryian ruling class. She's able to drift into the Dothraki way of life as easily as she does only by way of a Targaryen moment.

[Kyoshi]

Thanks guys. Unfortunately, my posts keep getting swallowed. I'll have more to say later. You bring up interesting points of discussion. I have quite a bit to add.

I think I should give an extra week before posting the second essay. The forum keeps breaking and I don't think everyone has had the chance to keep up.

[Kyoshi]

On the subjects of adaptability and malleability--One could say a great deal here, even if confined to the two characters we are currently considering. When is a person showing adaptability? When is she just uncertain and allowing things to drift? When do events take a strong turn, shoving her in a certain direction, or perhaps opening up opportunities that she didn't anticipate? I'll attempt to deal with some of these questions, centering on this quote from Kyoshi:

 

Both Sansa Stark and Daenerys Targaryen show toughness. They manage to survive. However--

 

I wouldn't say that Dany easily assimilates into Dothraki culture. Not only is it physically and emotionally hard for her, the whole thing continues to pose problems for her. She decides she wants to be more queen than khaleesi, but she continues, to some extent, to be seen and even to see herself as a khaleesi. She realizes that the Dothraki way will not do for a ruler who wants her people to love her. However, she maintains this idealized view of Drogo, not a fellow who ruled by  making himself loved. 

 

Dany's idea of "her people" shows a good bit of drift. The phrase means different things at different times to her.

 

Perhaps the biggest error I made was comparing her to Jorah and Viserys--the only non-Dothraki people present in the khalasar. And also, in comparing her to early-Sansa and using the word "easily." I agree that it's difficult to tell when someone is being malleable/adaptable or simply existing.

 

I think that Dany's early idea of "her people" checks off the following categories:

• Have I found a steady home for the meantime?
• Do I serve some sort of purpose here?
• Am I happy?

Later (after she hatches the dragons ans wanders the red waste), I think it checks off the following:

• Are these people on the good or the bad side?
• Do they need my protection?
• Am I doing justice by including them in my entourage?
• Am I doing more good than bad?

I think that this is pretty consistent throughout the books. In the beginning she's just trying to fit into the group while later on she takes on the mother role and tries to protect everyone. It doesn't always succeed and even when it changes, I think she still navigates the idea within those confines.

 

Sansa starts as a true believer in the Seven. I don't think there is any malleability involved here. The young woman is following the faith of her mother. That is the proper thing for a lady to do. 

 

One of the disadvantages in analysing Sansa's religious beliefs is that we don't have her POV while she is still in WF. I wonder if she would have found the godswood there as menacing as Catelyn did. I wish to look into this further but I also think that the farther north one goes, the more life-like and menacing the weir trees become. I don't think that with her it was as simple as following the faith of her mother. Arya doesn't seem to subscribe to any religion prior to her stay in tHoBaW. And religion doesn't seem to be a big deal among the Westerosi, people practice with varying degrees of enthusiasm and often at convenient times. IMO, with Sansa it ties into her fairytale mentality. For example, she likes knights; knights can only be anointed when associated with the Seven.

 

Does Sansa ever pray in the godswood in KL? I suppose she does, but we never see her doing it. And she didn't start visiting the place in order to honor her northern heritage. She got a note: "Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home." This location becomes her meeting place with Dontos. Sansa reports on her prayers in the godswood. She does this when directly questioned by people who ask what she does there.  

 

In Feast, she mourns the fact that the godswood in the Eyrie doesn't have a weir tree. At this point, she seems to have shed belief in the Seven and adopted (at least to a small degree) the belief that the northern gods have some power. And she seems to seek their presence.

 

First off, nicely done Kyoshi! i found this essay to be very enjoyable. Sansa has never been a favorite of mine; I've grown to like her more as her story progresses but I take a very neutral stance on her. Her chapters can be enjoyable, but I enjoy others more, if that makes sense. Obviously I love Dany. So looking at these two to compare and contrast was great. :)

 

 

Thanks. I admit that Sansa isn't a character I like. So it was difficult for me to write this without being scathing.

 

I'm always shocked when I remember that Dany and Sansa are quite close in age. It's hard to articulate why except to say that in aGoT, Dany already seems more "mature" and "older" than Sansa. Life experiences have had to push Dany out of childhood (if indeed she ever had one). Dany has already started menstruating; she's being wed; and she'll have her first sexual experience by the end of her second POV. Sansa, by contrast, is just a little bit younger but none of those things have happened to her in aGoT. 

 

Yes, by the end of book 5, Sansa's life experiences have vastly changed and pushed her out of childhood quite fast.

 

I know exactly what you mean. Dany seems more perceptive in general. Jon is also like that--they watch people and seem to assess everything.

 

1. Lesson the first when you're a female in either Westeros or Essos: you are a commodity. Even though we learn of Dany's impending marriage to Khal Drogo while in her own POV, Dany is just as voiceless as Sansa Stark while Ned and King Robert discuss wedding her to Prince Joffery. Dany is not allowed to voice her own displeasure at wedding Drogo, and when she does, she is ill treated by Viserys. Sansa isn't consulted, asked, and we see neither Ned nor Cat inform their oldest daughter that she's been promised to the Prince. They are simply promised and given away be the older men in their household.

 

2. I would say that's correct. Jon Snow isn't making any marriage promises and isn't being passed off by Ned. In fact, Jon is making his own choices, namely to join the Night's Watch and get "well and truly drunk" for the first time in his life. Bran is still too young to be promised off to someone but there is still a streak of independence about him. He is forbidden to climb the wall of Winterfell and yet....Arya is an interesting case. She might be too young to entertain future marriage proposals, but it's not as though Ned doesn't recognize that this is the proper path for his youngest daughter to take someday. He tells that she'll marry a prince one day and bear his children and keep his castle, something that Arya turns her nose up at. Arya exists in a liminal space, in terms of gender. We often call her a tomboy and she ends up becoming a bit of an alpha male in her own little wolf pack. She's expected to act female in this world, but she rejects it favor of more masculine/male roles. 

 

Agreed. This keeps coming back over and over again: Arianne, Cersei, even Catelyn (who was given to one man and then his brother when the man died), Lysa, Rhaella, Myrcella etc. Robb is entrusted with Winterfell, and later a kingdom, even though he is a child. I don't have such high hopes for him as an adult, either. But I do have some hope for Sansa (if she stepped away from LF and was waned off his "lessons"). This practice robs everyone. In the case of Catelyn, she seems to have better leadership skills than her brother, but he is male and therefore the default heir. The same can be said of Daenerys and Viserys. Cersei wrongfully believes the opposite is true in her case (she ruins it for everyone). Strangely enough (or perhaps not), the characters who embrace femininity, whether subconsciously or not, are the ones who demonstrate the most potential in this regard.

 

Yup.

 

In terms of sexuality, it's obviously more apparent in Dany and Sansa's arcs as compared to Arya's but with Dany specifically, her sexual arc begins as one of terror, even before Drogo. Viserys has obviously been abusing his little sister (Dany's doesn't even flinch when he touches her, showing that this is probably a common occurrence in their lives) and while her first time with Drogo goes better than she thought it would, it's still one of fear of the unknown.

 

With Sansa specifically, sex is poetry. Or at least a poetic tale. It's not fear but rather a naive notion that sex is going to be lovely and wonderful and she'll bear the prince a son. It's not bloody or messy or painful in the songs.

 

I think both girls tend to romanticise things [most of the younger POVs IMO: Bran, Arianne, Jon. Arya is another one that's hard to place for me here. But it's been a while since I've read her chapters]. In Sansa's case it's knightly valour, sex, love, those kinds of things. This is from one of her chapters:

 

I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart,” she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical, and in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father.

“A dream? Truly? Did Prince Joffrey just go up to it and touch it with his bare hand and do it no harm?”

“No,” Sansa said. “He shot it with a golden arrow and brought it back for me.” In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part. Only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer.

 

With Dany it's "bigger" things. I think she fully expected everything to go smoothly when she started her abolition mission. Maybe she expected a little resistance, but only a little, and not so persistent.

 

I touch on the fairy tale aspect in the next essay. I also expand the beauty and the beast motif.

 

There is also a greater measure of choice in Robb and Quentyn's arcs. It's a choice that would have dire consequences, but a choice nonetheless.

 

Robb could choose (and in the end, does) not to wed a Frey girl. But, as Cat says, that would mean he can't cross at the Twins in the time of war. Robb makes the wiser choice to agree to the marriage, but it's still a choice he gets to make. Sansa is not consulted or given a choice.

 

Quentyn could choose to not go to Dany in Meereen. He could choose to not try so hard to meet her and inform her of Doran's machinations. He could choose to stop trying to see her when Dany spurns him. The consequences would be that the Lannisters remain on the throne, Elia is never avenged, and probably a fall out with Doran, but it's still a choice.

 

Thank you! That's the word I was looking for--choice. The boys had a choice. The girls didn't. That's why I find it so interesting. In the end, the ones who had a choice are the ones who couldn't escape.

 

YES. I'm leaving Jon Snow aside for the second, but Dany is the last of her kind. In her mind and to her knowledge she is the last Targaryen. The very last. There is no place for her in this world because she simply has nothing to root her; getting back to Westeros is, at the very least, the last place that those "roots" were nested so it makes sense that this is where she's going.

 

So, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who in the 50th anniversary special, there is a line that sticks out that I instantly associated with Dany. Like Dany, The Doctor is the very last of his kind. The Time Lords are, to his knowledge, gone and dead. So what does he do? He wanders. He goes from place to place, from time to time, because there is no place to rest his head. But in the 50th he learns that maybe he isn't as alone as he thinks and the line is: "It's taken me so many years, so many lifetimes, but at last I know where I'm going. Where I've always been going. Home. The long way round."

 

 

I really like this.

[MoIaF]

 

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

 

 

ESSAY I: “HOME IS BEHIND, THE WORLD AHEAD”

 

 

 

Really nicely done, Kyoshi!

 

 

Born in 284 and 286 AC, respectively, Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark find themselves with the misfortune of being girls in a patriarchal society.

 

This is a very striking comparison of these two young female protagonist, that they are so close in age yet quite different.

 

Dany is in her own right a Queen and a leader of men, she has very few people to rely on and must rely on herself more often than not. Sansa on the other hand with all the hardship she has suffered still has to rely in others primarily. She has of course become more independent as she grows and learns but she does not have the power over her own future the way Dany has.

 

If you look back to the time Dany was married to Drogon, she took it upon herself to take control of her future, knowing that if she did not do it, no one would do it for her. This mentality was bread from years on the run of having no one to rely on.

 

 

Quote

 

When we first meet Sansa, she has been recently betrothed to the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms—which is an attractive prospect by all appearances. She is naturally elated at the news. And although she admits to herself that she doesn’t know Joffrey very well, she is already in love with him because he is what she has always imagined her prince should be: tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. He’s the stuff of fairy tales and for the majority of the her early journey, Sansa seems to look at the world as a place divided between people like Joffrey and people opposite to what he represents. The only obstacle in this tale of bliss is that she and Joffrey are not to marry for years and years. But in the meantime they can enjoy a courtship escorted by knights, a queen and beautified by the background of a destination Sansa believes will be like a song—King’s Landing.

 

Fairy tales (and fairy tale mentality) play an interesting role in both Sansa and Dany's arc. Sansa's story is of a girl who realizes that the world is not a song through hardships. She still holds that some fairy tale ideas have to be true but on the whole she's learned to see that the world is far harsher. Dany is a girl who grew up knowing that the world was harsh, cold, and cruel yet she clings to her imagined fairy tale of her own life. The house with the red door, arms to keep her warm, a light in the window of every house, Daario coming to sweep her off her feet as she weds Hizzy, ect. Those are all fairy tale-like constructs that Dany can't get rid of even though she knows first hand and better than most that the world isn't a fairy tale.

 

We had discussed Dany and fairy tales in the re-read. It's an odd sort of thing with her. Fro Sansa she grew up adoring these songs and believing that is how life would be, until she learned the cruel reality of life and knew that it was not a song. She was forced to confront that reality and see the songs for what they really were, which is songs.

 

For Dany it's weird, she knows they are just fairy tales and accordingly acts in the reality of what she is experiencing, yet she still allows herself these daydream, knowing that they are just that. For her I think it's more a matter of escaping her reality, if only for just a minute.

 

Sansa's experience is more linear, she believed in them, learned that they weren't real and decided to let them go. Dany on the other hand, knew from the beginning they weren't real but dreamed of them nonetheless in an effort to escape the harsh reality of her life. It's like she doesn't buy into it, but want wants to buy into it.

 

 

Quote

 

I think that her plight, more than any other’s, asks the question: are all those who wander are lost?

 

YES. I'm leaving Jon Snow aside for the second, but Dany is the last of her kind. In her mind and to her knowledge she is the last Targaryen. The very last. There is no place for her in this world because she simply has nothing to root her; getting back to Westeros is, at the very least, the last place that those "roots" were nested so it makes sense that this is where she's going.

 

So, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who in the 50th anniversary special, there is a line that sticks out that I instantly associated with Dany. Like Dany, The Doctor is the very last of his kind. The Time Lords are, to his knowledge, gone and dead. So what does he do? He wanders. He goes from place to place, from time to time, because there is no place to rest his head. But in the 50th he learns that maybe he isn't as alone as he thinks and the line is: "It's taken me so many years, so many lifetimes, but at last I know where I'm going. Where I've always been going. Home. The long way round."

 

I love Doctor Who so hard and I love this analogy. That is all.

 

 

When we first meet Sansa, she has been recently betrothed to the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms—which is an attractive prospect by all appearances. She is naturally elated at the news. And although she admits to herself that she doesn’t know Joffrey very well, she is already in love with him because he is what she has always imagined her prince should be: tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. He’s the stuff of fairy tales and for the majority of the her early journey, Sansa seems to look at the world as a place divided between people like Joffrey and people opposite to what he represents. The only obstacle in this tale of bliss is that she and Joffrey are not to marry for years and years. But in the meantime they can enjoy a courtship escorted by knights, a queen and beautified by the background of a destination Sansa believes will be like a song—King’s Landing.

 

Daenerys, on the other hand, is introduced to us while being examined by her brother the way a brooding mare would be. She is subsequently sold to the barbarian khal of a Dothraki khalasar. This is not an attractive prospect at all and she is naturally distressed at the news. Where we saw Joffrey as a tall and handsome boy with golden hair, Daenerys’s betrothed is described as follows: Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. To make matters worse, the unsubtle transaction of her immediate wedding is sealed when she dons a golden collar.

 

I have to admit I didn't think about this parallel. Their stories both begin with betrothals, one is a supposed fairy tale come true and the other is a nightmare in real life.

[BearQueen87]

 

In Feast, she mourns the fact that the godswood in the Eyrie doesn't have a weir tree. At this point, she seems to have shed belief in the Seven and adopted (at least to a small degree) the belief that the northern gods have some power. And she seems to seek their presence.

 

Yeah, and I think that's part of a larger motif in the series as a whole--eventually, everyone is going to be called North. Sansa, slowly but surely, sheds those southron values and ideals that she once romanticized.

 

 

I touch on the fairy tale aspect in the next essay. I also expand the beauty and the beast motif.

 

 

Ooooh. I'm looking forward to that a lot.

[SeanF]

Bear Queen/MOIAF How sad must that be? Not just to think you're the last of your kind, but the last of your kind that there will ever be. The Targaryens are like a family tree in reverse, with their numbers being whittled down to just one person who's hunted by assassins, and who thinks she's barren. She's like The Last of the Giants.