94 replies to this topic

[Barba]

Here are weeks when we get Eddard chapter:

Oct. 2- Eddard(I) Jon(I) Catelyn(II)
Oct. 9- Arya(I) Bran(II) Tyrion(I)
Oct. 16- Jon(II) Daenerys(II) Eddard(II)
Oct. 23- Tyrion(II) Catelyn(III) Sansa(I)
Oct. 30- Eddard(III) Bran(III) Catelyn(IV)
Nov. 6- Jon(III) Eddard(IV) Tyrion(III)
Nov. 20- Eddard(V) Jon(IV) Eddard(VI)
Nov. 27- Catelyn(V) Sansa(II) Eddard(VII)
Dec. 4- Tyrion(IV) Arya(III) Eddard(VIII)
Dec. 11- Catelyn(VI) Eddard(IX) Daenerys(IV)
Dec. 18- Bran(V) Tyrion(V) Eddard(X)
Jan. 1- Eddard(XI) Sansa(III) Eddard(XII)
Jan. 8- Daenerys(V) Eddard(XIII) Jon(VI)
Jan. 15- Eddard(XIV) Arya(IV) Sansa(IV)
Feb. 5- Eddard(XV) Catelyn(IX) Jon(VIII)





EDDARD (I)

Introduced: Ser Jaime Lannister (the Kingslayer, knight of the Kingsguard and later Lord Commander, twin of Cersei and brother of Tyrion, son of Lord Tywin);

Sandor Clegane (The Hound, sworn shield of Prince Joffrey, brother of Ser Gregor, later Kingsguard; then presumed dead near the town of Saltpans, however he is most likely the grave digger we see on the island);

Tyrion Lannister (the Imp, Tyrion Halfman, younger brother of Cersei and Jaime, later Hand of the King, then convicted of the murder of his nephew King Joffrey; escaped from King's Landing with the help of his brother and Varys);

King Robert Baratheon* (King of the Seven Kingdoms, The Usurper, former Lord of Storm’s End, former ward with Ned Stark of Lord Jon Arryn; fathered several bastards, but no true-born children);

Queen Cersei Lannister (Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, wife of King Robert, sister of Tyrion and twin of Jaime, mother of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen; later Queen Regent to Joffrey and Tommen, until she is taken into custody by the High Septon for incest and other crimes).

First Mentioned: Lord Howland Reed (a crannogman, Lord of Greywater Watch, bannerman to Lord Eddard, the only survivor [except for Ned] at the Tower of Joy);

Brandon Stark* (older brother of Eddard Stark, betrothed to Catelyn Tully, slain by command of King Aerys Targaryen);

Lyanna Stark* (younger sister of Brandon and Eddard, loved by Robert Baratheon, supposedly raped by Prince Rhaegar, died at the Tower of Joy in the mountains of Dorne);

Lord Rickard Stark* (former Lord of Winterfell, father of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen, burned alive by command of King Aerys Targaryen after watching his son Brandon die).

Ned watches as the King’s party enters Winterfell. He notes the weight Robert Baratheon has put on, having not seen him in nine years since Balon Greyjoy’s rebellion. Robert asks to be taken to the crypts to pay his respects, even though the Queen protests. Ned realizes that besides the weight gain, drinking and wenching were taking their toll on the King. In the crypts, they pass the ancient Kings of the North and approach the stone likenesses of Lord Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. Robert loved Lyanna, and seeing her statue, he is bothered that she was not buried in a beautiful place. Eddard states that she was a Stark of Winterfell and belongs in the crypt. Ned tells Robert that her dying wish had been to be returned home. Ned remembers her plea "Promise me, Ned" while she lay dying in a bed ofblood and roses, and how the fear left her face when he gave his word.

He recalls how Howland Reed found him holding Lyanna in his arms, full of grief. Robert tells Ned of Jon Arryn’s death, how he had been healthy at the Tourney on Joffrey’s name day, but was dead 2 weeks later. Robert talks of Lysa Arryn fleeing King’s Landing with her sickly son, and how he had intended to foster the boy with Lord Tywin Lannister. King Robert also mentions that young Robert Arryn will not be Warden of the East. Robert then asks Eddard to be Hand of the King, something Ned wanted nothing to do with. He tells Robert he needs time to consider it. Robert also wants to marry Sansa and Joffrey, to unite the great houses of Baratheon and Stark. As they are about to leave the Crypts, Ned is filled with a sense of foreboding.

Edited by Barba, 02 October 2006 - 01:22 AM.

[Tarthking]

Several things that jumped out at me during the reread.

1) Lots of images of iron and stone in this chapter, and I'm not sure why. They seem to have a polarity / duality similar to fire and ice throughout the series, but I am not sure about that. I'm sure that they represent something, because they are repeated throughout the book. Any thoughts on this, and why they appear so frequently in this chapter?

2) This is our first meeting with Cersei, and I felt sympathetic to her situation here. She has a legitimate gripe that they had traveled a long time and should get situated, and Robert blows her off to visit Lyanna's grave. Of course, we see this from Ned's POV, so Robert's actions are seen in a positive light. But I think Cersei really had the right idea, and Robert was being selfish. Also, do married women take on their husband's name in Westeros? She is always referred to as Cersei Lannister instead of Cersei Baratheon. I recall Catelyn being called Catelyn Stark throughout the series.

3) Martin does a fine job of crafting the sequence about Lyanna. He mentions that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell before he writes our first "Promise me, Ned" sequence. Thus, Martin leaves the reader with the impression that Ned's promise involved the burial.

[Wired_Irony]

Thank you Barba for starting this. I totally forgot. It has been a busy weekend.

[Ealasaid]

I am beginning to remember why I avoided reading Eddard's chapters.  They are all so sad.

The questions:

1.   I liked this chapter the first time I read more than subsquent readings.   I am overwhelmed by the sadness in Ned's life.  Ned keeps his thoughts to himself and only lets go of them when caught off balance or dreaming.  Even then, he is so tightly wound that he cannot leak his secrets.  He lost his father and brother when he was of an age to have known them both well.  Next he is married to his brother's intended.  And his 20 year old sister dies far from home in his arms.  What terrible losses and stress.  I am beginning to think Ned has more than one secret he is( well - was) keeping.  I see Eddard throughout the chapter with wet cold spots on his hose where he knelt in the snow to kiss Cersei's hand.

2.   Foresadowing -  The reader is told in this chapter that the banner of House Baratheon is a crowned stag, so the reader knows the fear that the stag's tine in the direwolf's throat caused.  So we are led to believe that House Baratheon will be the downfall of House Stark. This is enhanced by Robert's offer of the Hand position to Ned - taking him away from the safety of the North.
      The black holes of the crypt are waiting for Ned and at least one of his children.


3.  GRRM makes good use of the "entrance" device in naming and describing some people -  the Hound's scarred face and the "stunted little man' Tyrion Lannister.  I think now that Robert encompasses all that has gone wrong in the realm - he describes the south as a banquet where everyone is fat, drunk and rich  Only he is, and he fails to see it.  The crown is bankrupt, trouble is on Robert's doorstep -- and the North and East stir uneasily.

Several things I have wondered about

Ned relates the Promise Me scene with Lyanna.. and at the top of page 36 (US ed) the text states "They had found him still holding her body.."  Who is "they?"

And when Robert explains that he had promised to foster little Robert Ayrrn with Tywin Lannister, Ned thinks that he would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than Lord Tywin, "some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word."  I have always wondered about that little bit there.  How had Tywin Lannister wounded Ned?

Edited by Ealasaid, 02 October 2006 - 09:54 PM.

[AFX022]

During this reread I liked this chapter for a different reason than when I read it for the first time.  This is the first chapter, and one of the best when we get a good look at King Robert Baratheon.  Since their are no POV chapters from Robert this is about as close as we get.
     The theme that sticks out most from him, is his love for Lyanna.  There seem to be only two options of Robert, one from Ned, that remembers him fondley.  The second opinion seems to come from everyone else, and concludes that he is not a very good king.  After rereading this chapter it seems that if Lyanna had not died, Robert would have made a better ruler.  If Robert had a strong, supportive woman working with him (instead of Ceresi working against him), he might have made a better ruler.  I felt bad for Robert, having lost his young love, seems to have soured him and made him into a different man than Ned remembers.
     As for Ned, I felt very bad that he is being pressured to leave Winterfell, and the sense of forboading is very strong.  It made the forshadowing from antler in the direwolves throat very true.  Overall, I liked the chapter and interaction we get from Ned and Robert.

[Barba]

Wired_Irony, on Oct 2 2006, 15.26, said:

Thank you Barba for starting this. I totally forgot. It has been a busy weekend.

Don't mention it. But I'll discuss chapters later. It is busy to me too

[Memory Lane]

One thing that never hit before when I read this chapter was how the whole "Robert was a man who knew how to take his pleasures well" and "Robert's love and teariness for Lyanna" are counterposed. I think this was intended to cast some depth on Robert's character, and to explain a common wound they have between them.

[Ealasaid]

AFX022, on Oct 2 2006, 22.12, said:

During this reread I liked this chapter for a different reason than when I read it for the first time.  This is the first chapter, and one of the best when we get a good look at King Robert Baratheon.  Since their are no POV chapters from Robert this is about as close as we get.
     The theme that sticks out most from him, is his love for Lyanna.  There seem to be only two options of Robert, one from Ned, that remembers him fondley.  The second opinion seems to come from everyone else, and concludes that he is not a very good king.  After rereading this chapter it seems that if Lyanna had not died, Robert would have made a better ruler.  If Robert had a strong, supportive woman working with him (instead of Ceresi working against him), he might have made a better ruler.  I felt bad for Robert, having lost his young love, seems to have soured him and made him into a different man than Ned remembers.
     As for Ned, I felt very bad that he is being pressured to leave Winterfell, and the sense of forboading is very strong.  It made the forshadowing from antler in the direwolves throat very true.  Overall, I liked the chapter and interaction we get from Ned and Robert.

Good point.  I think Cersei wants him drunk, so he'll pass out and leave her alone.

[Fiddler's Green]

Ealasaid, on Oct 2 2006, 21.48, said:

And when Robert explains that he had promised to foster little Robert Ayrrn with Tywin Lannister, Ned thinks that he would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than Lord Tywin, "some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word."  I have always wondered about that little bit there.  How had Tywin Lannister wounded Ned?

I always read this as Ned referring to wounds Tywin believed he had suffered, as we know him to be extraordinarily prickly when it comes to slights.  Probably having to do with Ned racing to KL during the sack and, in effect, throwing Jaime off of the Throne.   Another idea, that I just had and there is no textual evidence for, is that Tywin could very well be steamed that Rhaegar wanted and got Lyanna, when we all know that Tywin had always meant him for Cersei.

[DBaron]

First the questions:

1. Favorite characters, and impressions.
Eddard was one of favorite characters from the first book, so it is a little hard rereading his chapters.  Initially he was my favorite character, and I have always had a hard time trying to understand his fate.  Regarding him and Robert, they dont seem to have much in common at all so the interactions between Ned and Robert seemed strained at best.  I wanted too, but never really could, like Robert.  I guess Martin intended for it to be that way.  It would be nice at some point in the future to get a chapter describing a young Robert and Ned, and seeing the interactions between these two in their youths (Eeiyrie, or even better Harrenhall).  I would like to see the young Robert, the one Ned and others remebers fondly.  

2.  Foreshadowing, good quotes?
Well Ned is overcome by dread as he leaves the vaults.  Also the crypts seem to be very important in the first two books, especially the mention of the ghosts being free to roam (at least the ones that lost their swords).  Lastly, Robert at one point says, "May the others take my wife".  If only.

3.  Plot development
Ned is invited to go kings landings, taking him away from his true duty of ruling in the North, and the others. Lysa Arryn plotline introduced.   Robert's weaknesses as a king are hinted at.  Also Sansa and Joffery wedding.  Ned's stupid promise.   (It pisses me off that we never find out what it was, especially since he was always going on about it).  And some background development of Lyanna and Brandon.  

@ Ealasaid
You said Lyanna was 20, but I thought she was sixteen when she died?

I think 'they' refer to Ned and Howland Reed.    

The wounds he is refering to might be the fate of Elias children, or Tywins actions during the rebellion or even Jamies actions during the rebellion or a combination of all three.  I think Ned knows what happened to the children, since he was there.  

@tarthking
I dont know how they deal with Maiden names and marriages.  Never noticed it before.  Cersei is always Cersei Lannister it seems, but Lysa Tully seems to be called Lysa Arryn.  Catelyn is almost always Catelyn Stark or Cat, but at least once she considers herself Catelyn Tully Stark.  

One thing I wondered about in this chapter is Tywins desire to take Robert Arryn as a foster child.   I suspect it is because he desires a political tool against Lysa and Jon Arryn, and would seem a natural thing to do.  Every lord does it.  But does it indicate that he knew that Jon Arryn was on to Cersei and Jamies incest also and desired some way to avert it getting out?    There is always some debate on whether or not he knew about it.

[Fiddler's Green]

DBaron, on Oct 4 2006, 03.02, said:

@ Ealasaid
You said Lyanna was 20, but I thought she was sixteen when she died?

I think 'they' refer to Ned and Howland Reed.

Lyanna was 16.

As for the "they", Howland is certainly one of them, but note that "they" found Eddard holding Lyanna's body, leavign us to conclude that there was another living person at the ToJ.  Most speculation assumes it to be Wylla, the wet-nurse and supposedly Jon Snow's nother.  I think that fits the most and makes sense, but there is (or at least was) someone else besides Eddard and Reed who knows what happened there.

[Tarthking]

Tarthking, on Oct 2 2006, 13.43, said:

Several things that jumped out at me during the reread.

1) Lots of images of iron and stone in this chapter, and I'm not sure why. They seem to have a polarity / duality similar to fire and ice throughout the series, but I am not sure about that. I'm sure that they represent something, because they are repeated throughout the book. Any thoughts on this, and why they appear so frequently in this chapter?

Looking at it more closely, the stone imagery applies specifically to Winterfell itself and to the Stark and direwolf statutes in the crypt. In fact, in later mentions of Winterfell, Martin almost always mentions its stone walls. I"m starting to think that stone is connected to the Starks in some way. In the following Jon chapter, Martin even describes Benjen with stone imagery, as he is "gaunt as a mountain crag." If stone and Starks are linked, it makes for a very interesting reinterpretation of Bran's prophesy involving the giant with stone armor later in this book.

Iron references are much more diverse. Iron is mentioned four times in this chapter: when discussing Greyjoy's rebellion, Balon is referred to as "the self-proclaimed King of the Iron Islands; in the same paragraph, Robert has a beard "as course and black as iron wire"; the iron longswords on the statues in the crypt; Robert complains about sitting on that "damnable iron chair."

I remember reading a theory in the Details, Details, Details thread that the iron longswords are actually keeping the spirits of the dead contained in the tombs. At some point (I don't remember when), the swords are taken off Lord Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna's statutes, and then someone has a dream about those three shortly thereafter.

I'm still not sure what it all means, although I have a few half-formed ideas. I'm interested in other people thoughts and interpretations of the use of imagery in the series.

[Ealasaid]

DBaron, on Oct 4 2006, 03.02, said:

@ Ealasaid
You said Lyanna was 20, but I thought she was sixteen when she died?

You are right.  Brandon was 20.  Lyanna was 16. Pardons.

Probably Howland Red and a wet nurse or maester for the birthing.  They had to have some servants there.  I don't think that Rhaeger and Lyanna were used to doing the wash....

Edited by Ealasaid, 04 October 2006 - 07:30 PM.

[The Adequate Jon]

I now find it interesting that there was no mention of Eddard's mother in the crypts.  Was she buried somewhere else?  Maybe she's still alive. :)

On the symbolism of iron: the iron swords leave red rust stains on the old statues.  Maybe iron is connected to fire or blood somehow.

[Barba]

The Adequate Jon, on Oct 5 2006, 08.14, said:

I now find it interesting that there was no mention of Eddard's mother in the crypts.  Was she buried somewhere else?  Maybe she's still alive. :)

On the symbolism of iron: the iron swords leave red rust stains on the old statues.  Maybe iron is connected to fire or blood somehow.

George was asked about Ned's mother. His answer was:"She was Lady Stark. She died"
About Iron and stone connecting with ice and fire: Didn't Reed kids swore oath by iron and stone, and Ice and fire. Got no clue what does it mean.

I did notice some lines that might be foreshadowing. When Ned said: "Winters are hard, but the Starks will endure. We always have." I sure hope he is right.

I liked the chapter. Introduction of the King, their history together, and King's relationship with his court. I liked the way chapter beginned-with announcing Baratheon banner (so you could figure out dead shewolf-omen), and ended-With Ned's bad feeling about leaving North.

[DBaron]

Barba, on Oct 5 2006, 19.29, said:

I did notice some lines that might be foreshadowing. When Ned said: "Winters are hard, but the Starks will endure. We always have." I sure hope he is right.

Sigh...I have always been a Stark fan, but it just gets worse and worse for them as the series progesses.    At this point I have decided that Martin can't write a book in this series without somehow finding a way to further humilate or ruin the Starks.   That line you mentioned and Jojens are one of the few things that still give some hope.

Also, Wylla was at the TOJ?

Edited by DBaron, 06 October 2006 - 12:05 AM.

[Barba]

DBaron, on Oct 6 2006, 00.04, said:

Also, Wylla was at the TOJ?

Wasn't said. She was his wet nurse, so it could be

[Barba]

Ok, I've just seen this in the Details thread, but check it out. Ned and Robert are talking:

Quote

Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”

“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.

So Robert by 'they' defenetley means people, but maybe Martin ment that king is hinding under the name Snow.

Edited by Barba, 08 October 2006 - 10:00 AM.

[roeh61]

Tarthking, on Oct 2 2006, 15.43, said:

Several things that jumped out at me during the reread.

1) Lots of images of iron and stone in this chapter, and I'm not sure why. They seem to have a polarity / duality similar to fire and ice throughout the series, but I am not sure about that. I'm sure that they represent something, because they are repeated throughout the book. Any thoughts on this, and why they appear so frequently in this chapter?

2) This is our first meeting with Cersei, and I felt sympathetic to her situation here. She has a legitimate gripe that they had traveled a long time and should get situated, and Robert blows her off to visit Lyanna's grave. Of course, we see this from Ned's POV, so Robert's actions are seen in a positive light. But I think Cersei really had the right idea, and Robert was being selfish. Also, do married women take on their husband's name in Westeros? She is always referred to as Cersei Lannister instead of Cersei Baratheon. I recall Catelyn being called Catelyn Stark throughout the series.

3) Martin does a fine job of crafting the sequence about Lyanna. He mentions that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell before he writes our first "Promise me, Ned" sequence. Thus, Martin leaves the reader with the impression that Ned's promise involved the burial.

1.  I thought the iron and stone where references to the first men, whom the Starks are decended from.

2.  Why does the king have to unpack the truck?  he has servants to do that!

3.  Is this another lie by Ned?

[Nightflyer]

Fiddler's Green, on Oct 3 2006, 17.06, said:

I always read this as Ned referring to wounds Tywin believed he had suffered, as we know him to be extraordinarily prickly when it comes to slights.  Probably having to do with Ned racing to KL during the sack and, in effect, throwing Jaime off of the Throne.   Another idea, that I just had and there is no textual evidence for, is that Tywin could very well be steamed that Rhaegar wanted and got Lyanna, when we all know that Tywin had always meant him for Cersei.

To my way of thinking Ned is referring to the Lannister men-at-arms murdering Rhaegars young children. Ned came upon the scene shortly thereafter.  This is why he would not trust Tywin or any of his family with children.