94 replies to this topic

[Ealasaid]

The Adequate Jon, on Oct 5 2006, 08.14, said:

I now find it interesting that there was no mention of Eddard's mother in the crypts.  Was she buried somewhere else?  Maybe she's still alive. :)

That is interesting.  Perhaps she was buried in her family's crypt.  Something to remember to ask GRRM at the next reading.

Barba, on Oct 5 2006, 18.29, said:

I did notice some lines that might be foreshadowing. When Ned said: "Winters are hard, but the Starks will endure. We always have." I sure hope he is right.

Jojen Reed says the wolves will return.  I have always taken that to mean a Stark will survive and return to Winterfell.

[Ealasaid]

Barba, on Oct 8 2006, 09.59, said:

Ok, I've just seen this in the Details thread, but check it out. Ned and Robert are talking:
So Robert by 'they' defenetley means people, but maybe Martin ment that king is hinding under the name Snow.

That is such a wonderful idea.  I love it. And I am deeply jealous I didn't catch it.  But we have met no other Snows have we. Rivers, Stones, but no Snows.  I wonder why.  I think it would be pushing it if the king or queen turns out to be someone we have never met.

Edited by Ealasaid, 12 October 2006 - 01:24 PM.

[The Adequate Jon]

Ealasaid, on Oct 12 2006, 14.24, said:

That is such a wonderful idea.  I love it. And I am deeply jealous I didn't catch it.  But we have met no other Snows have we. Rivers, Stones, but no Snows.  I wonder why.  I think it would be pushing it if the king or queen turns out to be someone we have never met.

Don't forget Ramsay Snow.  But, officially, he's a Bolton now.

[Tarthking]

@DBaron, re: maiden names:

I think Martin made Cersei a special case because it easily separates her into the Lannister camp. The reader has enough problems keeping everyone's allegiances straight, why confuse us on something as basic to the series as Cersei. It's also further evidence of Cersei's growing pride, which Catelyn alludes to earlier.


@Adequate Jon, re: iron, rust, and connection to fire

You might be right. It occurs to me that the character most closely associated with iron is Stannis, and he's clearly joined into the fire contingent with Melisandre. But I'm not sure it's just that, since iron, as a symbol or image, shows up in so many different areas in the book. Maybe Martin's using it like metaphoric alchemy? Iron (Stannis) + Fire (Melisandre) melts. Iron (Greyjoys) + Water/Ice (Drowned God) rusts. Just an idea I'm tossing around...

roeh61, on Oct 8 2006, 09.17, said:

1.  I thought the iron and stone where references to the first men, whom the Starks are decended from.

2.  Why does the king have to unpack the truck?  he has servants to do that!

3.  Is this another lie by Ned?

1. Could be, but I thought iron was brought over by the Andals, which were different from the First Men. I could easily be wrong. I find the Westeros pre-history horribly confusing, and therefore don't pay much attention to it.

2. It's not about unpacking the trunk. It's about proper leadership and courtesy. A king should make sure his group is properly situated before he leaves them. It shows he cares. Robert, on the other hand, doesn't think about others at all, and basically left his entire contingent standing in the courtyard while he went into crypt.

3. No. I meant it is more of a writer's trick by Martin to lead the reader to an incorrect conclusion.

[Barba]

Eddard (II)  

Introduced: Alyn* (guardsman at Winterfell, later one of the Hand’s household guard, later part of Lord Beric Dondarrion’s party);

Ser Boros Blount (Kingsguard, divested of his white cloak and later restored to the Kingsguard);

Ser Meryn Trant (Kingsguard of King Robert, then King Joffrey and then King Tommen).

First Mentioned: Wylla (woman named by Eddard as the mother of Jon Snow, and confirmed by Edric Dayne; wet nurse to both Jon and Edric).

Legends: Baelor the Blessed (the Beloved, King Baelor I Targaryen, septon and king, prayed for the return of dragons, saved Prince Aemon from the snake pit in Dorne; once betrothed to his sister Daena Targaryen before ascending to the Iron Throne, after which he annulled the betrothal and had all his sisters kept “under comfortable confinement” in the Maidenvault; possibly killed by his uncle Viserys II who was Hand at the time);

King Viserys II Targaryen (younger brother of King Aegon III [called Aegon the Dragonbane], son of Princess Rhaenyra, uncle of King Daeron I [the Young Dragon] and King Baelor the Beloved, served as Hand to King Baelor and possibly killed his nephew; father of King Aegon IV, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys <NOTE: King Viserys II has yet to be mentioned in any of the novels to the best of my knowledge, but his importance in the lineage of the Targaryens is essential>).




Ned is woken early and told Robert requested he join him in riding. They are at the Neck, and Ned and Robert pass barrows of the First Men. Robert starts asking Ned about the woman who bore him Jon Snow, having forgotten (or never known?) her name. Ned tells him the woman’s name was Wylla, but leaves it at that. The King then shows Ned a letter from Lord Varys that reveals Dany’s wedding to Khal Drogo. The source was Ser Jorah Mormont. Robert wants to send men to kill Dany, however Ned says that the slaughter of innocents is not honorable; but the King’s hatred of Targaryens was legendary, and he retorts by asking Ned, "how many times did Rhaegar rape Lyanna?"

The discussion turns to the naming of a new Warden of the East, and Ned surmises that Jaime Lannister was promised the position. He cautions that that would give one family half the armies of the Kingdom, as the Wardens of both East and West would be Lannisters. Ned remembers the events after the Trident, when he came to King’s Landing to find Jaime Lannister sitting upon the Iron Throne. He recalls how Mad King Aerys’ last mistake was to let Tywin Lannister’s army of 12,000 enter King’s Landing  professing loyalty (the Lannisters bidded their time and remained neutral during the war until after the Trident was won). Robert is unmoved.

Edited by Barba, 16 October 2006 - 03:39 AM.

[The Adequate Jon]

Timeline:

Ned II is about three weeks after Jon II.  This is an estimate assuming that the trip to KL will take about 3 months.  They are actually somewhere in the Barrowlands north of the Neck and travelling very slowly.  This chapter has some clues about the time relationships to Dany's chapters.  It probably takes place 1 to 2 months after Dany II.  There needs to be enough time for a message to go from Pentos to KL to the Barrowlands.  I don't think Varys uses ravens to get messages about Dany and Vis.

[Memory Lane]

Some things I noticed this time around:

1. Ned actually laughs, in response to Robert's comment about the Giant wheelhouse. Kind of a contrast to his last comment on laughter in his last chapter, when he made the joke that laughter freezes in the throats during the winter.

2. Robert at least believes that Ned, at some point, told him the name of Jon's supposed mother.  Considering that Ned was loathe to speak about her, and refused to even talk about her with Robert when Robert brought it up, this is kind of strange.

3. Robert is still full of hatred and thirst for revenge against the Targaryens, even after nigh 14 years. We also see an interesting little bit of dialogue that has been commented on, in which Robert says, "What did any Targaryens ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!" Ned replies with "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," then immediately thinks of Lyanna whispering 'Promise Me, Ned.'

Besides establishing that the Promise to Lyanna was apparently important enough to Ned to be mentioned twice in two viewpoint chapters, his response is kind of interesting, in that he immediately moves to cool down Robert's hatred for Rhaegar at this point, whereas prior in the conversation he did not, only arguing that Robert should not kill Dany.

4. The description of Jaime at the King's Landing at the time when Ned reached there after the Sack seems chock-full of possible symbolic meaning and foreshadowing, along with some other connections. First, Ned describes Jaime sitting on the throne, with Aerys bleeding to death below him (possibly foreshadowing Robert's own death at the hand of the Lannisters), and, in a curious expression, describes "How he glittered!", which is similar, in an odd way, to Jon's thought in his first chapter that Jaime looked like a king. Then, we know that as Ned rode into the hall, Lannister men surrounded him, until Jaime laughed and said he was merely warming the seat.

It's kind of amusing, in that, in a sense, by the later books, Jaime is indirectly (through his children, who are the actual kings) sitting on the throne.

[DBaron]

Impressions, now and then?
   Can’t really remember, but I suspect I liked it.  There is a lot of political intrigue.  Rereading has been difficult because it hints and teases at a lot of things, and doesn’t really answer anything.  Even now, most of it is open to debate.  We get information on several of the key characters and events in the series, albeit in tantalizing small amounts.  (Rheager & Lyanna, Neds Promise, Trident and the war, the Lannisters, Jamie and his oath breaking, Jon Arryn, Daenerys and the Dothraki, fate of Rheagers children, Varys and Jorah.)   Some of these things are still mysteries, others seem to be deliberately slanted or misleading, and the info is sparse you could spin it several different ways.   Not too mention that it’s easy to get caught up in all the conspiracies and miss the other little things in the chapter, which I am sure I have.

Foreshadowing.
In the first few paragraphs there is a passage about Eddards words being blown away by the wind, and the king not hearing him, and it seems to end the same when Robert blows off Neds warning about Jamie Lannister.

Robert tells Ned, let the others take your honor.  Which I suppose they did in way, since he is always going on the shame he feels in living his lies.   It seems to me he sacrificed his honor at the end too, by telling another lie.  Also Ned dies.  

Ned remarks that he felt like the Dragon skulls were watching them.  IIRC almost every character who encounters them has the same response.  No idea what the significance is.  

The Lannister’s power is growing with Jamie becoming warden of the east.  Suprised he took the title, as he often cares little for responsibilities.   There is a lot you can take away from these final few paragraphs about Jamie, but like guardsman bass said, Jamie on the throne must be sign of the Lannister’s ambition, and the lengths they will go to achieve it.  I don’t understand the significance of why he would ‘glitter’ though either.    King’s blood is mentioned.    

Finally, Ned mentions that he knows his place is the north, and that going south is pointless, yet he resigns himself to the fact anyway.

Edited by DBaron, 18 October 2006 - 01:40 AM.

[Ealasaid]

I find this chapter so disheartening, I really have trouble reading it.  I have difficulty believing that Robert and Ned ever had anything in common.  Robert lets Ned know right off he isn't going to listen to him.  I just wish Ned would turn around and go back to WInterfell.

[Tears of Lys]

Of course, opposites do attract.  I often hung around with much crazier girls when I was single.  Funnily enough, when I was with a quieter friend, I'd be the crazy one.  That ole' yin and yang thang.

It was very clear throughout the whole chapter, though, that Ned should stay at Winterfell.  Especially with Bran being in a coma, (I think.)  I remember thinking, Okay, so he is the king.  If they're such great friends, even the king should understand.  What's he gonna do, have him executed?  Of course, the whole issue with Jon Arryn's death pushed him into leaving.   :cry:

[Barba]

If ned was not the Hand, Jamie would be. All honor and stuff would piss Ned off (especially with Jamie) so I find accepting office of the Hand as real Ned's decision

What seems wrong in this chapter to me is the fact that Jamie was sitting in the throne. It seems to me he never wanted it, and that decision was wrong (EDIT: The decision martin made when he decided to put this in the book). It could be because he just killed the man he swore to protect, and his head was not working right or the fact that he was very impulsive and violent before he had lost his hand, but it still seems to me just something Martin inserted just to make us hate Jamie.

Edited by Barba, 23 October 2006 - 09:17 AM.

[Barba]

Just on more thing to add

First sentence

Quote

The summons came in the hour before the dawn, when the world was still and grey.

feels strong and kinda reminds me on first fight against Others : War for Dawn. Could be that something similar will happen again, something like the long night. Only this time it won't last for Generations, but couple of years Maximum :-)

[Barba]

Eddard (III)  

Introduced: Vayon Poole* (Steward of Winterfell and later for the Hand);

Ser Raymun Darry* (bannerman to the Tullys, fought for the Targaryens during the war and lost 3 brothers at the Trident).

Arya is found by Jory, to Ned’s relief, because had the Lannisters’ men found her she would surely have been killed. She is taken before the King and Queen, and tells her side of the events. Joffrey then tells his side, lying the whole time. Sansa pretends not to remember what happened, leaving it Joff’s word against Arya’s. The King indicates that it is settled, but the Queen won’t quit so easily. She calls for the hide of a direwolf, and Robert is disgusted, but does nothing to stop her. Since Nymeria has not been found, Cersei decrees that Lady be killed. Ned pleads with Robert, and finally tells him that he should at least have the courage to carry out the sentence himself, but the King just walks off. Ned kills Lady himself. Afterwards, the Hound rides back with Mycah’s dead body on his horse.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Initially, I thought that he was in a difficult spot... who to believe?  Having read later scenes in which Robert admits that he knew Joffrey lied, I just get annoyed... now I see Robert as a weak king... more interested in enjoying himself and avoiding trouble than in doing the right thing.  

Ned, for the first time, realizes the link between his kids and the wolves... and that makes this one of the saddest scenes in the books for me.  Realization of what is important, too late to do anything about it.

That aside, Cersei once again goes for the short-term victory... she pushes for punishment of the Starks, where it gains her nothing but a little vengeance.  It sets the Starks at open odds with the Queen, poisons the presumptive marriage of Joffrey/Sansa, but salves her dignity.  Big win for her...  :bang:

Edited by Maester Yobjascz, 30 October 2006 - 01:26 PM.

[Memory Lane]

If you go back to Tyrion I, you can see a bit of foreshadowing that adds a new layer to the death of Sansa's wolf; the Queen saying that "she will not have them brought south with them to King's Landing." Still, she is a bit  of an arrogant bitch.

[The Adequate Jon]

On the first read, I just hated Cercei, Joffrey, Sansa and Robert.  I admired Ned for having the intestinal fortitude to do the killing himself.  On the reread, I wish that Ned would have just sent lady north alive.  He defies Cercei anyway by not giving her the wolf pelt.  Why not just send Lady north?  Cercei would never find out.  Especially after that whole conversation in Bran's first chapter about looking into a man's eyes and hearing his last words, and if you can't bring yourself to kill him, maybe he doesn't desrve to die.  Lady definitely didn't deserve to die.  I also like to think about how Sansa might have been treated differently in Kingslanding if Lady would have been there to protect her.  However, Lady would probably have been killed along with the rest of the Stark household.

I liked Renly in this chapter.  Too bad Ned didn't accept his offer later on.

Edited by The Adequate Jon, 31 October 2006 - 10:57 AM.

[Memory Lane]

The Adequate Jon, on Oct 31 2006, 08.55, said:

On the first read, I just hated Cercei, Joffrey, Sansa and Robert.  I admired Ned for having the intestinal fortitude to do the killing himself.  On the reread, I wish that Ned would have just sent lady north alive.  He defies Cercei anyway by not giving her the wolf pelt.  Why not just send Lady north?  Cercei would never find out.  Especially after that whole conversation in Bran's first chapter about looking into a man's eyes and hearing his last words, and if you can't bring yourself to kill him, maybe he doesn't desrve to die.  Lady definitely didn't deserve to die.  I also like to think about how Sansa might have been treated differently in Kingslanding if Lady would have been there to protect her.  However, Lady would probably have been killed along with the rest of the Stark household.

I liked Renly in this chapter.  Too bad Ned didn't accept his offer later on.

I think it's part of the whole "Ned won't lie" kind of thing. I think it was a disturbing sign of weakness on his part; Jon has already mentioned the significance of the pups to him earlier on, and he simply capitulated to the Lannister's will.

[Barba]

Finally re-read it.

First time I've read this chapter I remember hating Sansa for the rest of the book. Then I started to feel sorry for her in CoK, while being captive and suffering insults from Joff.

The Adequate Jon, on Oct 31 2006, 10.55, said:

Lady definitely didn't deserve to die.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I always considered Wolfpups some sort of connection of Stark kids to their familly. all Jon's talk in first bran chapter:"Your children were ment to have these pups", and stuff. In this chapter Sansa distanced herself from her familly. She knew Arya was saying the truth, and she didn't confirm it. She 'betrayed' them on certain level, and killed all Starkish connections with it.

I don't consider wolf pups as caracters. I consider them magical incarnations of Stark kids. That is why Lady was polite, sweet and beautiful-Because sansa Stark was like that. Same is with Ricon-Wild, Arya-lost, Jon-different, outsider, Grey Wind-Kill me, but i don't know. Sansa chose another path, and Lady died.

from SSM, on October 05, 2001, said:

Archon Meeting (October 5-7)
Submitted By: Castellan Hauberk

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." (Note: I was hoping someone else would bring this up as I didn't want to do any hornblowing... since Terra brought it up, but didn't recall the wording I felt the need. If anyone remembers his words differently I'll gladly recant.)

Also interesting quote from Robert:

Quote

The king was in no mood for more argument. “Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

Sandor Clegane

Edited by Barba, 02 November 2006 - 04:42 PM.

[Memory Lane]

Good catch on the dog/Sandor Clegane dealie!

The whole "Sansa no longer being a true Stark" may have ramnifications on her future (I wonder if it hints that she'll never truly become a Lady at Winterfell).

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Males inherit ahead of females in the North, for Sansa to be the Lady of Winterfell, Bran and Rickon has to die, not to mention Jon whom Robb made his heir.