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Heresy 158


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Welcome to Heresy 158, and its lively take on the Song of Ice and Fire.



So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running continuously for over three years?



Basically, it is a free-flowing and currently very fast flowing discussion, or series of discussions and arguments, very largely but not exclusively concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, the white walkers and the possible Stark connection to both – or in short, to Winter. Heresy is not a particular theory far less a belief or set of beliefs, formulated proclaimed and bitterly defended, but rather cheerful application of chaos theory



The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy comes from its very diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued - freely and because it’s a strong thread it can support discussion and argument that might simply vanish in the maelstrom of the general forum, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and 1189] archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even, the Gods save us, heroic geology.



In short it’s a way of thinking that looks at the story holistically and openly challenges rigidity and some of those easy assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.



GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, transcribed below does emphasise that he is taking the story through five related story arcs, not one. The story has obviously changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, far less depend upon it for its conclusion, but rather that particular mystery is just one plot device among many in an altogether much larger and much richer story.



If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.



Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.



Beyond that, read on.


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And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:



October 1993



Dear Ralph,



Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.



As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.



Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.



The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.



While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.



The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.



The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.



Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.



This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.



I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.



Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.



Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.



Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.



Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.



Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.



Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.



[7 Lines Redacted]



But that's the second book...



I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.



All best,


George R.R. Martin





What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:




Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

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By popular request the opening theme for this edition is the third eye - is its opening a good thing or it it quite literally baleful?



Its something which most immediately impacts on Bran of course and the question of identity. We see him gradually going over to the dark side, but is that Bran or is it the sliver of ice from the snow queen's mirror lodged in Kai's [third?] eye?


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A lillte background on the Third eye to start things off .Known also as the inner eye it is a mystical and esoteric concept referring to a speculative invisible eye which provides perception beyond ordinary sight.The third eye is also the gate that leads to inner realms and spaces of higher consciousness. It is often associated with religious visions, clairvoyance, the ability to observe chakras and auras, precognition, and out-of-body experiences. People who claim to have the capacity to utilize their third eyes are sometimes known as seers.In this story we also see this concept personified in the person of the 3eyed Raven/Crow who seems to be the Avatar of "the Sight" in this story.We know that for certain people he visits during incidences of sensory deprivation or that point where one is in shut in darkness.Jojen was ill and Bran was in a coma when they were visited.



"Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake."



Interesting thing with Bran and his experiance with the Crow and what seems a bit contradictory to what he's being thought by BR with regards to "how far" and the limitations put on him.



We have some of Bran's vision that i think is important:



"I'm flying he said in delight i'm flying."


"I've noticed" said the three-eyed Crow and took to the air flapping his wings in his face,slowing him blinding him.


He faltered in the air as it's pinnions beat against his cheeks It's beak stabbed at him fiercely and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the center of his forehead,between his forhead.


"What are you doing?"


The Crow opened it's beak and cawed at him a shrill scream of fear,



This is a bit from Bran's coma vision that i wanted to highlight.At one point he started to fly to high or too well or maybe it was that he(Bran) also delighted in it.But the Crow seemed very clearly to want to halt Bran's going to far.This is also echoed in another one of Bran's Crow dream



On this night he dreamed of the weirwood.It was looking at him with its deep red eyes ,calling to him with its twisted wooded mouth,and from its pale branches the three eyed crow came flapping,pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords ACOK,Bran p,255



The above same sense that the 3ec is trying to keep Bran within certain limits,in this one it seemed he's trying to obstruct communication between Bran and the Weirwood tree who i feel is BR and company.



I've said before that i believe Bran was not suppose to go to BR and that his place is and was always WF.I think BR and the lil tree huggers are using him for some other purpose and unknowing to him (Bran) would be led down a path of some pretty crappy stuff.BR and co want Bran to go beyond have no boundaries.Thus far the only warning he has gotten was about calling Ned back from the dead and i think that has more to do with it not being Bran's place to do so.Which i will go into a bit later.



"Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran"



Though the route may have been different it seems at one point GRRM had it in mind for Jon and Bran to be at odds and i think this is very consistent and on par with the Oak and Holly King myths of these two individuals in the story and them also being on opposite sides.



I can't say that Bran will know what he's doing,he's young and i can see him being manipulated into doing things because he has a gift/power without really understanding if it's good or bad or being fooled into thinking thus.But what is worrisome to me is that in staying true to the myth we may see ( and i hope not) Jon having to check Bran. I'm hopeful Jon can do it without killing him.



or both of them need to eventually unite and check Bloodraven and Coldhands who i think have to go.

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Can someone help me? I found a post that was useful in one of these topics with a spoiler tag that listed links and descriptions of corresponding Heresy threads. It was awesome, and I should bookmark stuff more often.

I wanted to read discussions on the Coldhands= NK because Leaf's comment about his age led me to believe this.

Was also looking for anyone's thoughts on the "Bran I am your father I mean monster" quote. I thought at first GRRM was making a Star Wars reference, but I'm guessing you guys would be the ones to go to for the answers. :)

Oh yeah- I can't find the post anymore, but hoping someone in charge knows where it is so I can read through for the next 12 hrs

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Can someone help me? I found a post that was useful in one of these topics with a spoiler tag that listed links and descriptions of corresponding Heresy threads. It was awesome, and I should bookmark stuff more often.

I wanted to read discussions on the Coldhands= NK because Leaf's comment about his age led me to believe this.

Was also looking for anyone's thoughts on the "Bran I am your father I mean monster" quote. I thought at first GRRM was making a Star Wars reference, but I'm guessing you guys would be the ones to go to for the answers. :)

Oh yeah- I can't find the post anymore, but hoping someone in charge knows where it is so I can read through for the next 12 hrs

This?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98456-the-heretics-guide-to-heresy/

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Can someone help me? I found a post that was useful in one of these topics with a spoiler tag that listed links and descriptions of corresponding Heresy threads. It was awesome, and I should bookmark stuff more often.

I wanted to read discussions on the Coldhands= NK because Leaf's comment about his age led me to believe this.

Was also looking for anyone's thoughts on the "Bran I am your father I mean monster" quote. I thought at first GRRM was making a Star Wars reference, but I'm guessing you guys would be the ones to go to for the answers. :)

Oh yeah- I can't find the post anymore, but hoping someone in charge knows where it is so I can read through for the next 12 hrs

Hi there,Mother of Dragons the Guide listed in the OP has all the links to Heresy.

These are some of the links where we discussed Coldhands

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106824-heresy-107/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107297-heresy-108/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123864-heresy-148

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I think this is going to be a really good topic. Who was it who was saying a while back that the Three Eyed Crow may just be a harbinger-entity that visits people to open their third eye? I thought that was a really cool idea. I think it came in response to me saying the 3EC was a Stark-family harbinger of Coming Winter. But maybe not... Anyhoo, nice to change gears a little bit.

Long post to catch up from H157....

class on Saturday? :ack:

Yup lol, Saturday isn't exactly a "party day" for me... I spend my weekends traveling to different reservations to teach American Indian languages, history, culture, that sorta stuff. Finished early today :)

This might be ungenerous of me, but I sometimes suspect GRRM is scrambling to construct his GRRMarillion, in a way. JRRT had already spent 20-ish years building the language and mythologies of Middle Earth before The Hobbit, then another 20ish years until LOTR, then had another 20ish years to work on it before he died. Unfortunately, competing with 60 years of world-building isn't any easy task.. even for GRRM.

Sometimes the truth isn't generous, eh? I am of course grateful for his attempt, but there comes a time when you have to stop shaping the clay and toss it in the kiln.

I don't think the little tidbits are nothing, I actually think they're the most important part. When we get our next shocking SOIAF moments (and we will), all of these small phrases and single words we've been pouring over will make complete sense in context, of that I have no doubt. The whole story isn't told in a few dozen lines in AGOT 39 (Ned fought the KG at the ToJ where Lyanna died giving birth to Rhaegar's baby, who is therefor the Hidden King Jon).

There are some tidbits that make me wonder. I appreciate it all in terms of world-building, don't get me wrong, but there are some details that seem a bit superfluous. The mythos of Yi Ti, the Gemstone Emperors, the Sworn Sword (haha half-joke), Dany's runny bowel movements (haha complete-joke, that part was awesome)....

To your later point, didn't GRRM state all the clues needed to puzzle out Jon's parentage are in the first book?

Hence the awesomeness of the Heresy threads. I don't think anyone here expects everyone to be safe in their Hobbit holes at the end, and everyone in their rightful place (albeit at a cost).

Agreed friend, it's all about heresy: for the old gods and the new, the questions great and small, the game and the song, and the mainstream theories, the heresies, and the cracked pots littering the road between. :cheers:

So does it matter that GRRM chose to make BR a Targ/FM? What seems to matter more is that BR has his identity now as the last Greenseer and the TER, despite his recent lineage, and maybe not because of it. If it’s his blood that makes him so, it’s not his recent Targ blood, but something that seems to go back even earlier than his FM blood.
GRRM is challenging the perception of identity, and therefore expectations, at every turn. Disguises, glamours, nature vs. nurture, it’s all there.

Great point. And the reason I broke this reply into so many sections ;) Obviously, I'm not complaining for these levels of complexity and examination at the human (as well as inhuman?) heart. Theon alone makes the series worth reading. And the same can be said for every other character, except Cat and Brienne (I jest, of course!). I've always found Bran's stories engaging, but as MaesterSam pointed out last thread, his arc is now a lot more diabolical and interesting than it once was -- even for me, who'd already been a fan. In case you're waiting for a "but," there isn't one. This is a fawning-over-the-author's-brilliance sort of paragraph. The way he exposes the evolution of identity, leading us down the aisle on a guided tour through the innermost of turmoils, is without parallel in fantasy, perhaps in fiction, and rivals some of the most dramatic character shifts we've ever experienced or seen in life or history.

Two great quotes:
It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?
Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Exactly. I can't help but think he's already led us to the latter answers. Jaime and Tyrion are great examples of memories overpowering blood and position. I'd say Jon and Dany are great examples of something more integral than mere 'blood' guiding their identities, in spite of their obvious shaping by blood and birth.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

There's no denying it takes balls to play with the identities of so many main protagonists, so fundamentally, and irrevocably. I just finished another Abercrombie book (Best Served Cold), and one of the biggest dissapointments I have in his writing, being so accustomed to GRRM now, is that I never felt any of the main characters were truly in any sort of peril. And Abercrombie is thought of as being a brutally realistic writer! Not only has GRRM accomplished that, he's made it clear that death is one of the simpler, gentler forms, that 'peril' might take. While the series remains technically "fantasy," there's no denying its harsh realism.

Jon’s blood (nature) may certainly matter, but will his identity/upbringing as a Stark (nurture) prevail or be destroyed? Did Varys and Illyrio nurture a perfect King? And for all Dany’s certainty about her “blood” even that has some suspicions but that’s a (huge) debate for another time.

There does seem to be some precedent that “nature/blood” will prevail in the end. We certainly see that with Brynden Rivers.

I think you've just described the heart (tree) of the matter. GRRM is of the school of thought that the heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing. I think we all quite agree he chose a ripe topic. Your Jon and Dany examples are perfect. And I'd say Varys and Illyrio did indeed create a perfect king. Brynden is a special case, as one's greenseer blood doesn't seem an easy thing to suppress or maintain control over. The blood makes them greenseers, and they have little choice in the matter when it comes down to it. Brynden had a hard time acting "normal" (if ever he tried), when he served as hand, because he was destined to be tree food.

So, credit where credit is due, love the examples, back to the heart (tree) of the matter. What exemplifies the heart in conflict with itself more than the heart itself? It represents obvious mortality (nature), as well as the seat of our emotions. Emotion has teeth in Westeros, as magic and prophecy come into play, but at the heart of it, it all comes back to the heart. The corrupted heart in the HotU, the heart of winter, etc. The glow of hot red blood in life, and the cold white bones of death. The heart tree grows from them both. The tree of life and death.

I could ramble on about this stuff for hours LOL, so I'll stop here and get to some other comments...

No worries - I'm not really selling it. Not my theory. Still, I don't think BC was suggesting the ronin role as an institutional tradition, but rather as an alternative way of understanding the motivations and objectives of the KG when they met Ned Stark. And there is at least some "precedent" for the concept in Martin's fictional universe, as the Dothraki bloodriders seem to fit. But I agree with you - the culture and role of the KG is quite different.

Sure. Just raises some concerns is all. Out of character for the most honorable Sword of the Morning... 3 KG not even attempting to make their way to their new king... GRRM confirming they knew "what" was in that tower, whatever it was...

Sadly, so far we don't have a POV who saw Rhaegar thrashing wildly on the floor about an hour earlier...

His inner prince, huddled deep in the hidden corners of his heart, strumming a mindless tune on an imaginary harp... :lol:

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"He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands. His wolf came sprinting at his heels."

The second passage is very interesting - Bran actively avoided the heart tree before his fall. Contrast this with Jon, who is willing to give up Winterfell rather than harm the tree.

The second passage is very interesting - Bran actively avoided the heart tree before his fall. Contrast this with Jon, who is willing to give up Winterfell rather than harm the tree.

I am actually very interested in Bran's arc going forward, much more so than in the earlier books. While we have learned a lot from his POV, I always found him one of the less interesting characters- probably b/c he's so young, and spends an entire book traveling the wilderness. But now that he is in the cave, GRRM is starting to develop the character more, and not in a positive direction. Aside from the abomination of taking over a person against their will, he is also constantly lying to everyone around him when he pretends to be Hodor. Basically, he is spying on Meera and Jojen.

. . .

It seems we never truly consider the possibility of Arya ending up on the wrong team. Personally, it would break my heart- but it sure would be an interesting plot twist if she did anything other than return to Westeros and fight for Team Stark.

That passage comes a couple of pages before the info that Ned banished Bran to the Godswood for the night. And he obviously didn't like the heart tree, which is why they found him up the sentinel in the morning. Can't say for sure just how early Bran was exposed to the 'third eye' but if I had to guess, I'd say that was it, and is why he dislikes the face in the heart tree.

Then there's the matter, also, of identities. Again from the interview JNR linked in last thread, (your bolded sentences?)

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

Arya is certainly in a great deal of "danger". I've always read her as getting pared down to the essentials (she really has absolutely no intention of becoming no-one, not in the sense that the Kindly Man demands, at any rate). She has Needle, and she has, imo, the essential Arya, the Night Wolf. Though with the warnings Bran receives about not letting himself become the wolf, that seems more dangerous to me than it did in the past.

Another might be Sansa; she's maybe taking the opposite course at this point, starting with the loss of Lady. Losing her wolf is quite dangerous, I've always connected it with the beginnings of her unreliability as a narrator and her memory loss. . . . when asked to testify about the quarrel between Arya and Joffrey, Sansa claims she can't remember. And as a reward, or rather punishment. . . loses Lady, and begins to lose who she is.

Yup lol, Saturday isn't exactly a "party day" for me... I spend my weekends traveling to different reservations to teach American Indian languages, history, culture, that sorta stuff. Finished early today :)

. . . . . . .I think you've just described the heart (tree) of the matter. GRRM is of the school of thought that the heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing. I think we all quite agree he chose a ripe topic. Your Jon and Dany examples are perfect. And I'd say Varys and Illyrio did indeed create a perfect king. Brynden is a special case, as one's greenseer blood doesn't seem an easy thing to suppress or maintain control over. The blood makes them greenseers, and they have little choice in the matter when it comes down to it. Brynden had a hard time acting "normal" (if ever he tried), when he served as hand, because he was destined to be tree food.

So, credit where credit is due, love the examples, back to the heart (tree) of the matter. What exemplifies the heart in conflict with itself more than the heart itself? It represents obvious mortality (nature), as well as the seat of our emotions. Emotion has teeth in Westeros, as magic and prophecy come into play, but at the heart of it, it all comes back to the heart. The corrupted heart in the HotU, the heart of winter, etc. The glow of hot red blood in life, and the cold white bones of death. The heart tree grows from them both. The tree of life and death.

. . .

And for that particular issue, I might point again to the identity of Lady Stoneheart. . . who began her very cold way to where she is now with her anger over Jon.

And also, perhaps, in that moment in AGOT where Cat and Luwin are working on Ned to get him to decide to serve as Hand, and out pops. . . "The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly.

For all Ned's honor and goodness, there really is something of the cold Kings of Winter in him.

ETA: and that sort of Saturday class might not be so bad.

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And for that particular issue, I might point again to the identity of Lady Stoneheart. . . who began her very cold way to where she is now with her anger over Jon.

And also, perhaps, in that moment in AGOT where Cat and Luwin are working on Ned to get him to decide to serve as Hand, and out pops. . . "The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly.

For all Ned's honor and goodness, there really is something of the cold Kings of Winter in him.

Indeed there is. Though a quiet wolf, he's still a wolf. If truly "words are wind" in Westeros, they are ice cold and their eyes shine like bright blue stars.

ETA: and that sort of Saturday class might not be so bad.

Ha! :cheers: Folks seem to like it. More a labor of love than work.

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...

So, credit where credit is due, love the examples, back to the heart (tree) of the matter. What exemplifies the heart in conflict with itself more than the heart itself? It represents obvious mortality (nature), as well as the seat of our emotions. Emotion has teeth in Westeros, as magic and prophecy come into play, but at the heart of it, it all comes back to the heart. The corrupted heart in the HotU, the heart of winter, etc. The glow of hot red blood in life, and the cold white bones of death. The heart tree grows from them both. The tree of life and death.

I could ramble on about this stuff for hours LOL, so I'll stop here and get to some other comments...

cheers! :cheers:

I've been putting together some thoughts along these lines - which has to do with the topic of Bran, actually - I'll try to sum it up.

We've talked about the corrupted blue human heart in Dany's dream being a corruption of magic, an abuse by humans. Frankly, the fiery heart of R'hollor can be seen in the same light, pun intended. Abuses of the "nature" that I was just talking about, as well as the abuses of actual nature, natural law, whatever natural elemental magicking is in play, etc.

I think old Turtle has another game in play: the Noble Savage. He's dabbled in it before of course, but he's neck deep in it this time around. The concept that man is naturally good vs the concept that man is naturally ignoble. I don't have time to cite all my notes, you may be pleased to hear, but I'm sure you guys are all familiar with Lord of the Flies, Dickens, Rousseau etc. Beauty and the Beast. Ha.

Anyway, the humans in ASOIAF are for the most part the most Ignoble Savages ever put to paper. Bloodthirsty, greedy, immoral. This leads us (well me) to consider that old Turtle is trying to balance that with the archetype of the Noble Savage in the form of the CotF or even the Others.

What we've seen so far in the books is that anytime a group oversteps their natural bounds, they become even worse human beings. Mel. The Undying. And the damned self-righteousness that comes with the power is part of the moral breakdown.

And yeah, I think we'll be seeing it even more with Bran, who has an innate moral compass (he knows it doesn't feel right to warg Hodor, he knows he shouldn't tell anyone) yet he still does it, selfishly. He's being taught to ignore that moral compass because he has a gift. Or rather, there are no classes on ethics taught by Professor Three Eye. Even wildlings (great examples of the Noble Savage in that lot) get a schooling on the morality of skinchanging.

We don't get much of a moral code from either the CotF or the Others, and perhaps that is the point. Judging a starving man for becoming a cannibal, for example, is a huge topic central to the concept of the Noble (or Ignoble) Savage. When/how should natural law trump nurtured morality? That sort of thing.

The third eye might mean magic that shouldn't be messed with. Just as acquiring and abusing blue/ice magic has corrupted the Undying and red/fire magic has corrupted Mel & Co, we already see the green magic chipping away at Bran's humanity. It's a Pandora's Box because he is innocent and unable to see the consequences, and to entice a young broken boy to merge with trees that travels through time like the Tardis... is simply horrific. From a human standpoint.

I have some other thoughts about eyes, but don't want to make this too long. More tomorrow.

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cheers! :cheers:

I've been putting together some thoughts along these lines - which has to do with the topic of Bran, actually - I'll try to sum it up.

We've talked about the corrupted blue human heart in Dany's dream being a corruption of magic, an abuse by humans. Frankly, the fiery heart of R'hollor can be seen in the same light, pun intended. Abuses of the "nature" that I was just talking about, as well as the abuses of actual nature, natural law, whatever natural elemental magicking is in play, etc.

I think old Turtle has another game in play: the Noble Savage. He's dabbled in it before of course, but he's neck deep in it this time around. The concept that man is naturally good vs the concept that man is naturally ignoble. I don't have time to cite all my notes, you may be pleased to hear, but I'm sure you guys are all familiar with Lord of the Flies, Dickens, Rousseau etc. Beauty and the Beast. Ha.

Anyway, the humans in ASOIAF are for the most part the most Ignoble Savages ever put to paper. Bloodthirsty, greedy, immoral. This leads us (well me) to consider that old Turtle is trying to balance that with the archetype of the Noble Savage in the form of the CotF or even the Others.

What we've seen so far in the books is that anytime a group oversteps their natural bounds, they become even worse human beings. Mel. The Undying. And the damned self-righteousness that comes with the power is part of the moral breakdown.

And yeah, I think we'll be seeing it even more with Bran, who has an innate moral compass (he knows it doesn't feel right to warg Hodor, he knows he shouldn't tell anyone) yet he still does it, selfishly. He's being taught to ignore that moral compass because he has a gift. Or rather, there are no classes on ethics taught by Professor Three Eye. Even wildlings (great examples of the Noble Savage in that lot) get a schooling on the morality of skinchanging.

The third eye might mean magic that shouldn't be messed with. Just as acquiring and abusing blue/ice magic has corrupted the Undying and red/fire magic has corrupted Mel & Co, we already see the green magic chipping away at Bran's humanity. It's a Pandora's Box because he is innocent and unable to see the consequences, and to entice a young broken boy to merge with trees that travels through time like the Tardis... is simply horrific. From a human standpoint.

I have some other thoughts about eyes, but don't want to make this too long. More tomorrow.

Parts of this i agree with,but it can be argued that the 3ec via the dreams have been trying to keep Bran within certain bounds.When Bran started to go beyond a certain limits he kept Bran in check.Even with Jojen as a teacher in some respects Bran was being kept within certain bounds.The Reeds were his guidance on this,but i don't think what they've attempted to teach him would suffice

In the cave with BR who i'm sure knows Bran is Skinchanging Hodor against his will hasn't given him guidelines.I don't think the 3ec is BR by the way

If we look at Bran's rationalization of taking Hodor " He knows it's me" it can be viewed as an example of him " flying to high,to much,exulting in it"

This is where i believe the person Jojen was sent to was Rickon,the Wild Wolf to teach him,guide him he's the wolf that seemed more chained to Earth. I mean Shaggy was literally shut up.But he's the one who reall didn't have a voice,or one worth listening to because he was little and dismissable.

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Parts of this i agree with,but it can be argued that the 3ec via the dreams have been trying to keep Bran within certain bounds.When Bran started to go beyond a certain limits he kept Bran in check.Even with Jojen as a teacher in some respects Bran was being kept within certain bounds.The Reeds were his guidance on this,but i don't think what they've attempted to teach him would suffice

In the cave with BR who i'm sure knows Bran is Skinchanging Hodor against his will hasn't given him guidelines.I don't think the 3ec is BR by the way

If we look at Bran's rationalization of taking Hodor " He knows it's me" it can be viewed as an example of him " flying to high,to much,exulting in it"

This is where i believe the person Jojen was sent to was Rickon,the Wild Wolf to teach him,guide him he's the wolf that seemed more chained to Earth. I mean Shaggy was literally shut up.But he's the one who reall didn't have a voice,or one worth listening to because he was little and dismissable.

Funny you should say that...

“Is he afraid?” Ned asked.

“A little,” she admitted. “He is only three.”

Ned frowned. “He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.”

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Then there's the matter, also, of identities. Again from the interview JNR linked in last thread, (your bolded sentences?)

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

Arya is certainly in a great deal of "danger". I've always read her as getting pared down to the essentials (she really has absolutely no intention of becoming no-one, not in the sense that the Kindly Man demands, at any rate). She has Needle, and she has, imo, the essential Arya, the Night Wolf. Though with the warnings Bran receives about not letting himself become the wolf, that seems more dangerous to me than it did in the past.

Another might be Sansa; she's maybe taking the opposite course at this point, starting with the loss of Lady. Losing her wolf is quite dangerous, I've always connected it with the beginnings of her unreliability as a narrator and her memory loss. . . . when asked to testify about the quarrel between Arya and Joffrey, Sansa claims she can't remember. And as a reward, or rather punishment. . . loses Lady, and begins to lose who she is.

I agree that this interview by GRRM is very telling and note in particular that last line:

When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

What he's talking about here is the subversion of the original identity, although Theon is referenced [as a semi-Stark] this is very largely about the Starks and if we turn again to the synopsis, right at the beginning GRRM says: Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid.

And I think that this is important. The Starks are not only being killed and chased out of Winterfell but individually their identities are being challenged:

Sansa thought she was to become a queen and then becomes nothing - worse through wilfullness in pursuing that ambition she inadvertently betrays her family and kills her father. But then comes the snowflake communion, the "rebuilding of Winterfell" and a much harder character as she re-asserts herself.

Arya; yes, GRRM focuses both both on the dangers of losing her identity and her refusal to do so.

Bran; by contrast, appears to be embracing the darkness, but what then? The reference in the second synopsis to maester and greenseer working together suggests that he will regain his identity but that's clearly a struggle yet to come.

Rickon; its hard to tell. He's an afterthought to the original synopsis and probably has mostly been shipped off to Skagos precisely because he doesn't have a major role in what's going, although as Wolfmaid points out he likewise has an identity issue in being taken over by his wolf.

And so to Jon; set against this background it seems all the more important that he eventually recognises his identity as a son of Winterfell and that the theory of his being a lost Targaryen prince is a far too superficial "resolution" of his identity.

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,,, Rickon; its hard to tell. He's an afterthought to the original synopsis and probably has mostly been shipped off to Skagos precisely because he doesn't have a major role in what's going, although as Wolfmaid points out he likewise has an identity issue in being taken over by his wolf....

Rickon will turn out to be a major figure. It is known.

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Rickon is with Osha & she'll help his development . He needs to be grounded first & who better than Osha Sometimes the very young can easily have their senses expanded-their 3 rd eye open & it is frightening to them Rickon knew about Ned 1st

Damn I can t type on this Nook so bear with me.

Osha knows what the Starks have forgotten or a least quite a bit of it

As people become "civilized" they loose a natural ability to truly know and feel at one with the natural world & supernatural as well.

Wolfmaid, I think Osha was sent for Rickon

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