Heresy 158

[PrettyPig]

Recovering from the flu here, so apologies if my thoughts are all over the place.

Love the astute observation of the opening of Bran's third eye not necessarily being a good thing. This may be glaringly obvious to everyone, but we have the definite connection of Bran's third eye (henceforth known as B3E) to that of the Hindu god Shiva.

I have thought about the parallels with ASOIAF here and there but never really touched on it in threads....but it's really cool when you take a look.

Shiva is one of three primary gods of Hinduism, and often considered the Supreme God.

Shiva is limitless and formless, but can take on other forms to suit needs. (Those who have seen him in form say he is fair, like a mountain made of ice)

His benevolent form is that of an omniscent yogi who lives atop a mountain.

His fearsome form is that of a demon slayer.

Shiva is portrayed as having a serpent around his neck, a crescent moon adorning his head, a holy river flowing from his hair, carrying both a weapon (trident) and an instrument (drum).

However, his most iconic feature is his third eye, which is the basis for his common name "The Destroyer" or "The Transformer". Shiva's third eye remain closed, but if he is angered he will open the eye and reduce all material existence to ashes. There is also a linguistic connection to the third eye and word "mother" and depending on which translation you use can mean "three mothers" as well as "three eyes".

Finally, there is another connection between Shiva and the god Rudra, "the god of the roaring storm" - in Vedic scripture these are actually the same entity manifesting in different ways. Interesting parallel to Euron as the "first storm and the last" as well as Euron keeping his "black eye filled with malice" shielded.

Anyway, I see many similarities between the Hindu mythology and what GRRM is showing us with Bloodraven, Euron, and now Bran - I think what we'll see is a paradoxical deity that can be both good and bad, be innately connected with the other great deities, encompass many forms, and ultimately be the dude that rains destruction of epic scale down upon the world.

Disclaimer: this is all med-fueled, I may have no idea what I'm even saying right now.

[Black Crow]

That sort of pairing for Jon and Arya I can see, but not a romantic one. I think BC thinks/wants it to happen, but I'm of the mind their physical relationship will never move beyond hair-mussing.

Not so much wanting to see it happen for its own sake but rather seeing no reason why it shouldn't especially given that its linked in the synopsis to the revelation as to who Jon's mother was. Its also consistent with their current separation and Arya's eventual return not as a child but as a confident young woman - a veritable Nymeria.

[Black Crow]

Recovering from the flu here, so apologies if my thoughts are all over the place.

Love the astute observation of the opening of Bran's third eye not necessarily being a good thing. This may be glaringly obvious to everyone, but we have the definite connection of Bran's third eye (henceforth known as B3E) to that of the Hindu god Shiva.

I have thought about the parallels with ASOIAF here and there but never really touched on it in threads....but it's really cool when you take a look.

Shiva is one of three primary gods of Hinduism, and often considered the Supreme God.

Shiva is limitless and formless, but can take on other forms to suit needs. (Those who have seen him in form say he is fair, like a mountain made of ice)

His benevolent form is that of an omniscent yogi who lives atop a mountain.

His fearsome form is that of a demon slayer.

Shiva is portrayed as having a serpent around his neck, a crescent moon adorning his head, a holy river flowing from his hair, carrying both a weapon (trident) and an instrument (drum).

However, his most iconic feature is his third eye, which is the basis for his common name "The Destroyer" or "The Transformer". Shiva's third eye remain closed, but if he is angered he will open the eye and reduce all material existence to ashes. There is also a linguistic connection to the third eye and word "mother" and depending on which translation you use can mean "three mothers" as well as "three eyes".

Finally, there is another connection between Shiva and the god Rudra, "the god of the roaring storm" - in Vedic scripture these are actually the same entity manifesting in different ways. Interesting parallel to Euron as the "first storm and the last" as well as Euron keeping his "black eye filled with malice" shielded.

Anyway, I see many similarities between the Hindu mythology and what GRRM is showing us with Bloodraven, Euron, and now Bran - I think what we'll see is a paradoxical deity that can be both good and bad, be innately connected with the other great deities, encompass many forms, and ultimately be the dude that rains destruction of epic scale down upon the world.

Disclaimer: this is all med-fueled, I may have no idea what I'm even saying right now.

Makes sense to me. No matter how explicit the Shiva connection might turn out to be I think that viewing [sorry] the eye as a gift that can be used for either good or for great evil is consistent with the story thus far.

[Mother of Dragons]

Thank you, Wolfmaid :) at the rate you guys go, I may be caught up & ready to participate in 6-9 months!

I have some ideas I want to read your take on, but don't want to be redundant if was already covered. I laughed at the hair color/eyebrow discussion; I was thinking about how annoying that was literally a few days ago. I'm rewatching the show before the new season comes up.

ETA: I hope you won't get too annoyed with me, but do you know of any links arguing whether Jojen is still alive or not? I tried google searching as well as on the forum, but I didn't find anyone using textual evidence either way- just "you need to read between the lines" or "it's in there if you pick it apart". (WHERE? What lines?!)

If you don't know, don't trouble yourself, I'll skim through things on time off, plus I have plenty of CH material to keep me busy now :)

Hi there,Mother of Dragons the Guide listed in the OP has all the links to Heresy.

These are some of the links where we discussed Coldhands

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106824-heresy-107/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107297-heresy-108/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123864-heresy-148

[Urrax2]

...Shiva's third eye remain closed, but if he is angered he will open the eye and reduce all material existence to ashes. ...

Now that's a whammy.

[Urrax2]

.. Its also consistent with their current separation and Arya's eventual return not as a child but as a confident young woman - a veritable Nymeria.

Yeah, check out Maisie on the new magazine cover in GRRM's Not a Blog. She's turning into a confident-looking young woman indeed.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm happy with a reconciliation between Tyrion and Sansa and agree that would fit with the synopsis, which also heavily implies that Jon and Arya will get it on. Likewise I agree that one way or another Bran aint coming home, but neither I think is Rickon. He wasn't part of the original synopsis so that whilst he undoubtedly exists I really don't see a major role. Rather I'd be more inclined to suspect him turning savage and having to be put down, which would also contribute to the advertised bittersweet ending.

True Rickin wasn't a part of the synopsis but i think GRRM has designed a pivitol role for him. If he wasn't needed in the story why write him in only to have him be insignificant so far.I think we like characters in the story have greatly overlooked Rickon.But while GRRM has done something overt with Bran Rickon's path followed the same path but has been more subtle.Looking at Rickon wild,shaggy,won't let no one cut his hair.He is the one character that most embodies the original depiction of Garth Greenhand ,The Wild Man of the Woods and thus that archatype and he too while not physically planted beneath a hill has been hidden away beyond by a goddess type no less in Osha.

Certainly not into pubic hair mussing.

GRRM has any number of options. For instance, if the Popsicles are melted for good and all, and the Watch is no longer a formal body, Rickon could become a dominant lord of what had been a beyond-the-Wall territory (though needing a regent in the short run).

Or, if the Popsicles remain a potential threat and the Watch/Wall are preserved, Rickon could be tagged for a future role similar to Benjen's.

It's hard for me to imagine GRRM writing much about him, though, given the endless number of more major and more probable items on his To Do list. We're down to the last two books.

I don't think he needs to do a big right up for him,if we've followed the clues so far and know "what type of person does and goes where" Rickon can easily be placed where he needed to be.

Recovering from the flu here, so apologies if my thoughts are all over the place.

Love the astute observation of the opening of Bran's third eye not necessarily being a good thing. This may be glaringly obvious to everyone, but we have the definite connection of Bran's third eye (henceforth known as B3E) to that of the Hindu god Shiva.

I have thought about the parallels with ASOIAF here and there but never really touched on it in threads....but it's really cool when you take a look.

Shiva is one of three primary gods of Hinduism, and often considered the Supreme God.

Shiva is limitless and formless, but can take on other forms to suit needs. (Those who have seen him in form say he is fair, like a mountain made of ice)

His benevolent form is that of an omniscent yogi who lives atop a mountain.

His fearsome form is that of a demon slayer.

Shiva is portrayed as having a serpent around his neck, a crescent moon adorning his head, a holy river flowing from his hair, carrying both a weapon (trident) and an instrument (drum).

However, his most iconic feature is his third eye, which is the basis for his common name "The Destroyer" or "The Transformer". Shiva's third eye remain closed, but if he is angered he will open the eye and reduce all material existence to ashes. There is also a linguistic connection to the third eye and word "mother" and depending on which translation you use can mean "three mothers" as well as "three eyes".

Finally, there is another connection between Shiva and the god Rudra, "the god of the roaring storm" - in Vedic scripture these are actually the same entity manifesting in different ways. Interesting parallel to Euron as the "first storm and the last" as well as Euron keeping his "black eye filled with malice" shielded.

Anyway, I see many similarities between the Hindu mythology and what GRRM is showing us with Bloodraven, Euron, and now Bran - I think what we'll see is a paradoxical deity that can be both good and bad, be innately connected with the other great deities, encompass many forms, and ultimately be the dude that rains destruction of epic scale down upon the world.

Disclaimer: this is all med-fueled, I may have no idea what I'm even saying right now.

Yep they are called " Greenseers"

Thank you, Wolfmaid :) at the rate you guys go, I may be caught up & ready to participate in 6-9 months!

I have some ideas I want to read your take on, but don't want to be redundant if was already covered. I laughed at the hair color/eyebrow discussion; I was thinking about how annoying that was literally a few days ago. I'm rewatching the show before the new season comes up.

ETA: I hope you won't get too annoyed with me, but do you know of any links arguing whether Jojen is still alive or not? I tried google searching as well as on the forum, but I didn't find anyone using textual evidence either way- just "you need to read between the lines" or "it's in there if you pick it apart". (WHERE? What lines?!)

If you don't know, don't trouble yourself, I'll skim through things on time off, plus I have plenty of CH material to keep me busy now :)

You are most welcomed.And feel free to ask any questions you have.

ETA: JNR has given the best answer for that,we haven't discussed it in Hersey per se,but you are right in their really is no lines to read between when it comes to Jojen.Meera says he wants to go home and we don't know what his greendreams 'actually" showed him.

[wolfmaid7]

Funny you should say that...

Oh Yes.

Rickon is with Osha & she'll help his development . He needs to be grounded first & who better than Osha Sometimes the very young can easily have their senses expanded-their 3 rd eye open & it is frightening to them Rickon knew about Ned 1st

Damn I can t type on this Nook so bear with me.

Osha knows what the Starks have forgotten or a least quite a bit of it

As people become "civilized" they loose a natural ability to truly know and feel at one with the natural world & supernatural as well.

Wolfmaid, I think Osha was sent for Rickon

I have know doubt Osha has become "The" sub for Rickon's path.I wrote a piece about characters and what they are fated to do (magic is on their side and it will find a way).This applies to Rickon who has been cast aside because he "seems like nothing".But him and Jon are the closets embodiement of their familiars and the ones who i think will have less chance of being "peoples pawn".Rickon will be a bad ass when he comes back young as he is.He as you say will learn from the natural which will make this very interesting.

[JNR]

I hope you won't get too annoyed with me, but do you know of any links arguing whether Jojen is still alive or not? I tried google searching as well as on the forum, but I didn't find anyone using textual evidence either way- just "you need to read between the lines" or "it's in there if you pick it apart". (WHERE? What lines?!)

In the books? It's always been rather doubtful speculation that he's dead. He seems to be inclined to leave the cave and return home because he thinks his doom is inescapable.

Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave's mouth when the day was bright. He would stand there for hours, looking out over the forest, wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same.

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

This is the last we hear of him.

In the show, he was stabbed by wights, had his throat cut by Meera, and was exploded by Leaf's fireball grenade. So if he still isn't dead, I need to take over as show-runner.

[Urrax2]

True Rickin wasn't a part of the synopsis but i think GRRM has designed a pivitol role for him. If he wasn't needed in the story why write him in only to have him be insignificant so far. ...

:agree: It's a case of Chekov's gun.

[Black Crow]

I have some ideas I want to read your take on, but don't want to be redundant if was already covered. I laughed at the hair color/eyebrow discussion; I was thinking about how annoying that was literally a few days ago. I'm rewatching the show before the new season comes up.

As I've said before we're very good at talking in circles and don't mind going over old stuff especially with fresh eyes. While Wolfmaid's catalogue is a very important resource its not a substitute for fresh discussion and debate. Familiarise yourself with what's been said before but never shrug your shoulders and pass on. Bring your ideas to the thread.

[Black Crow]

:agree: It's a case of Chekov's gun.

As is a certain statement by Maester Yandel which has produced a quite astonishing demonstration of denial in another thread.

[Black Crow]

In the show, he was stabbed by wights, had his throat cut by Meera, and was exploded by Leaf's fireball grenade. So if he still isn't dead, I need to take over as show-runner.

I would say though that since that scene was filmed after the celebrated conference in Santa Fe to pry the secrets of the character arcs from GRRM precisely in order to avoid killing characters off too early, the fact that poor Jojen had the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch chucked at him doesn't suggest he has much of a future in the book.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: It's a case of Chekov's gun.

I know and yet ,the world awaits with arses clenched for Howland Reed who hasn't been seen for 5 books.But we accept that though he hasn't been seen he has something important to "reveal" come crunch time.If GRRM can do that,he can make a role for Rickon and subtly to me anyway,Rickon will pull a Lancelot/Percival on Merlin.

"Merlin" I thought Lancelot was the one you sent me for?" You should have seen him good with a sword,charming etc.You told me he would be by the river

"Lady of the Lake".Yeah the skinny kid who was watching the dude with the sword fighting by the river

Merlin" Oh my bad,couldn't you be more specific? That kid didn't seem to have anything special about him he was just stearing.It creeped me out.

LOTL" Hey we are the Fae we are suppose to be non specific can't do everything for you people.That should teach you to judge a book by its cover

Yeah Rickon's getting the David and Percival treatment.People looking at him in amusement. Rickon is nobody because he's unruly,wild,too small,missin since book 2 didn't get an honorary mention in the 93 synopsis.Howland wasn't in it either.

As is a certain statement by Maester Yandel which has produced a quite astonishing demonstration of denial in another thread.

Yandel must be "If GRRM knew the s**t storm this would cause.He wuld have just left me out.I'v e never had my character so gravely impuned.I mean just a week ago i was shizzle and now i'm not just because i told it like it is and validated something that was pretty much there from the get go.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah, check out Maisie on the new magazine cover in GRRM's Not a Blog. She's turning into a confident-looking young woman indeed.

It seems to me that, in certain ways, the show provides an opportunity for Martin to tell a story closer to his original outline than he'll be able to tell in the books. The five year gap, for instance, is hardly necessary in the show. With a year between each season, it's built right in - so maybe a Jon/Arya romance would work for HBO.

In the books - Jon/Arya has clearly been scrapped.

[Mother of Dragons]

@Wolfmaiden & Black Crow:

Thanks again- I'll get overwhelmed because while in my social circle and family I'm considered "someone who reads a lot", I'm blown away by all the details people remember and pick up. I've been a fan of the books for awhile now, but I can't quote the book like some people quote the bible (like you guys) so it's nice you have this Heresy thread set up with an index, kind of like a wiki page for all the mysteries. I read the stuff on this site more than contribute, which is why I have like 300 posts in 6 years. This forum is more helpful than google when it comes to asoiaf quick look ups. There's even a personal google service if you're too lazy to look something up in the small question thread!

Black Crow: Did you change your avatar at any point? I thought it was different last time I came to pay the Heretics a visit, but maybe it was another contributor.

[JNR]

I would say though that since that scene was filmed after the celebrated conference in Santa Fe to pry the secrets of the character arcs from GRRM precisely in order to avoid killing characters off too early, the fact that poor Jojen had the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch chucked at him doesn't suggest he has much of a future in the book.

If we presume the show and books must be telling basically the same story with respect to all the major characters.

I'm just increasingly doubtful of that premise. The upcoming season in particular looks like it will deviate even more than the past one, to the point where GRRM assures us

People are going to die who don’t die in the books, so even the book readers will be unhappy.

For years now in interviews, he's been predicting that the "butterfly effect" is going to spin the books and show in different directions. I take him at his word.

[Black Crow]

Black Crow: Did you change your avatar at any point? I thought it was different last time I came to pay the Heretics a visit, but maybe it was another contributor.

Yeah, can't remember exactly when but it was about two years ago. The current one is the sigil of John Uskglass, the Raven King.

Its a black crow volante [flying] which oddly enough is also the sigil of House Morrigen except that they have a storm green sky rather than a snow white one.

[Black Crow]

It seems to me that, in certain ways, the show provides an opportunity for Martin to tell a story closer to his original outline than he'll be able to tell in the books. The five year gap, for instance, is hardly necessary in the show. With a year between each season, it's built right in - so maybe a Jon/Arya romance would work for HBO.

In the books - Jon/Arya has clearly been scrapped.

I agree as to the first para, but as I responded above on the second point I think there's still scope for it. Remember that in the synopsis the attraction doesn't actually get underway until Arya arrives at the Wall. She has yet to do so obviously, but GRRM has promised that all our characters will be back and shivering in Westeros in Winds of Winter, and Arya we know is aware both that Jon is still on the Wall and that ships sail from Braavos to the Wall. Then factor in the enforced gap and its not Arya Underfoot who arrives on the Wall but a growed-up Arya, and not a great lady but someone more akin to Ygritte on Speed.

[JNR]

As is a certain statement by Maester Yandel which has produced a quite astonishing demonstration of denial in another thread.

It has, but there's also been a lot of support for the statement. See the recent posts by SFDanny in particular.