Is Davos just badly written?

[Green Hereseer]

Sorry for the sensationalist title. The question I really want to ask is...

Why does Davos actually support Stannis?

He doesn't seem like Stannis very much as a man (because Stannis is a selfish d*ck who justifies his desires as his "rights"). He thinks Stannis is doing horrible things to win the throne (burning people, for one). He believes Stannis is in thrall to a woman who represents a demonic false god. And he thinks Stannis' cause is prettymuch hopeless.

His 1st-person text says he's faithful to Stannis because Stannis raised him up from nothing to become a knight, a Lord, and eventually a Hand. But that's putting the buggy wayyyy before the horse.

Why would Davos initially break the siege to help Stannis? Once he did that, and Stannis cuts off the tips of his fingers, why would he then decide "oh... this is a solid guy who I should devote myself to"? This was years before Robert's death and Stannis' technical rise to the Iron Throne. So what, Stannis made him a knight. Big whoop... any knight can make a knight.

I'm not asking because I think this is an important plot point to the series. It just bugs me when I re-read, and feels like one of only a handful of big character screw-ups from GRRM. I'm doing my best to make sense of it from the text, not from trying to psychoanalyse fictional characters. It just doesn't seem like the text actually makes sense.

Is Davos just a poorly-written stand-in for the everyman, or is GRRM trying to say something here?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As I see it, Davos helped Stannis because he saw an opportunity there. Like "mmm... people here is probably starving and might pay money for my onions". Considering he was right, Stannis agreed on accept his help (because this not only helped himself but the people who lived with him, including, IICR, Renly, who was a child.). Some other lord could have paid Davos and said goodbye. Stannis actually rewarded him accordingly and considers him an honest man.

[Green Hereseer]

I hear you. I can see why Stannis would keep Davos around. Just can't see why Davos would find Stannis honorable.

[The Drunkard]

In the first Davos chapter he thinks of all that Stannis had given him (a knighthood, his trust, a keep, ships and knighthoods for his sons, servants for his wife, Devan taken as Stannis' squire) and appreciates the justice behind what Stannis did to his fingers. For that "he has earned [his] loyalty." Later, putting more trust in him than his lords, appreciating his honesty, raising him up to Hand, understanding and agreeing with Davos' argument to save the kingdom, etc. Stannis has a lot of qualities that someone can appreciate, especially someone lowborn.

In that sense Davos isn't an anomaly; a lot of people lower down the social ladder demonstrate their loyalty. Cressen killed himself trying to 'save' Stannis, Justin Massey would rather fight a battle he thinks doomed than leave Stannis' side, Asha notes that Stannis' "common men" somewhat idolize him, and in the past those soldiers had done some noteworthy feats, like charging across a bridge of ships burning with wildfire, or charging into the wildlings and giants using his name as a warcry.

Incidentally Stannis was partly inspired by Tiberius from I, Claudius, who in his military career also inspired a lot of loyalty from those under him even though he was quite the asshole. They trusted in his skill, his sense of fairness, his willingness to reward them, his willingness to take part in the same hardships as them, and ultimately preferred that style of leadership to someone friendly but whose confidence they lacked.

[Knight of the Teabags]

When Manderly claims to have executed Davos Cersai demands the hand with the shortened fingers as proof.

This tells you something which isn't initially obvious about Davos' origin story is that it is a story that is well known by Westeros as a whole. Davos was never just another lowborn knight in Stannis' service he's the guy that Stannis cut off the tips of his fingers then knighted. Considering that Stannis was only about twenty when he met Davos and the famous punishment/reward happened it is quite likely the event that people like Ned Stark would cite as the key example of Stannis' reputation of being just but harsh.

Ser Davos Seaworth (and its worth remembering he was just plain Davos before) didn't just rise in status and wealth when he accepted Stannis' offer, he became somebody precisely because of his fingers on his right hand being one digit shorter. When people see Davos and his maimed right hand, they remember the story and that Stannis will both reward and punish those who deserve it. Ser Davos Seaworth in short is a walking personification of everything his king stands for and Davos certainly takes a great deal of personnel pride from this. It is quite interesting how Davos can be often be rather judgmental about men much higher born than himself whose loyalty to Stannis is far more questionable. His conversation with Alester Florent in the dungeons of Dragonstone is a good case in point.

It is also worth considering what sort of person Davos might have turned into had he just received the reward without the crimes of his previous life being into account. There are a number of other characters who rise from lowly backgrounds by patronage of the lords in the series for example Bronn, Shae, Janos Slynt, the Kettleblacks. However none of these characters are considered as virtuous as the Onion Knight quite the opposite. Only Ser Duncan the Tall from the short stories comes off the top of my head as another lowborn man who rises into the nobility and like Davos becomes someone we consider an exemplar of moral courage. Spoiler\ Dunk like Davos is incidentally forced to take responsibility for his actions by realizing he quite literally owes his life to the goodwill of men who were prepared to sacrifice their lives to defend his honour and that he must live every day trying to live in their memory./spoiler. For Davos losing his finger tips is a daily reminder of what sort of a man he used to be, which may well be the reason he turned into a much better one.

[JNR]

As I see it, Davos helped Stannis because he saw an opportunity there. Like "mmm... people here is probably starving and might pay money for my onions."

:agree:

Smugglers are fundamentally opportunistic people. Whether he expected the onions would be bought for cash, or he simply hoped to acquire the grateful thanks of a powerful lord, Davos served himself as much as he served Stannis.

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

Yep, I concur with the Drunkard. Davos plainly respects Stannis and philosophically sees his shortened fingers as payment for his ticket from the dodgy path enabled by Aerys' misrule to a world where his wife and sons can live in perpetuity as landed lords. When Stannis is usurped by Renly, he supports his lord in the monstrosity of the Shadowbaby, and then leads the battle of the Blackwater.

After his miraculous survival, his beliefs are thrown into stark relief, as Stannis is led further into heresy. When his literacy training becomes partially advanced, he convinces Stannis to invade Beyond the Wall. Meanwhile, he himself is sent to treat with lords of dubious intent via smugglers means.

In the TV show, during the off-book arc where Stannis and Davos go abroad to the Iron Bank, there is a scene that probably best shows why Davos believes in Stannis. Whether this supports the contention the Davos is badly written and thus needed exposition I don't have an opinion. I just know that it reflects how I thought their relationship tracked all along. Davos, in his own common-man way, demonstrates loyalty to Stannis because he believes the man to be his king.

Accusing GRRM of bad writing is not heresy, but a matter of interpretation. For mine, I think Davos is one of the heroes of the entire story and a triumph in depicting a flawed hero who has given us important glimpses of Stannis to compare with his offstage reputation, plus cameos for other POVs.

[Green Hereseer]

Accusing GRRM of bad writing is not heresy, but a matter of interpretation. For mine, I think Davos is one of the heroes of the entire story and a triumph in depicting a flawed hero who has given us important glimpses of Stannis to compare with his offstage reputation, plus cameos for other POVs.

I didn't mean to say that Davos' chapters are literally written poorly-- I totally think they are useful/valid/a nice addition to the books in terms of getting interesting first-person accounts of Team Stannis-- but that I didn't really buy the character's motivations.

That said, I buy Knight of The Teabags' interpretation. Well said.

It is also worth considering what sort of person Davos might have turned into had he just received the reward without the crimes of his previous life being into account.

Perhaps by his "luck" he means the luck that his life was turned toward morality, even if it's a brutal kind.

[The Last Left Fighting]

I think in the beginning, like others have said, he went to help Stannis during the siege as it was a good opportunity, nothing more than that. After he received his rewards/judgment, I belive Davos was impressed in a way by how strict Stannis' sense of justice was, as it's extreme, making it unlike how a lot of lords would have reacted in the situation. Stannis then proceeded to lift Davos' family up from a smuggler's family to one with some advancement opportunities and hope of a stable, prosperous life. For someone like Davos who is portrayed as an average guy, having his family taken care of is certain to endear Stannis to him. So at the beginning he is almostly blindly loyal.

Over the course of the books, with Stannis' bid to reclaim the throne, Melisandre and Rhollor taking over everything... Davos' opinion of Stannis likely suffered and I'm sure he probably had a lot of doubts about him. But he stuck with him because it was what he knew, and there had been some part of Stannis he liked before, and maybe that part of him wasn't dead yet. Davos works hard to convince Stannis to go about things a different way (not bringing Melisandre to the battle of the Blackwater, taking out a loan with the Iron Bank, urging him to go North to help the Night's Watch, etc). And though those never happen easily, in the end Stannis lets him persuade him. Which feeds Davos' hope that Stannis has not fundamentally changed and is still the right king for all, and the right king for Davos.

In some ways I can say that their relationship mirrors the "friendship" between Ned and Robert in that Ned was a little stubborn to let go of his bond with Robert even when Robert made choices that Ned found atrocious. Davos sees Stannis making terrible choices but stands with him despite that, too. However it would seem that Davos ultimately has more sway over Stannis to where he can influence his decisions toward the better, where Robert was going to do what he wanted even if Ned said it was wrong. But both Ned and Davos are clinging to a friendship that is very dubious in terms of whether it's good to keep it going or not. Which probably means it's just in their personality/character to act that way rather than to discard someone when you've outgrown that bond (or think they've become a monster).

So really it comes down to, for me, that Davos is a simple guy. He believed in Stannis once, and despite what's gone on, he still believes that man that he originally decided to serve lives on, and if he can just coax him, he can get him to be that king again. He's fighting a tug-of-war with Melisandre over Stannis throughout the books with that precise motivation. Either he's going to win it, and Stannis will back off some of the riskier choices, or Melisandre wins and Stannis goes down the Rhollor path full force, or Option C: Davos is the one who ends up changing, and he comes to accept the Stannis that Melisandre has built.