Rhaegar, a Pentoshi Prince

[Modesty Lannister]

In TWOIAF we learn that Pentos has been founded as Valyrian merchant colony and in time spread its territory to what was the original land of the Andals. So, the city of today is inhabited by descendants of both Valyrians and Andals. Pentos is also the closest to King's Landing of all Essos cities.

Pentos of Valyrian time used to be ruled by a prince, chosen from 40 noble families (which is a direct homage to 40 Valyrian dragonlord families). Once chosen, a prince rules for life:

Each new year, the prince use deflower two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields. The ancient ritual - perhaps arising from mysterious origins of pre-Valyrian Pentos - is meant to insure a continuous prosperity of Pentos on land and at sea. Yet, if there is a famine or a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler, but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the Gods may be up eased. And then a new prince is chosen who might bring more fortune to the city.

Rhaegar deflowered two maidens:

Elia was the maiden of the sea. She was born and bred in the port of Sunspear and is a descendent of the Andals (Martells) and Rhoynish (Nymeria).

Lyanna was the maiden of the field, described as half-horse. Rhaegar crowned her with blue roses and named her the queen of love and beauty. She is a descendent of the First Men, because we do not see Starks ever marrying into a family of Andal blood.

So, deflowering of these two maids can be seen as a parallel ritual that would ensure prosperity of Westeros (First Men, Andals and the Rhoynish) on both land and sea.

But, since there was a war, the prince, who was supposed to rule for life, was sacrificed. Rhaegar was nowhere to be seen before the Trident where he lost to Robert.

We know Rhaegar was obsessed with a prophecy. We also know he was an expert on Westerosi lore. TWOIAF tells us that the custom of choosing a Pentoshi prince predates Valyrian arrival. So, it is highly probable it was Andal. And the roots of the custom are most likely magical since most customs start as magical rituals and end up being just pale ceremonial copies of its origins.

So, my questions are - Are these parallels just serendipity? Or did Rhaegar try to enact some ancient magical ritual somehow connected with the prophecy? That would mean he went to his death on the Trident willingly to ensure prosperity of his kingdoms. Or do you have any other ideas?

All ideas are welcome. Trolls are not.

[Starkfaithful85]

Think it is just coincidence...impressive find though never would have caught that

[Phillip Frye]

Repost this over in Heresy, Modesty. We've just been talking about Lyanna as the May Queen, who gets sacrificed at the end of the summer.

[Balerion the kitten]

Rhaegar's character doesn't sit right with me. I like him but I'm not too sure if I do. It's nice to think that he was this unsung hero who would gladly take on the title of an asshole and die so he could save westeros. But even then does that somehow make what he did right? Good deeds don't wash away bad ones.

I think Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, so much that he was willing to forge them. Which is why I agree and like this post. Personally I think there was an extremely high chance that he kidnapped lyanna, so he could make the song of ice and fire. Maybe he thought queen of love and beauty would immediately win her over and when it didn't he abducted her. But that's going into a whole other thing.

He reminds me a bit of melissandre, who also forges prophecies rather than letting them play out. I'm surprised you made this connection, seems very likely

[Rattenhoofd]

It's a good catch, but I think it's way too far-fetched.

Wasn't Rhaegar getting it on with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy before the battle at the Trident?

[Modesty Lannister]

It's a good catch, but I think it's way too far-fetched.

Wasn't Rhaegar getting it on with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy before the battle at the Trident?

Yes, and that is the whole point of the OP. Prince of Pentos deflowers two maidens and (then) if need be (war, famine, illness) is sacrificed himself. So, the order of events is quite spot on. The same custom is applied by princesses of the isle of Leng. And for the same reason - prosperity of the realm.

[Modesty Lannister]

Rhaegar's character doesn't sit right with me. I like him but I'm not too sure if I do. It's nice to think that he was this unsung hero who would gladly take on the title of an asshole and die so he could save westeros. But even then does that somehow make what he did right? Good deeds don't wash away bad ones.

I think Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, so much that he was willing to forge them. Which is why I agree and like this post. Personally I think there was an extremely high chance that he kidnapped lyanna, so he could make the song of ice and fire. Maybe he thought queen of love and beauty would immediately win her over and when it didn't he abducted her. But that's going into a whole other thing.

He reminds me a bit of melissandre, who also forges prophecies rather than letting them play out. I'm surprised you made this connection, seems very likely

I really do not get where people get this "Rheagar was obsessed with prophecies". I don't say he didn't try to fulfil a prophecy, but Aegon V seemed much more obsessed with prophecies than Rhaegar. Also, Targaryens owe their survival to a prophesy, so it is not at all surprising they value them. And Rhaegar was born in Summerhall when almost entire family died due to Aegon's attempt to hatch a dragon. That is a heavy burden to bear all his life. No wonder he did all the research possible. I would. One has to know why one survived. There is a term "survivor's guilt". I know people who suffer from it when all their family is whipped out in a car accident for example and they miraculously survive. So, I do not see anything out of the ordinary in Rhaegar's behaviour if we keep his mind his family history and tragic circumstances of his birth. How come this "obsessed" Rhaegar had time to learn all Westerosi lore, learn how to become good fighter, have many friends, inspire loyalty, marry, father two children if he was just obsessed with prophecies.

[Alia of the knife]

I really do not get where people get this "Rheagar was obsessed with prophecies". I don't say he didn't try to fulfil a prophecy, but Aegon V seemed much more obsessed with prophecies than Rhaegar. Also, Targaryens owe their survival to a prophesy, so it is not at all surprising they value them. And Rhaegar was born in Summerhall when almost entire family died due to Aegon's attempt to hatch a dragon. That is a heavy burden to bear all his life. No wonder he did all the research possible. I would. One has to know why one survived. There is a term "survivor's guilt". I know people who suffer from it when all their family is whipped out in a car accident for example and they miraculously survive. So, I do not see anything out of the ordinary in Rhaegar's behaviour if we keep his mind his family history and tragic circumstances of his birth. How come this "obsessed" Rhaegar had time to learn all Westerosi lore, learn how to become good fighter, have many friends, inspire loyalty, marry, father two children if he was just obsessed with prophecies.

In terms of prophesy, I agree with this as well. While I think the metaphysical is a element of the Targaryens, that he might be "obsessed" sounds a bit more like the extrapolation from the fandom, because we see, or hear virtually nothing from those at Court that indicates they were concerned about their Prince having "his head in the clouds," and Kevan Lannister remembers him as wanting "sons." Selmy is the only one who indicates that he read something that made him change his otherwise bookish behaviors.

I'm not sure that the "there must be one more," has anything to do with saving anything other than the Targaryen dynasty, but I suppose my own view as to the "whys" take me in a bit of a different direction.

However, a GREAT catch. :bowdown:

Rhaegar's character doesn't sit right with me. I like him but I'm not too sure if I do. It's nice to think that he was this unsung hero who would gladly take on the title of an asshole and die so he could save westeros. But even then does that somehow make what he did right? Good deeds don't wash away bad ones.

I think Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, so much that he was willing to forge them. Which is why I agree and like this post. Personally I think there was an extremely high chance that he kidnapped lyanna, so he could make the song of ice and fire. Maybe he thought queen of love and beauty would immediately win her over and when it didn't he abducted her. But that's going into a whole other thing.

He reminds me a bit of melissandre, who also forges prophecies rather than letting them play out. I'm surprised you made this connection, seems very likely

I think you and I are thinking along the same lines.

Traditionally, prophesy are the things that play out whilst living, they are not to be forced, forged, tweaked, or manipulated, and I think this is the cautionary point of GRRM's writing regarding obsession and fanatacism.

At least Mel is on some level a "holy" woman, whereas Rhaegar is not, and I don't know, it seems to smack a bit of hubris that he assumes he is the one to bring things about, unless of course we get some information later that tells us that it was someone else that planted that notion in his mind.

He thinks that Aegon is tPtwP, then something, (someone) changes his mind, I tend to think his meeting Lyanna may have been the correlation that connected his "disconnection" from Aegon as tPtwP, but maybe thats a bit cynical.

That Jon, a love child and not a "duty" child, would be tPtWP, (his life saved on the promise of his uncle), would be more likely the thing that leads me to think that is the "tricksy" nature of prophesy.

[Balerion the kitten]

I really do not get where people get this "Rheagar was obsessed with prophecies". I don't say he didn't try to fulfil a prophecy, but Aegon V seemed much more obsessed with prophecies than Rhaegar. Also, Targaryens owe their survival to a prophesy, so it is not at all surprising they value them. And Rhaegar was born in Summerhall when almost entire family died due to Aegon's attempt to hatch a dragon. That is a heavy burden to bear all his life. No wonder he did all the research possible. I would. One has to know why one survived. There is a term "survivor's guilt". I know people who suffer from it when all their family is whipped out in a car accident for example and they miraculously survive. So, I do not see anything out of the ordinary in Rhaegar's behaviour if we keep his mind his family history and tragic circumstances of his birth. How come this "obsessed" Rhaegar had time to learn all Westerosi lore, learn how to become good fighter, have many friends, inspire loyalty, marry, father two children if he was just obsessed with prophecies.

Obsessed maybe wasn't the right word, fascinated? And he actually became a fighter because when he was younger he read about TPtwP, leading him to learn to fight on the assumption that he was the Prince.

Technically your right that he fathered two children, but getting a women pregnant isn't that time consuming unless there's problems. If what you meant by fathering was raising the children, then he only brought up one as he basically left when aegon was born.

And as I said, I like rheagar but I'm not too sure if I do. What I meant was I like everything i had heard about him up until the whole Lyanna stuff. Another good reason for his depressing attitude is that when he went to summerhall he would listen to the ghost of high hearts prophecies and in exchange play songs from his harp.

[Oberyion Martennister]

I feel like if we could get into Rhaegar's head, it would be a lot like a Quentyn POV....very dreadful and full of doubt. Everyone describes him as melancholy. I can imagine his inner monologue being packed with those, 'eat at your soul, "I hope I'm doing the right thing," types of moments

"Rubies flew from Rhaegar's breastplate, scattering into the waters of the Trident. No, he thought. All around him he saw men screaming and dying. He heard none of it. The Prince of Dragonstone had ended his life to a loud crunch, and the soft whisper of a name. "Lyanna."

I can't do italics sorry

[Modesty Lannister]

I do not think all the testimonies we read in the books concerning Rhaegar corroborate that he was melancholic all the time. That being said, I'd like us to return to the OP is it's of any interest to you.

[theblitz6794]

Hmm I think this is a good find. Although Rhaegar was convinced he was coming back from the Trident. He did tell Jaime that after he comes back, things will be different.

Still, it doesn't negate the prophecy. The prophecy said he would die. And he did. He perhaps missed that fact or didn't see it coming, which would make sense. Anyhow, a recurring theme is that death pays for life. So Rhaegar fulfilling the prophecies at the cost of all the people dying in the subsequent wars seems reasonable. I guess if the prophecies keep playing out, in the end things aren't so bad.

[Beorn Snow]

Well the sacrifice of Elia, Rhaegar and Lyanna seem to have bought 15 years of prosperity and one long summer.

Let´s see what killing of Aegon VI, Arianne and Sansa can buy us.

[Modesty Lannister]

Well the sacrifice of Elia, Rhaegar and Lyanna seem to have bought 15 years of prosperity and one long summer.

Let´s see what killing of Aegon VI, Arianne and Sansa can buy us.

A hope for spring? :laugh:

[Beorn Snow]

A hope for spring? :laugh:

:cool4: one can dream ...

[Alia of the knife]

Sooooo, Sophie Turner is going to be Jean Grey in X-Men.

Now, if we can get Rory McCann for Nagen on WD.

[Modesty Lannister]

Sooooo, Sophie Turner is going to be Jean Grey in X-Men.

Now, if we can get Rory McCann for Nagen on WD.

I am not following that particular franchise. So, for further discussion on the subject, I can only advise you to open a thread. I'm sure SanSan shippers will enjoy the discussion immensely. This thread, however, has nothing to do with this topic. :cheers:

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Very good catch by the OP, though I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar fulfilled this process intentionally. But I think it still might have been an unintentional magical act.

We're not sure where the Pentoshi (or Lengii) custom originated; perhaps it dates back to the ancient, pre-Long-Night days, and has something to do with appeasing both an earth deity and a sea deity? Children of the Forest and Deep Ones? That's probably a stretch, though.

Either way, it's interesting to ponder what Raegar might have kicked off by accidentally being a sacrificial prince. Was the ensuing long summer in fact his doing? Is Aegon or Jon (or Dany, in the Lengii style) going to have to repeat this process to bring peace back to the realm? Does this Pentoshi/Lengii ritual actually intersect somehow with the Prince that was Promised prophecy? Very interesting.

[Modesty Lannister]

Very good catch by the OP, though I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar fulfilled this process intentionally. But I think it still might have been an unintentional magical act.

We're not sure where the Pentoshi (or Lengii) custom originated; perhaps it dates back to the ancient, pre-Long-Night days, and has something to do with appeasing both an earth deity and a sea deity? Children of the Forest and Deep Ones? That's probably a stretch, though.

Either way, it's interesting to ponder what Raegar might have kicked off by accidentally being a sacrificial prince. Was the ensuing long summer in fact his doing? Is Aegon or Jon (or Dany, in the Lengii style) going to have to repeat this process to bring peace back to the realm? Does this Pentoshi/Lengii ritual actually intersect somehow with the Prince that was Promised prophecy? Very interesting.

Thank you. I actually think it was an intentional process. Rhaegar was one of the best read and learned men of his time. If he didn't know about Pentoshi/Lengi customs, he had a great-uncle who studied at the Citadel, who had most certainly read these histories and with whom (as we know from ADWD) Rhaegar corresponded. And that great-uncle has rejected the IT himself. I believe there is a whole faction of Targaryens trying to reintroduce the magical balance by

1) abandoning old Valyrian customs and excessive use of dark magic that contributed to global magical disbalance

2) making peace with Valyrian "enemies/adversaries" (Aemon learning at the Citadel, Bloodraven becoming a greenseer, Aegon V living with and later standing for the smallfolk, Rhaegar sacrificing himself like a Pentoshi prince, Jon bringing the wildlings into the fold, Daenerys liberating slaves). Whether they did it consciously or whether they were guided in their actions, the result of these actions is re-establishment of better global magical balance.

I'm hereby reposting a part of my post from "Why Didn't Targaryens Use Fused Stone Technology?" thread. It is post 25 if you wish to read it in its entirety.

3. I believe that Targaryens, who wanted to get rid of all things magical, never took anyone with them [from Valyria to Dragonstone] who was specialised in any form of magic.

4. Before conquering Westeros, Aegon visited Oldtown - the place where no magic is welcome, at least it is not welcome in the Citadel (Hightowers are a different matter). That would be consistent with the family tendency to reject magic or at least excessive magic that existed on Valyria. Furthermore, I'd like to think that the visit to the Oldtown had been a pivotal event for Aegon's preparation of invasion of Westeros. Oldtown opened its gates to him at the end of his conquest. The faith of seven embraced him regardless of his Valyrian decent. That suggests a deal was struck before the invasion. I believe a part of that deal was to get rid of the Ironborn who were slicing through Westeros like a knife and building Harrenhal, a place where dark magic was also excessively performed (mixing mortar with human blood, cutting down weirwood groves and incorporating them into the structure, human sacrifice to the construction etc.).

5. Finally, and this is the most speculative bit, I believe that Valyrians were a part of the ancient pact with CotF. If the oath Jojen and Meera are swearing to Bran are the words of that ancient pact, they include a bit "I swear by ice and fire". The last bit would suggest presence of Valyrians in the pact. Aegon's actions confirm this. Construction of Harrenhal was sacrilege of the Old Gods religion and earth/water magic practiced by CotF and most probably the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces. Harrenhal being built next to the Isle of Faces was a dark magic presence that may have corrupted the Isle of Faces itself. I believe that protection of this Isle is central and essential for the fight for a new natural balance. Destroying it, may have been fatal for the natural balance. Arya tells us that Harrenhal was not build for humans. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was built for whoever was going to come from the sea and invade humanity. Maybe the fishlike gods of the Thousand Islands are a race living underwater. But, I do not want to stray too far. Aegon's actions were all going against dark magic and its excessive use. I feel he made a pact with the Citadel that involved no practice of Valyrian magic, worship of Valyrian gods or exercising Valryian customs on Westeros.

So, to sum it up, I believe Targaryens did not just flee Valyria. They fled from Valyrian magic as well. The Citadel and Westeros in general made a good use of their dragons to get rid of the Ironborn and their dark magic, but when that threat was perceived to be gone, dragons became redundant for the Citadel and the Dance began.

I plan to create a larger thread addressing all these actions. It is interesting to note that Lengi consulted with possible relatives of CotF and then created the custom of marrying their adversaries to bring peace. Rhaegar spent and inordinate amount of time with the Ghost of Highheart who may be a CotF, but may also be a member of the Order of Green Men from the Isle of Faces. And then he went off and "kidnapped" a maiden of the field, which is quote out of his character of studious man. Finally, he went to the Trident and instead of wielding Valyrian steel sword against Robert, it seems that he went to commit a willing sacrifice despite of what he told Jaime.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

That's quite interesting. I'm a fan of #5, as I am very much in the "squishers are real and important" camp.

Re: Targs not bringing Valyrian magic with them: Perhaps when Daenys had her prophetic dream it was revealed not just what would happen but why, and that could be what turned them off of magic. Could even have been some sort of "Noah" situation, where Daenys received a message that the Valyrians were doomed because of their "sin" i.e. unbalanced magic (and possibly betraying their pact at the God's Eye as per your theory) and the Targaryens alone would be spared, if they vacated to Dragonstone sans magical apparatus.

You have semi-convinced me that Rhaegar may have done the Pentoshi Prince thing on purpose, especially if that custom is somehow related to the 3-headed dragon prophecy (which we know strangely little about in terms of its significance considering how much it's mentioned--why does the dragon have 3 heads? What does that signify? What's it supposed to accomplish?--perhaps balance, perhaps it is actually the exact same concept as the Pentoshi/Lengii customs).