Heresy 159

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@wolfmaiden: this was kind answered already, but I'm pretty sure the 13th LC's name was erased from records so it would be forgotten.

And the interesting question, of course... is What Records? Given Sam's statement that:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. (4.05, SAMWELL)

[Frey family reunion]

The revulsion may be present but the synopsis suggests something much deeper.

As to old houses, its interesting that the Daynes have retained their position for so long without rising or falling, almost as if they are biding their time for something.

We just don't have any evidence of the two Houses having an ancient enmity, however. I would think that the World Book would have mentioned something if it existed. Perhaps Martin replaced it with the Bracken-Blackwood feud once his story grew in the telling.

As for the old houses, House Dayne and House Hightower was the reason that I edited my initial post. Which is why I find it interesting that two of the three Kingsguards were from those Houses. I still think that Rhaegar and his bachelor friends had something going on that was greater than Rhaegar's interest in House Targaryen.

[Frey family reunion]

And the interesting question, of course... is What Records? Given Sam's statement that:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. (4.05, SAMWELL)

So perhaps we should say eroded from the records

[Black Crow]

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna = Jon

If we discount Whent he's the only one who doesn't have an alibi; we have the Starfall connection -perhaps reinforced by the AFFC synopsis above; there's the way Lord Eddard speaks of him - far more often and far more approvingly than he ever does of Rhaegar [something overlooked by the other lot] and above all its not so %*#$=+ obvious as R+L=J

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So perhaps we should say eroded from the records

Perhaps so. But as Bran recalls the story (in ASOS chapter 56), the language Martin uses is this:

• It was [at the Nightfort] that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man.

• After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

[Black Crow]

Actually, it occurs to me that the Starfall reference in the AFFC synopsis probably has nothing to do with revelations as to Jon's father. Its the timing you see. Although its supposedly setting out what's happening in that book we now know that a lot of it carried over into ADwD. Not only has Jon's parentage not been discussed thus far but the story is nowhere near it becoming an issue. What has happened however is Aegon, supposedly Rhaegar's son he's widely believed to be a fake, but we do have the theory about him being smuggled by Ashara Dayne to Starfall - before both of them turn up on that poleboat 15 years later. That would fit the Rhaegar and Starfall reference in the synopsis.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps so. But as Bran recalls the story (in ASOS chapter 56), the language Martin uses is this:

• It was [at the Nightfort] that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man.

• After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Mind you, if we go with both Old Nan's story and Maester Yandel's version in the World Book, for someone supposedly "wiped from the memory of man" there seems to be enough remembrance of him to support a healthy debate as to his name.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If we discount Whent he's the only one who doesn't have an alibi...

Not sure what this means. Who is on your list of people with alibis? Mine is divided into two essential groups...

1. Dead at the time (Brandon, Lord Rickard, etc.)

Stark-Tully wedding guest-book signees (Jon Arryn, Bobby B., their armies, etc.)

Everyone else, I'd consider fair game...

[Frey family reunion]

Perhaps so. But as Bran recalls the story (in ASOS chapter 56), the language Martin uses is this:

• It was [at the Nightfort] that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man.

• After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Perhaps something similar to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Perhaps something similar to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

Yes, that looks about right.

Erosion aside, here's the other relevant text probably worth considering here...

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood..." (5.34, BRAN)

[Black Crow]

Perhaps something similar to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

I like that one. It rather suggests he was never known as the Nights King in life, but was given that title after his overthrow in order to refer to him without speaking his name

[Balerion06]

And the interesting question, of course... is What Records? Given Sam's statement that:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. (4.05, SAMWELL)

This just might be a case of, as Sam says in the same chapter, the old First Men legends incorporating historical anachronisms after being written down by the Andals. The same way knights begin to appear in their myths before knights even existed in Westeros, so too could something as mundane as "records" .

[Black Crow]

Not sure what this means. Who is on your list of people with alibis? Mine is divided into two essential groups...

1. Dead at the time (Brandon, Lord Rickard, etc.)

Stark-Tully wedding guest-book signees (Jon Arryn, Bobby B., their armies, etc.)

Everyone else, I'd consider fair game...

I should perhaps qualify that by saying suspects who don't have alibis. I really do think that it in terms of those known to be around it comes down to Rhaegar and Arthur and that if you look behind the "obvious" Rhaegar fix and all the nonsense of secret weddings, then Arthur looks pretty good.

[Balerion06]

I should perhaps qualify that by saying suspects who don't have alibis. I really do think that it in terms of those known to be around it comes down to Rhaegar and Arthur and that if you look behind the "obvious" Rhaegar fix and all the nonsense of secret weddings, then Arthur looks pretty good.

At least Arthur doesn't require some convoluted polygamous marriage that no religion in Westeros would have sanctioned.

[Black Crow]

At least Arthur doesn't require some convoluted polygamous marriage that no religion in Westeros would have sanctioned.

The Faith aside, its something which requires Lyanna to assent to it, and requires messers Hightower, Whent and Dayne to at least go along with it.

[Balerion06]

The Faith aside, its something which requires Lyanna to assent to it, and requires messers Hightower, Whent and Dayne to at least go along with it.

Even if Lyanna assents to it, the practice of the Old Gods south of the Wall certainly appears to prohibit it.

Otherwise somebody really should have told Robb that he had a get-out-of-jail-free card before old Waldy decided to stick Grey Wind's head on his corpse.

[JNR]

Even if Lyanna assents to it, the practice of the Old Gods south of the Wall certainly appears to prohibit it.

Otherwise somebody really should have told Robb that he had a get-out-of-jail-free card before old Waldy decided to stick Grey Wind's head on his corpse.

Yes, this is basically how I see it.

If we accept the idea of polygamous marriages that spit on prior arrangements, in order to justify Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, then this dialogue starts to make sense in ASOS:

Walder: Traitor mofo!

Robb: Dude. Chill. Jeyne is the backup wife. Barely even a wife. More a concubine. Your daughter will be Wife #1. Real deal, official-like. Much respect for House Frey! Descendants to inherit Winterfell and the North!

Walder: (beat to think) Oh! Well... well then that's okay! It's like Rhaegar, with Elia and Lyanna!

Robb: Exactly!

The way Rhaegar always seems to be gifted with such free passes in fan theories, to support whatever people want to believe even when it contradicts far more established precedents, continues to perplex and amuse me.

Recently I saw it stated with utter confidence that Rhaegar was never, ever without the immediate presence of his sworn swords Dayne and Whent... except when he was at Summerhall. And even then, they were prowling the perimeter of Summerhall.

And I thought: Let's hope nobody walked into Rhaegar's bedroom without knocking. Pull back the covers and what do you find?

[Black Crow]

Jon Connington? :devil:

[JNR]

And Dayne. And Whent. All hiding. Hopefully in pajamas.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar has a "How did they get there?" look on his face.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@ JNR: Almost. Here are my suggestions:

...

Walder: Traitor mofo! Heh.

Robb: Dude. Chill. Jeyne is the backup wife. Barely even a wife. More a concubine. Your daughter will be Wife #1. Real deal, official-like. Much respect for House Frey! Descendants to inherit Winterfell and the North!

Walder: Heh. (beat to think) Oh! Heh. Well... (heh) ... well then that's okay! Heh! It's like Rhaegar, heh, with Elia and, heh, Lyanna! Heh.

Robb: Exactly! (pause) Heh.

Walder: (sharp look) What's that?!.

Robb: Oh... uh, nothing. My lord.

Walder: 'S what I thought. Heh.