Heresy 159

[The Reckoner]

Wasn't that 2002 AFFC synopsis debunked?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wasn't that 2002 AFFC synopsis debunked?

Oh, it's worse than that. It was superceded. By the book itself, which was secretly published in 2005. You might say that's like being debunked - but only if you managed to acquire a copy. :)

[Balerion06]

So, anybody got any ideas on what the Faceless Men want with the Citadel?

The General forum tends not to give much focus to this topic. I suspect it's quite integral to the plot, considering the maesters are knee-deep in dabbling with magic and its eventual resurgence in Westeros.

[Black Crow]

Wasn't that 2002 AFFC synopsis debunked?

As Snowfyre says it was overtaken by events. Remember it goes back to 2002. Quite a lot of it didn't feature in AFFC as advertised, but has since appeared in ADwD. In fact I think the only thing that hasn't is Baristan telling Danaerys about Starfall and in the context I reckon that's about Aegon rather than Jon. At some point in the not so very distant future Danaerys is going to learn that somebody calling himself Aegon Targaryen is conquering "her" Seven Kingdoms and that I'd suggest is going to be Baristan's cue to go, "Ah... should have told you about your nephew Aegon..."

[Voice]

What is A+L=J? Aerys + Lyanna= Jon? Or Ashara + someone = Jon? Or something else?

@wolfmaiden: this was kind answered already, but I'm pretty sure the 13th LC's name was erased from records so it would be forgotten.

Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

And the interesting question, of course... is What Records? Given Sam's statement that:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. (4.05, SAMWELL)

Indeed. What records? The way Old Nan tells it, his name was simply forbidden. This makes a lot more sense to me than destroying records before First Men began keeping records.

Not to dismiss runes, but they seem more ornamental than literary...

Perhaps so. But as Bran recalls the story (in ASOS chapter 56), the language Martin uses is this:

• It was [at the Nightfort] that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man.
• After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

While that language clearly points to records being destroyed, it also sounds very after-the-fact. If we move the Andal Invasion closer to the long night, the records might have existed closer to the time of his reign. If not, then like the records Samwell has found, they were written thousands of years later...then....those mentioning NK were destroyed. Doesn't make a lot of sense...

Mind you, if we go with both Old Nan's story and Maester Yandel's version in the World Book, for someone supposedly "wiped from the memory of man" there seems to be enough remembrance of him to support a healthy debate as to his name.

Agreed. I'd say there are few ways to ensure a name lives on than to forbid people to speak it.

I like that one. It rather suggests he was never known as the Nights King in life, but was given that title after his overthrow in order to refer to him without speaking his name

It fits.

"Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule."

He was a man like any other by day. Named Stark.

This just might be a case of, as Sam says in the same chapter, the old First Men legends incorporating historical anachronisms after being written down by the Andals. The same way knights begin to appear in their myths before knights even existed in Westeros, so too could something as mundane as "records" .

This is how I see it as well. Originally, his name was forbidden, which makes sense for a society maintaining an oral history. Later on, after the Andal Invasion, this forbidding of the name became records of his name were destroyed.

Knights before there were knights, and records before there were records.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't really like the idea of Arthur being Jon's dad, but if you're looking for some parallels in the story, at the very same tourney, Brandon asked Ashara for a dance with Ned, since Ned was too shy to ask himself. So it would be a clever reversal, that Rhaegar approaches Lyanna for Arthur.

[wolfmaid7]

What better way to upset a Baratheon Stark alliance by trying to sneak a play in for your boy on the down low.

Thanks all for the info on the name for the Nights King.I remember the Old Nan info about him being a Bolton or Stark I just couldn't remember if we had settled on which Stark it might have been.

[Voice]

So, anybody got any ideas on what the Faceless Men want with the Citadel?

The General forum tends not to give much focus to this topic. I suspect it's quite integral to the plot, considering the maesters are knee-deep in dabbling with magic and its eventual resurgence in Westeros.

Well, one maester is dabbling... the rest seem diametrically opposed to magic. That Samwell chapter is pretty cool when he meets Marwyn. We learn the Citadel has proactively sought to suppress magic. No wonder all those Targaryens failed to hatch their dragon eggs! Too many grey mice about the Red Keep all those years, eating their old parchments.

I don't know about integral to the plot, but the Faceless Man in the Citadel is there to do one thing, and one thing only. People like to think the Faceless Men are spies. And while they do collect secrets, they are assassins. Someone at the Citadel is marked for death.

Has Samwell made a powerful enemy? Seems unlikely Ser Puddles' brother would hire a Faceless Man. Alleras or Marwyn would be my guess. Dany seems even more likely, if Marwyn brings Pate with him to Meereen.

We know how much time Faceless Men spend planning their perfect assassinations, and it would seem unlikely "Pate" didn't know news would soon reach Marwyn that would compel him to go to Dany's side. Either the Faceless Men don't want that to happen, or they do, so they can kill Dany. We know they aren't fond of Valyrian Dragonlords :devil:

[Frey family reunion]

I still prefer the idea of Rhaegar making Lyanna their May Queen, with Howland playing the part of the Green Man.

[Frey family reunion]

Well, one maester is dabbling... the rest seem diametrically opposed to magic. That Samwell chapter is pretty cool when he meets Marwyn. We learn the Citadel has proactively sought to suppress magic. No wonder all those Targaryens failed to hatch their dragon eggs! Too many grey mice about the Red Keep all those years, eating their old parchments.

I don't know about integral to the plot, but the Faceless Man in the Citadel is there to do one thing, and one thing only. People like to think the Faceless Men are spies. And while they do collect secrets, they are assassins. Someone at the Citadel is marked for death.

Has Samwell made a powerful enemy? Seems unlikely Ser Puddles' brother would hire a Faceless Man. Alleras or Marwyn would be my guess. Dany seems even more likely, if Marwyn brings Pate with him to Meereen.

We know how much time Faceless Men spend planning their perfect assassinations, and it would seem unlikely "Pate" didn't know news would soon reach Marwyn that would compel him to go to Dany's side. Either the Faceless Men don't want that to happen, or they do, so they can kill Dany. We know they aren't fond of Valyrian Dragonlords :devil:

I'm not completely sold on the idea of the Maesters being opposed to magic. I would guess that they are more opposed to magic that they are not in control of. I don't truly believe that the Valyrian candle initiation is merely an object lesson. It appears that they are actively looking for apprentices that can tap into this kind of magic.

[Voice]

Thanks all for the info on the name for the Nights King.I remember the Old Nan info about him being a Bolton or Stark I just couldn't remember if we had settled on which Stark it might have been.

His first name seems lost to time, but mayhaps his name was Brandon... Mayhaps he slept in this very Sidhe Hill ;)

[Frey family reunion]

Oh, it's worse than that. It was superceded. By the book itself, which was secretly published in 2005. You might say that's like being debunked - but only if you managed to acquire a copy. :)

Don't you hate it when a book comes out and ruins a perfectly fine synopsis, or outline proposal?

[Voice]

I still prefer the idea of Rhaegar making Lyanna their May Queen, with Howland playing the part of the Green Man.

Me 2.

I'm not completely sold on the idea of the Maesters being opposed to magic. I would guess that they are more opposed to magic that they are not in control of. I don't truly believe that the Valyrian candle initiation is merely an object lesson. It appears that they are actively looking for apprentices that can tap into this kind of magic.

Not according to Luwin, who admitted fancying magics himself in his youth. I can see how you might infer that interpretation, but given Marwyn's account of the Citadel's war on magic, and killing the dragons, it seems unlikely. When the Dragons were gone, Magic lessened in the world. Why kill them off if you want the glass candles lit?

Plus, it makes sense from the point of view of their own interests. Who needs a maester's dusty books, medicines, and rookery, when a magician can heal, interpret prophecies, and communicate across the world at an instant.

[Frey family reunion]

Me 2.

Not according to Luwin, who admitted fancying magics himself in his youth. I can see how you might infer that interpretation, but given Marwyn's account of the Citadel's war on magic, and killing the dragons, it seems unlikely. When the Dragons were gone, Magic lessened in the world. Why kill them off if you want the glass candles lit?

Plus, it makes sense from the point of view of their own interests. Who needs a maester's dusty books, medicines, and rookery, when a magician can heal, interpret prophecies, and communicate across the world at an instant.

Of course that's what they tell the students who just end up cutting themselves on the damned thing. Or perhaps those that do see "the light" get an added treat with their porridge the next morning.

[WeaselPie]

Actually, it occurs to me that the Starfall reference in the AFFC synopsis probably has nothing to do with revelations as to Jon's father. Its the timing you see. Although its supposedly setting out what's happening in that book we now know that a lot of it carried over into ADwD. Not only has Jon's parentage not been discussed thus far but the story is nowhere near it becoming an issue. What has happened however is Aegon, supposedly Rhaegar's son he's widely believed to be a fake, but we do have the theory about him being smuggled by Ashara Dayne to Starfall - before both of them turn up on that poleboat 15 years later. That would fit the Rhaegar and Starfall reference in the synopsis.

I've suggested it often, and I believe it. Aegon was the KG's job in Dorne.

[Balerion06]

Well, one maester is dabbling... the rest seem diametrically opposed to magic. That Samwell chapter is pretty cool when he meets Marwyn. We learn the Citadel has proactively sought to suppress magic. No wonder all those Targaryens failed to hatch their dragon eggs! Too many grey mice about the Red Keep all those years, eating their old parchments.

I don't know about integral to the plot, but the Faceless Man in the Citadel is there to do one thing, and one thing only. People like to think the Faceless Men are spies. And while they do collect secrets, they are assassins. Someone at the Citadel is marked for death.

Has Samwell made a powerful enemy? Seems unlikely Ser Puddles' brother would hire a Faceless Man. Alleras or Marwyn would be my guess. Dany seems even more likely, if Marwyn brings Pate with him to Meereen.

We know how much time Faceless Men spend planning their perfect assassinations, and it would seem unlikely "Pate" didn't know news would soon reach Marwyn that would compel him to go to Dany's side. Either the Faceless Men don't want that to happen, or they do, so they can kill Dany. We know they aren't fond of Valyrian Dragonlords :devil:

That seems... kinda unnecessarily convoluted. Why go through all this trouble of hiding in the Citadel as a low level student on the off-chance a maester may take you to go meet Dany?

My own guess is that considering the Faceless Men basically worship Death, there's something in the Citadel of great magical importance. Probably something powerful and terrible that the Faceless Men believe only their order is equipped to handle due to their closeness with "death".

[Black Crow]

I've suggested it often, and I believe it. Aegon was the KG's job in Dorne.

And won't that disappoint some people if it comes up early in WoW? :devil:

[Black Crow]

Not according to Luwin, who admitted fancying magics himself in his youth. I can see how you might infer that interpretation, but given Marwyn's account of the Citadel's war on magic, and killing the dragons, it seems unlikely. When the Dragons were gone, Magic lessened in the world. Why kill them off if you want the glass candles lit?

Plus, it makes sense from the point of view of their own interests. Who needs a maester's dusty books, medicines, and rookery, when a magician can heal, interpret prophecies, and communicate across the world at an instant.

I suppose, in considering their interests, it depends on whose side they're on - remember that bit in the synopsis about maester and greenseer coming together? Whatever the actual dynamics it suggests that they are a lot more deeply involved than the protestations of some suggest.

[Voice]

That seems... kinda unnecessarily convoluted. Why go through all this trouble of hiding in the Citadel as a low level student on the off-chance a maester may take you to go meet Dany?

My own guess is that considering the Faceless Men basically worship Death, there's something in the Citadel of great magical importance. Probably something powerful and terrible that the Faceless Men believe only their order is equipped to handle due to their closeness with "death".

Is it an off-chance if they know Marwyn will go? Wants to go? Not really.

And respectfully, my convoluted interpretation at least includes assassination... yours sounds moreso because it doesn't. It's hard for me to imagine the Citadel has anything related to death the Faceless Men haven't already mastered. Theirs may even be the elder temple.

[Voice]

I suppose, in considering their interests, it depends on whose side they're on - remember that bit in the synopsis about maester and greenseer coming together? Whatever the actual dynamics it suggests that they are a lot more deeply involved than the protestations of some suggest.

Involved as the Wolf is with the Lion. Enemies.