The University Reform War

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

The New Yorker posted this article on what's happening now in my state regarding NC Republican attempts to reform the UNC system and upper level education.

I do not deny that upper education needs reform, but should universities exist for the purpose of state job creation? Should the value of a degree be measured in dollars? Should liberal arts be deemphasized in favor of business/STEM degrees?

[Malik Ambar]

But what you are refering to (I guess) is the politicization of higher education. What does STEM/business degree have to do with it ? (i may be a little biased towards emphasizing STEM degrees, only because in my country one must have a degree in those fields or business , etc. Liberal Arts is literally going to get you nowhere.)

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

But what you are refering to (I guess) is the politicization of higher education. What does STEM/business degree have to do with it ? (i may be a little biased towards emphasizing STEM degrees, only because in my country one must have a degree in those fields or business , etc. Liberal Arts is literally going to get you nowhere.)

What does it have to do with it? It's as you say: "the politicization of higher education." That's a part of it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

But what you are refering to (I guess) is the politicization of higher education. What does STEM/business degree have to do with it ? (i may be a little biased towards emphasizing STEM degrees, only because in my country one must have a degree in those fields or business , etc. Liberal Arts is literally going to get you nowhere.)

Hahahahahahaha. Millions of liberal arts majors that went somewhere are laughing at you.

[Altherion]

It seems to me that the original article is not so much about STEM vs. liberal arts as it is about the content of what is taught in courses that concern morality. The state legislators don't want to eliminate philosophy, they want to teach frameworks in which capitalism is moral as well as various other ideas which are currently not very popular in academia. It'll be interesting to see how far they can get with this -- on the one hand, universities are generally pretty independent, but on the other, in the long term, whoever provides the funding makes the rules.

[Malik Ambar]

Hahahahahahaha. Millions of liberal arts majors that went somewhere are laughing at you.

I'm not in the US. Here in India the education enviornment is totally different. Even people who have B.As or even M.As in liberal arts have to get a MBA to get a job. Stupid system , I know, and i also don't approve of this engineer/MBA mass-producing system our country has become, but that's how it is.

[Malik Ambar]

What does it have to do with it? It's as you say: "the politicization of higher education." That's a part of it.

The artcle above didn't say anything about encouraging STEM over liberal arts as much as the Government interfering in activities they deemed to be against their ideology. I am reading up about the politicization and how it's related to preference to STEM though.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

The artcle above didn't say anything about encouraging STEM over liberal arts as much as the Government interfering in activities they deemed to be against their ideology. I am reading up about the politicization and how it's related to preference to STEM though.

Job creation.

It seems to me that the original article is not so much about STEM vs. liberal arts as it is about the content of what is taught in courses that concern morality. The state legislators don't want to eliminate philosophy, they want to teach frameworks in which capitalism is moral as well as various other ideas which are currently not very popular in academia. It'll be interesting to see how far they can get with this -- on the one hand, universities are generally pretty independent, but on the other, in the long term, whoever provides the funding makes the rules.

I'm not claiming that it's about STEM vs. the liberal arts, but the reforms do tie in with investing more into business/STEM for purposes of job creation and de-investing in liberal arts in regards to "morality." See McCrony's comment in the article about how public funds should not be used for supporting degrees in Swahili or gender studies.

[ThinkerX]

Hmmm...

...so the intent, then, would be to mass produce businessman lacking morals? Or perhaps libertarian morals?

[sologdin]

how much can the local subliterates dick up chapel hill? isn't federal moneys used to fund liberal arts students?

[Pecan]

What bothers me in these debates on higher education is how extreme people are about it. You either take the perspective that universities should only be about job creation and return on investment or you take the diametrically opposing view that the purpose of the university is to provide an "education" and produce well-rounded adults. But what's been true for many decades is that universities do both with varying degrees of success. My personal view is this: I support the liberal arts and I think they have a place in higher education and I don't want them to go away, but based on my own experience and difficulties patching a career together, I think it makes sense for states to shift emphasis towards majors that do send kids down more of a defined career path. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[The King in Black]

What bothers me in these debates on higher education is how extreme people are about it. You either take the perspective that universities should only be about job creation and return on investment or you take the diametrically opposing view that the purpose of the university is to provide an "education" and produce well-rounded adults. But what's been true for many decades is that universities do both with varying degrees of success. My personal view is this: I support the liberal arts and I think they have a place in higher education and I don't want them to go away, but based on my own experience and difficulties patching a career together, I think it makes sense for states to shift emphasis towards majors that do send kids down more of a defined career path. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

^this , but don't you guys think that in this time and age , STEM/business degrees should be given a slightly higher emphasis ?

[Ormond]

Personally, my personal preference would be for STEM to be emphasized more and business degrees emphasized less. I think that combination would be more likely to lead to the sort of world I would like to see in the future. We need more scientific literacy, but I think business is doing quite well enough right now, thank you.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Personally, my personal preference would be for STEM to be emphasized more and business degrees emphasized less. I think that combination would be more likely to lead to the sort of world I would like to see in the future. We need more scientific literacy, but I think business is doing quite well enough right now, thank you.

I'm not sure what the point of business degrees are either, particularly at the undergraduate level. What couldn't be learned "on-site" through the business?

I also don't get why the STEM vs. Liberal Arts is so focused at the collegiate level? Why don't the state and federal powers that be focus this debate earlier during primary school? If they are that worried about not enough people going into STEM, why not improve the groundwork earlier? I feel that too much of the college level is about expending effort to catch high school students up to the expected college level in the STEMs. The liberal arts should be raising its standards, but universities have lowered those standards? Why, because they use the liberal arts to just funnel students through the university system. If that's addressed early in high school, I think that the STEM vs. liberal arts situation will stabilize.

[Seli]

^this , but don't you guys think that in this time and age , STEM/business degrees should be given a slightly higher emphasis ?

Business degrees ought to be given a lot less attention, in my opinion :p.

And if you purely look at the job-market there too many people graduating in many STEM fields already. Yes the tools thought are transferable, and the mind-set that is thought is useful in life as well but that is true for almost any education.

[Solmyr]

My opinion as a business major is that the world as a whole needs a lot more STEM graduates than business and liberal arts combined. Whether the current inflow of STEM graduates is being put to good use is another matter, but as a society and civilization, science and technology should be our top priority for the foreseeable future.

What is subsidized on a country or state level is an entirely different matter - it would be based on strategic and regional policies and the interests of the country/state. Some of these interests would not be the same as the interests of humankind as a whole, which is a pity.

[straits]

Business degrees ought to be given a lot less attention, in my opinion :P.

And if you purely look at the job-market there too many people graduating in many STEM fields already. Yes the tools thought are transferable, and the mind-set that is thought is useful in life as well but that is true for almost any education.

If the majority of the job market involves selling and using technology, it does make sense that there would be an overwhelming number of STEM graduates. I don't actually think that's the case worldwide. Is this a US phenomenon?

My opinion as a business major is that the world as a whole needs a lot more STEM graduates than business and liberal arts combined. Whether the current inflow of STEM graduates is being put to good use is another matter, but as a society and civilization, science and technology should be our top priority for the foreseeable future.

I agree with this fundamentally, but the monetary system is often about creating a need or a want that wasn't there before, so the application of the STEM workforce really isn't as utilitarian as it might sound.

[Seli]

If the majority of the job market involves selling and using technology, it does make sense that there would be an overwhelming number of STEM graduates. I don't actually think that's the case worldwide. Is this a US phenomenon?

...

You don't need an STEM degree to use or sell most technology, some level of comfort and understanding is often enough. The true value of STEM degrees is earlier in the pipeline, in research, development, production. And in those fields there are usually more people interested and qualified in working already than there are jobs available. Which is a status that seems to be common in much of the developed world.

eg http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

You must have seen the warning a thousand times: Too few young people study scientific or technical subjects, businesses can’t find enough workers in those fields, and the country’s competitive edge is threatened.

It pretty much doesn’t matter what country you’re talking about—the United States is facing this crisis, as is Japan, the United Kingdom, Australia, China, Brazil, South Africa, Singapore, India…the list goes on. In many of these countries, the predicted shortfall of STEM (short for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) workers is supposed to number in the hundreds of thousands or even the millions.

...

And yet, alongside such dire projections, you’ll also find reports suggesting just the opposite—that there are more STEM workers than suitable jobs. One study found, for example, that wages for U.S. workers in computer and math fields have largely stagnated since 2000. Even as the Great Recession slowly recedes, STEM workers at every stage of the career pipeline, from freshly minted grads to mid- and late-career Ph.D.s, still struggle to find employment as many companies, including Boeing, IBM, and Symantec, continue to lay off thousands of STEM workers.

...

or http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I have a slightly divided opinion on the issue: a 4 yr college education should be about becoming a well rounded adult. Graduate work focused more on career preparation.

I also fully believe in vocational education (trade schools)

I just don't like the idea of business or even STEM in a vacuum. Philosophy, history and the ability to communicate are extremely important, no matter what field of study you are in. "They were so focused on 'could they do it' they never stopped to think should they do it." ---Micheal Crichton, Jurassic Park

[straits]

I just don't like the idea of business or even STEM in a vacuum. Philosophy, history and the ability to communicate are extremely important, no matter what field of study you are in. "They were so focused on 'could they do it' they never stopped to think should they do it." ---Micheal Crichton, Jurassic Park

I would say that the ability to communicate along with a grasp on philosophy is something that humans in general should have, as opposed to having careers dedicated to these (you did say no matter what field, so I agree). A 4 year college education is far too expensive to be have a "well rounded adult" as its primary or even secondary goal, unless "well rounded" includes hard skill acquisition. I think there's a lot of 4-year degrees available which are struggling to justify their length, cost or even existence.