The University Reform War

[sologdin]

I just don't like the idea of business or even STEM in a vacuum. Philosophy, history and the ability to communicate are extremely important, no matter what field of study you are in. "They were so focused on 'could they do it' they never stopped to think should they do it." ---Micheal Crichton, Jurassic Park

am a believer that management theory has a place even in post-capitalist society--but, yeah, it needs to be balanced against humanizing influences in the training of managers. and engineers need to double down on courses that'll undouche them. where i did my BA, the engineers went five years and took three liberal arts courses. no wonder they're all lumpenized antisocial nihilists.

[Jo498]

Business should definitely not be lumped with "STEM". I am not sure but I think a lot of "business" could be vocational training as it used to be. I do not know about the US (where the huge amounts of debt people go into for an "education" of doubtful value seems pretty dysfunctional). But I think it was a mistake to cast almost everything into the form of a 3-4 year college degree. Also in Germany way too many people try to go to university (but at least here they usually do not have to go into debt). I am in favor of humanities but I would advise a very different strategy here: More and better education in those subjects in secondary schools but rather "elite" character and restricted access for college level.

Depending on the system it might make sense to put humanities into the first college year for general education (although I believe that it would be better to have more of this pre-college). But precisely because humanities do not correspond to an obvious job description I think there should be "deterrence" in the form of requirements of very high grades, several foreign or classical languages, whatever. I have no problem with some people doing "gender studies" but one should better focus on this for senior/postgraduate work after having "proved oneself" in a more "traditional" humanities course with rigorous demands. I do have a problem with people doing gender studies or philosophy or English literature because they do not really know what to do with their lives.

As for STEM. These subjects are hard and one cannot simply press people into it. There are also very good reasons not to loosen standards for e.g. civil engineers. (A few months ago there was a debate in German papers because a professor from a technical/engineering college had argued for reducing the maths classes because many students were struggling here (and embarrasingly with rather basic stuff I would have assumed for someone considering engineering even before university) and beause many engineers would later on work in more general management or whatever positions anyway. This seems very misguided to me.)

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

am a believer that management theory has a place even in post-capitalist society--but, yeah, it needs to be balanced against humanizing influences in the training of managers. and engineers need to double down on courses that'll undouche them. where i did my BA, the engineers went five years and took three liberal arts courses. no wonder they're all lumpenized antisocial nihilists.

My personal belief about management theory is that it's very similar to education theory: most practical success is due to heuristics, common sense, social skills, and above all, practical experience rather than application of academic theories.

Of course, there's also process optimization, linear programming, and resource management, and all that, but to my slightly social skill deprived self, that seems like the easy part by far.

[Kat]

am a believer that management theory has a place even in post-capitalist society--but, yeah, it needs to be balanced against humanizing influences in the training of managers. and engineers need to double down on courses that'll undouche them. where i did my BA, the engineers went five years and took three liberal arts courses. no wonder they're all lumpenized antisocial nihilists.

On the flip side, I've always felt a bit ripped off in life that I went to an engineering school for my B.S. and had to take at least 12 quarters of liberal arts, while my sister, who got a theater degree from a general university, managed to fulfill her entire math and science requirement by having taken an AP science course in high school and taking one quarter of a programming class. I actually enjoyed my humanities classes, but I find the science general education requirements from most U.S. universities to be lacking.

It may be true that many engineers are lacking in humanity. My entire dating profile is designed to screen out technolibertarians that are so common around here so I don't have to spend all my free time arguing or find out at the end of a few dates that they want to dismantle all labor unions or whatever. But I still find the lack of numeracy and scientific literacy of your average American adult university graduate appalling.

[Shryke]

My personal belief about management theory is that it's very similar to education theory: most practical success is due to heuristics, common sense, social skills, and above all, practical experience rather than application of academic theories.

I'd say they are both in the same category, but for the exact opposite reason. Both are fields where practical application is dominated by "common sense" and "the way things have always been done" rather then any actual research about what works.

[Kat]

Having read a lot of educational research papers, I can say there is actual research, but in general the research methods and writing style would probably offend most people used to reading serious science stuff.

[Pecan]

On the flip side, I've always felt a bit ripped off in life that I went to an engineering school for my B.S. and had to take at least 12 quarters of liberal arts, while my sister, who got a theater degree from a general university, managed to fulfill her entire math and science requirement by having taken an AP science course in high school and taking one quarter of a programming class. I actually enjoyed my humanities classes, but I find the science general education requirements from most U.S. universities to be lacking.

It may be true that many engineers are lacking in humanity. My entire dating profile is designed to screen out technolibertarians that are so common around here so I don't have to spend all my free time arguing or find out at the end of a few dates that they want to dismantle all labor unions or whatever. But I still find the lack of numeracy and scientific literacy of your average American adult university graduate appalling.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel like 12 quarters of liberal arts within your BS curriculum was too much and you would have liked more science/STEM stuff. But, at the same time, for dating, you're screening out these so called technolibertarian types. It seems like those types are exactly the people that would have benefited from 12 quarters of liberal arts/humanities that you feel was too much.

[Altherion]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel like 12 quarters of liberal arts within your BS curriculum was too much and you would have liked more science/STEM stuff. But, at the same time, for dating, you're screening out these so called technolibertarian types. It seems like those types are exactly the people that would have benefited from 12 quarters of liberal arts/humanities that you feel was too much.

The assumption you are making is that more liberal arts and humanities would have made them better people. Given the relative frequency of humanities majors in law and government, I very much doubt that this is the case. ;)

[sologdin]

On the flip side, I've always felt a bit ripped off in life that I went to an engineering school for my B.S. and had to take at least 12 quarters of liberal arts, while my sister, who got a theater degree from a general university, managed to fulfill her entire math and science requirement by having taken an AP science course in high school and taking one quarter of a programming class. I actually enjoyed my humanities classes, but I find the science general education requirements from most U.S. universities to be lacking.

It may be true that many engineers are lacking in humanity. My entire dating profile is designed to screen out technolibertarians that are so common around here so I don't have to spend all my free time arguing or find out at the end of a few dates that they want to dismantle all labor unions or whatever. But I still find the lack of numeracy and scientific literacy of your average American adult university graduate appalling.

your objection is conceded. i wish i knew more mathematics proper, as opposed merely to philosophy & history of mathematics, say. but i'll be vivisected before i do any actual science experiments. gah. popper & kuhn are sufficient.

[Larry of the Lawn]

your objection is conceded. i wish i knew more mathematics proper, as opposed merely to philosophy & history of mathematics, say. but i'll be vivisected before i do any actual science experiments. gah. popper & kuhn are sufficient.

C'mon, we all know you just want to improve your gnostic war cants.

[Kat]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel like 12 quarters of liberal arts within your BS curriculum was too much and you would have liked more science/STEM stuff. But, at the same time, for dating, you're screening out these so called technolibertarian types. It seems like those types are exactly the people that would have benefited from 12 quarters of liberal arts/humanities that you feel was too much.

No, I'm merely saying that if I had to take 12 quarters of liberal arts, then why not require humanities majors to do the same for science/math/etc.? I might have grumbled about it a little bit at the time (I had truly awful English classes in high school and picked a college where I could avoid having to take any if I didn't want to) but I ended up enjoying them, mostly.

ETA: solo, not every science class involves "science experiments". I recommend geology. Delightful rocks!

[sologdin]

i had 6 hours geology (fossil record/evolutionary history), 6 hours astronomy, and a few other thingies. it was all kickass, but the laboratory components were shoot-me-now. rest of my BA was literature/philosophy/marxism/gnostic sorcery. oh. and sex. with other human persons. because of the aforesaid.

[Kat]

I hear it's possible to study STEM and still get laid. Maybe only by robots though. :smileysex:

[sologdin]

if more sciencey types replaced their bits with robot parts, i'm all for it.

[Guest]

Delightful rocks? Surely no such thing exists.

larry - Clearly sologdin has thus far been denied the Gnosis. We know this because we yet live. He must be given nothing. Not even the most basic cants. Not the denotaries. Nothing.

[sologdin]

goodness. can you imagine? i have enough liquor in me to admit that the universe would come to a horrifying end in my hands. i'd torch the far right in the first five minutes. regular cappies i'd nuke at my convenience. the rest of you would likely piss me off eventually. it would become a perfect solipsism.

[Guest]

goodness. can you imagine? i have enough liquor in me to admit that the universe would come to a horrifying end in my hands. i'd torch the far right in the first five minutes. regular cappies i'd nuke at my convenience. the rest of you would likely piss me off eventually. it would become a perfect solipsism.

What's a regular cappie? A neoliberal type like Robert Rubin or Lawrence Summers?

[Summah]

I had to take 4 semesters of hard science classes (at least one had to have a lab section), 2 semesters of social science and 1 semester of math, which is slightly more than the 12 quarters of humanities Kat was required. I also had specific humanities requirements (like history, foreign language etc), so A lot of my classes were part of this core, some of which could be applied to my major (comp lit) and some that could not. Electives I took were all arts and humanities classes, mostly fine arts.

[peterbound]

Hahahahahahaha. Dozens of liberal arts majors that went somewhere are laughing at you.

Fixed that for you.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

No, I'm merely saying that if I had to take 12 quarters of liberal arts, then why not require humanities majors to do the same for science/math/etc.? I might have grumbled about it a little bit at the time (I had truly awful English classes in high school and picked a college where I could avoid having to take any if I didn't want to) but I ended up enjoying them, mostly.

ETA: solo, not every science class involves "science experiments". I recommend geology. Delightful rocks!

I had to have 9 hrs of math and 9 hrs of science, and one science course had to include a lab for my liberal arts degree. Guess it all depends on the college (and it was nearly 20 years ago)