Heresy 160

[JNR]

The problem there I would have thought might be keeping control of them and ensuring that they did turn around to attack Castle Black from behind. He did try that of course, using the Thenns, but he didn't send enough of them to ensure success.

You mean if he sent multiple teams over, some or all might blow off their job (of attacking the Watch) and simply run off south?

This might work if they stayed in the Gift, I suppose, since nobody lives there. Otherwise, I'd expect them to be about as successful with that plan as Osha's group.

In the books, Mance has this half-assed excuse for not sending over multiple teams:

"The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

"Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

"Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough."

Blood, schmood. He didn't send 10K guys over the Wall because that would have destroyed GRRM's plot. :cool4:

[LordImp]

Is their any heresy about Stygai and the Shadowlands?

[Morrigan's Raven]

Unless there's just enough left over to keep the Wards going. . . The Wall is said to be rather alive.

Oh, I'd agree that there's been some pretty serious negligence in the maintenance department. Wolfmaid, maybe this is why it's built on what Mel calls a 'hinge,' as if somehow there is a magical presence there that's sustained.

Otherwise there'd have to be regular activity on someone's part. . . blood sacrifices, maybe. And those seem to be going for a different project!

Carrying over from the last conversation...

Eira, are you thinking something like ley lines to fuel the wall?

[Voice]

164.

Nice. So rare to see optimism on these cynical interwebs ;)

I'll have to think about it more before I offer my bet...time for some numerology...

Nah, thought of that. We have the World Book confirming that it was Brandon Stark of Winterfell who brought the Nights King down. Old Nan is the one who describes them as brothers - from Winterfell. Given that Joruman ended up north of the Wall I'm still inclined to think that what was broken was the alliance between them. As to the Horn, we really don't know what it really does but if its something to do with warding it may be that Joruman's contribution to the overthrow of the Nights King was to break the wards that protected him and his.

I still tend to think Old Nan thought they were all Brandons for a reason :devil:

[Eira Seren]

Carrying over from the last conversation...

Eira, are you thinking something like ley lines to fuel the wall?

Wolfmaid might be a better expert on this one :) However, it has to do with the idea that there was something fueling those 14 flames in Valyria (active volcano, yes, but in this world perhaps natural phenomenons are a bit like magical).

Mel has this idea that there's a hinge in this location. The Wall appears to be built along the natural line of the foothills and ridges and high places. Something has been at work there, geologically, and that plus maybe something else in turn is perhaps a sort of magic, which might be used to sustain the structure of rock and ice. Depending.

All very crackpottish.

[Black Crow]

I still tend to think Old Nan thought they were all Brandons for a reason :devil:

There might well be but I don't think that this is one of them

[Mother of Dragons]

Ok, so now that its fresh, wanted to comment on a couple things that were touched earlier- sorry I'm late to the show. I was reading Sam 1 in AFFC, where he's conversing with Jon in the solar. It's on p.100 in my ebook edition.

-don't know if this is relevant, but I had remembered falsely that Jon was the youngest LC. Sam points out he's the 5th youngest, the other 4 were Starks. Maybe you guys aren't sold on R+L=J, but I interpreted that as a hint that he definitely has Stark blood. I don't think a wolf would of been ready for him if he didn't. Those are 2 special correlations.

-The list of LCs: "we say there are 998 LCs of the nightwatch, but the list I found only shows 674, which suggests it was written during...

During what? I know a couple threads back, someone pointed this out, but I'm curious to the rest of Sam's thought. He can't mean by the Septons, right? Supposedly they wrote 1000(s) of yrs after the FM used runes? Maybe 400 leaders equates to that length of time, though and that's what he's referring to- after runes. But how is 998 remembered? Oral tradition? Something else?

-Dragonsteel. I thought at first Valyrian, but rereading I realized I was wrong because it's Sam & Jon's first thought too :). However, not sure dragonsteel is the only way to get an Other. Sam says (paraphrasing) Fires will dismay them, they're vulnerable to obsidian." He then tells how the LH used dragonsteel, but it sounds like dragonsteel isn't their only option.

Also, anyone else up for a reprisal of Symeon Stareyes? Where did he end up wandering off to.

Last- I love how Old Nan seems to be the only person who knows what's going on in Westeros, and the most reliable narrator.

[Black Crow]

Mel has this idea that there's a hinge in this location. The Wall appears to be built along the natural line of the foothills and ridges and high places. Something has been at work there, geologically, and that plus maybe something else in turn is perhaps a sort of magic, which might be used to sustain the structure of rock and ice. Depending.

I don't think that the Wall is following a mystical line in marching regardless o'er hill and dale. GRRM has claimed Hadrian's Wall as an inspiration and it does just that, perhaps most spectacularly along the Whin Sill. Rather I think that in referring to the Wall as one of the great hinges of the world Mel is speaking of the Wall itself and the old magic within it.

[JNR]

-don't know if this is relevant, but I had remembered falsely that Jon was the youngest LC. Sam points out he's the 5th youngest, the other 4 were Starks. Maybe you guys aren't sold on R+L=J, but I interpreted that as a hint that he definitely has Stark blood. I don't think a wolf would of been ready for him if he didn't.

Sure, I think almost all Heretics believe Jon must have at least one Stark parent of some sort. His face alone is a dead giveaway.

[Brianstorm]

I don't think that the Wall is following a mystical line in marching regardless o'er hill and dale. GRRM has claimed Hadrian's Wall as an inspiration and it does just that, perhaps most spectacularly along the Whin Sill. Rather I think that in referring to the Wall as one of the great hinges of the world Mel is speaking of the Wall itself and the old magic within it.

There was a Mithraic Temple at Hadrian's Wall, not sure what you guys can do with this info but it's worth pointing out. From Wiki:

The Mithraeum primarily functioned as an area for initiation, in which the soul descends and exits. The Mithraeum itself was arranged as an "image of the universe". It is noticed by some researchers that this movement, especially in the context of mithraic iconography(see below), seems to stem from the neoplatonic concept that the "running" of the sun from solstice to solstice is a parallel for the movement of the soul through the universe, from pre-existence, into the body, and then beyond the physical body into an afterlife.

Similarly, the Persians call the place a cave where they introduce an initiate to the Mysteries, revealing to him the path by which souls descend and go back again. For Eubulus tells us that Zoroaster was the first to dedicate a natural cave in honour of Mithras, the creator and father of all… this cave bore for him the image of the cosmos which Mithras had created, and the things which the cave contained, by their proportionate arrangement, provided him with symbols of the elements and climates of the cosmos [trans. Arethusa edition]

[Matthew.]

Is their any heresy about Stygai and the Shadowlands?

The entirety of what we know about Stygai is a couple sentences in the WB, so it's hard to know what to make of it. Having said that, my gut reaction is that it's Stygai that is the Heart of Fire and Shadow, rather than Valyria, as is more commonly suggested; I believe it has some significance to the art of the shadowbinders. Based on Quaithe's conversation with Dany in aCoK, I think Martin originally planned a visit to Asshai, but had to scrap it for logistical reasons.

[Matthew.]

Wolfmaid might be a better expert on this one :) However, it has to do with the idea that there was something fueling those 14 flames in Valyria (active volcano, yes, but in this world perhaps natural phenomenons are a bit like magical).

Mel has this idea that there's a hinge in this location. The Wall appears to be built along the natural line of the foothills and ridges and high places. Something has been at work there, geologically, and that plus maybe something else in turn is perhaps a sort of magic, which might be used to sustain the structure of rock and ice. Depending.

All very crackpottish.

My crackpot idea of the "Hinge of the World" a couple threads back was that it's essentially like a fault line--maybe in the magical sense, or maybe even in the more literal sense. I think sounding the Horn of Winter will immediately dissolve the spells in the Wall - which I believe are 'warding' the Hinge in much the same way that the Fourteen Flames were warded into dormancy - and unleash a cataclysm that will both destroy the Wall and start a second Long Night.

[Mother of Dragons]

Sure, I think almost all Heretics believe Jon must have at least one Stark parent of some sort. His face alone is a dead giveaway.

Right- so what do heretics believe the parentage is? I thought on my first read through it was Ned and Ashara, I didn't pick up on R+L until I came here.

[LordImp]

The entirety of what we know about Stygai is a couple sentences in the WB, so it's hard to know what to make of it. Having said that, my gut reaction is that it's Stygai that is the Heart of Fire and Shadow, rather than Valyria, as is more commonly suggested; I believe it has some significance to the art of the shadowbinders. Based on Quaithe's conversation with Dany in aCoK, I think Martin originally planned a visit to Asshai, but had to scrap it for logistical reasons.

Thanks.

[Eira Seren]

There was a Mithraic Temple at Hadrian's Wall, not sure what you guys can do with this info but it's worth pointing out. From Wiki:

The Mithraeum primarily functioned as an area for initiation, in which the soul descends and exits. The Mithraeum itself was arranged as an "image of the universe". It is noticed by some researchers that this movement, especially in the context of mithraic iconography(see below), seems to stem from the neoplatonic concept that the "running" of the sun from solstice to solstice is a parallel for the movement of the soul through the universe, from pre-existence, into the body, and then beyond the physical body into an afterlife.

Similarly, the Persians call the place a cave where they introduce an initiate to the Mysteries, revealing to him the path by which souls descend and go back again. For Eubulus tells us that Zoroaster was the first to dedicate a natural cave in honour of Mithras, the creator and father of all… this cave bore for him the image of the cosmos which Mithras had created, and the things which the cave contained, by their proportionate arrangement, provided him with symbols of the elements and climates of the cosmos [trans. Arethusa edition]

Well. Stairs. Black. Gate.

[Eira Seren]

Right- so what do heretics believe the parentage is? I thought on my first read through it was Ned and Ashara, I didn't pick up on R+L until I came here.

We are delightfully in disarray, a whole variety of ideas and opinions :)

Who do you think right now? :)

[Black Crow]

Exactly so. I think there's a pretty fair consensus that Jon is the son of Lyanna - Ashara is out due not least to Jon and Arya getting it on because Lord Eddard isn't his father [see the synopsis above] but Rhaegar seems way too obvious and lately I've had Ser Artrhur Dayne figured for the paternity suit

[Black Crow]

Well. Stairs. Black. Gate.

Yup, its a pretty common theme in Celtic cultures as well - going into the earth to commune with the dead - not unlike the cave of skulls come to that.

[Mother of Dragons]

We are delightfully in disarray, a whole variety of ideas and opinions :)

Who do you think right now? :)

I was going to leave a hanging participle. I need to finish reading again,but I thought the chink of blue flower on the icy wall in Dany's vision was a sign that they were related. I also thought when I first red about the Daynes, they had Targ blood, as the gene is supposed to be specific, right?

I guess I'm in the R+L camp because I don't think it was obvious until people started posting about it, but I'll pay attention when Ashara is mentioned in Dance when I read through. I'll also read those passages about the Tourney in Harrenhal from SoS, but I have 2,000 pages to read first!

I worked in a bookstore and first read the available books in 2008, and I think have done 2 more rereads- I had to keep up with new releases, but it never ceases to amaze me how much more I picked up each time.

[Mother of Dragons]

Exactly so. I think there's a pretty fair consensus that Jon is the son of Lyanna - Ashara is out due not least to Jon and Arya getting it on because Lord Eddard isn't his father [see the synopsis above] but Rhaegar seems way too obvious and lately I've had Ser Artrhur Dayne figured for the paternity suit

Right, from the first synopsis? Why would Arthur break his oath from the KG to be with Lyanna, though? Was there a romance hinted that I forgot about? What about the blue rose in Dany's vision? I wonder if that was a JS romance with her instead. I get they are pretty different, but the vision didn't seem ominous. I'll have a better opinion when I get further.