Heresy 160

[wolfmaid7]

We've no reason to think every Stark is a greenseer. Bran had the gift in his blood. The others didn't. Else, Lyanna, Benjen, Ned, and Brandon were all greenseers too. As was Rickard. As are the Karstarks. I think you're taking the "blood makes you a greenseer" statement a bit too literally, or applying it too generally.

The kids are not nukes. Dragons are. The Starks are kids. And only LF and BR have gone out of their way to collect one.

Funny you don't consider V6 a warg...his first connection was to a dog after all, and now he has wolves. Seems like a warg to me. And he's proven to be a far more powerful skinchanger than Jon. Greenseers control more than just wolves, that's what makes them special. So V6 is more of a GS than Jon has shown himself to be, because he's skinchanged multiple species of the wood. Jon is only a warg, and not a very gifted one at that...

We have every reason.I think you are not considering the blood angle( seeing how important blood is in this story) enough.What makes Dany different from Viserys though they have the same blood.It's not only about blood,it about that X factor in this case 6 Direwolf pups being born to the 6 Stark kids.Something that never happened before,they had their triggers and not just Wolves or Dogs but creatures that have a magical connection. They were activated whereas Ned and his generation despite having the right blood ,didn't have that X factor.This generation among other things that happened have the right exposure

Em wrong on the collection.....Arya,( collected by FM and wouldn't you know GRRM drops in that visual connection between the KM and BR),Rickon ( En route to being collected but he still has a mentor that will make him "the wild man of the woods"),Jon ( in the process don't know what is about to happen to him while he's out).

If you read my post on V6 i said i can give that an inch because of the dogs,that he and the dogs bonded i missed that.

I disgaree again on Jon,he lacks what V6,Bran,Arya and even Sansa have.....A mentor somebody to teach him and the Starks have been isolated from a deep magical heritage up until.........Games.So that's not a fair assessment at all to measure Jon against V6.

I also disagree on the Stark kids being nukes,i thing that is a very fair description,it all depends on if they eventually remain tools or turn into players thus taking some hand in their own destiny.

[Matthew.]

Depending on what's happening on Skagos, Rickon may also have been collected by a dubious mentor.

[wolfmaid7]

Depending on what's happening on Skagos, Rickon may also have been collected by a dubious mentor.

True,if he spent this time on Skagos who knows what mentoring he got,and i'm not discounting Osha either as a mentor.He may "Wild" but the most excellent Wild man "because" of his gift.

This i think is what Voice is missing.

These kids have an X factor(Greenseeing blood) which will make them the best asset to anyone that has them.

Sansa may never be joined to a tree,or be trained into "wearing skills" though if she were trained in that she could.He gifts maybe molded to make her skilled at people.She may use her gift in the political arena.

Arya's gift is being shaped to suit her being collected as a FM an organization that hides behind changing faces,secrecy stealth.How more successful because of her gift would she be.

Same with Rickon and with Jon it just depends on how they are used and it doesn't have to be the same way.i.e locked to a tree.

Let's say Jon before his untimely exit off the field,he had taken Melissandre's offer to "take her hand" what do we think would have been the outcome? He may have been her fire champion.It just so happens and a blind man could see Jon has ice written all over him,that is what was pulling him and that's what got him.What tool he becomes *Night's king cough* is up for debate.

[King Tyrion XX]

The difference, for me, is this: We know for sure that this chapter was originally written based on a creative whim.

If there's any single chapter in the whole canon that I might point to and say "This wasn't really thought through, GRRM was just sort of winging it based on his sudden inspiration," it would be this one.

And I'd be really surprised if we ever get any explanation for how magic could lead a female direwolf to have six pups, one of which looks and acts different, all of which are found at just the right time, by just the right people, etc. etc.

All of this just seems to be sort of dropped into the canon as it was dropped into GRRM's head. We can take it, like he did, or leave it.

Considering it's that vision that has given us the greatest book series ever IMO and it ain't even finished, the show,etc....I'll take it.

[Voice]

We have every reason.I think you are not considering the blood angle( seeing how important blood is in this story) enough.What makes Dany different from Viserys though they have the same blood.It's not only about blood,it about that X factor in this case 6 Direwolf pups being born to the 6 Stark kids.Something that never happened before,they had their triggers and not just Wolves or Dogs but creatures that have a magical connection. They were activated whereas Ned and his generation despite having the right blood ,didn't have that X factor.This generation among other things that happened have the right exposure

Em wrong on the collection.....Arya,( collected by FM and wouldn't you know GRRM drops in that visual connection between the KM and BR),Rickon ( En route to being collected but he still has a mentor that will make him "the wild man of the woods"),Jon ( in the process don't know what is about to happen to him while he's out).

If you read my post on V6 i said i can give that an inch because of the dogs,that he and the dogs bonded i missed that.

I disgaree again on Jon,he lacks what V6,Bran,Arya and even Sansa have.....A mentor somebody to teach him and the Starks have been isolated from a deep magical heritage up until.........Games.So that's not a fair assessment at all to measure Jon against V6.

I also disagree on the Stark kids being nukes,i thing that is a very fair description,it all depends on if they eventually remain tools or turn into players thus taking some hand in their own destiny.

Arya sought out the FM...not the other way around

[wolfmaid7]

Arya sought out the FM...not the other way around

Because i'm board and because i wanted to use one of the best conversation ever

From the Matrix

Oracle : I'd ask you to sit down...but you're not going to anyway. And

don't worry about the vase.

Neo : What vase?

*crash*, Neo knocks it over.

Oracle : That vase.

Neo : I'm sorry.

Oracle : I _said_ don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix

it.

Neo : How...how did you know?

Oracle : Ohhh

she smiles

Oracle : Whats really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you

still have broken it if I hadn't said anything...

That being said..Did Arya sek out the FM or did she go because she was given a coin and told should she ever be in Bravos show anyman this coin...

Really???? Should she ever be in Bravos...Not all thoughts and actions are our own.All it takes is a seed planted,watered and left to grow.She went to Bravos because she was sent to Bravos.

[King Tyrion XX]

I know the 200 years has been discussed, or at least brought to the table before. Approximately 200 years past The Direwolves 'dissapear' from the north, south of the wall; The Targ Queen visits the Wall, dragon at the wall, Nightfort is abandoned, land is taken from the North and given to the Watch Leaf roams the realms of men. Fwiw.

So what major event happened 200 yrs ago to stir everyone up?

[Eira Seren]

Meh, hail-marying is an exaggeration in my opinion.

As to the overall feeling of the moment, there was palpable unease among the men gathered around the direwolf, I do agree. But, once Jon pointed out the number of pups and their sexes, it went away... palpably.

I think it's an important distinction to make, because rather than causing unease, Jon's comment breaks through the furrowed brows, and completely alters the fate of the Stark children.

Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. “Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation.”

“No!” He could feel tears welling in his eyes, and he looked away. He did not want to cry in front of his father.

Robb resisted stubbornly. “Ser Rodrik’s red bitch whelped again last week,” he said. “It was a small litter, only two live pups. She’ll have milk enough.”

“She’ll rip them apart when they try to nurse.”

“Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.”

“What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”

Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully.

I think it's funny people want to think BR sent the wolf, or CH fathered the pups LOL, but they are simply a plot device. It's quite clear that it was Jon who ensured the old powers would awaken for the Stark children. No one else. He's the one that turned the tide of foreboding omen into a feeling of duty and destiny.

like this

Sorry for intruding...I mostly read the threads, and write very rarely.

I'd like to point out that scene of finding the direwolf pups shows us that all three boys, 2 Starks and 1 half Stark- Bran, Robb and Jon- were not happy with the idea of killing the pups. Bran wanted them to be alive more than any of them, probably, because he is a child, but who knows. Robb didn't want them to be killed as well. In the end, I admit, it was Jon who made his father change his mind.

In addition, I would say that all of the 6 Stark children have at least some abilities (even Sansa) as they all have got direwolves and have magical connection or some kind of bond with them. For some reason, Bran is the strongest, may be because of his injured body. Arya and Jon have shown a strong bond with their wolves, but it seems Bran does his skinchanging a lot easier and more naturally than either of them from the very beginning . I also think that Rickon is a strong warg as well. he is just too young, at least he is shown having the prophetical dreams as well, like Bran. May be is a dreamer like Jojen.

Old Gods are sacred for Jon (probably, because he wasn't a half Tully and he only knew his Father), as Tyrion said that there is "more North in him than in any of his half brothers" and something similar about his looks was said by Catlyne as well, when she compared her sons and Jon. (Accidentally, none of this characters considered comparing Jon and Arya.) That is symbolic: Jon=Ghost (white with red eyes)=Old Gods. Some say Snow-white wolf also is symbolic. But after BR appeared in the cave... I would say Ghost somehow is connected to BR (Old Gods worshiper himself). So may be the fact that it was Jon, who made his father change his mind is also symbolic, showing the strong connection of Old Gods with Jon.

By the way, there are few Blackwood ancestors in Stark family...few Kings and Lords were married to Blackwood women. I find this house very intriguing.

Hello, welcome!

I can't see how anyone cold miss Direwolves south of the Wall,all reports say they have been hunted to extinction in the South.The warging to impregnate makes no sense to me,i don't see how that work either.

I do not know about this one BC,there's nest to nil info on the Wood Dancers except they were Warriors.I wish there was more to go on with regard to them.

CH's fathered the pup..lol how the hell is that suppose to work? I agree,one of the reasons Jon is definitely GS material in my book....Wisdom and who already sees the world and truth beneath the physical.

Welcome to Heresy :cheers:

I take it another Direwolf???

Still, could be?

I'm not completely opposed to there being a more profound reason for the mama direwolf being found south of the wall, but if she is just a symbolic plot device, it still wouldnt negate Gared's purpose, it just amounts to another plot device. there doesnt need to be a conspiracy behind his appearance past the prologue, his execution is how we learn about Stark customs and Ned's views on honor and duty, the penalty for desertion, etc.

it isss interesting to think about how he managed to escape + get over the Wall unnoticed. if it wasnt to shepard the direwolf, maybe it was to bring news of the WW. maybe its like wolfmaid says and they want to be seen, they want word of their return to spread...

*crawls back to cave*

Welcome!

There is the theory of the greenmen involved in the direwolf dilemma, they being apart of the old gods worship. I leaning towards them as more of a Singer + First Man mix... weirwoods and sacrifice and a sprinkling of crows and ravens.

Nice.

Combined with the fact that Leaf says the wolves will outlast them all (don't remember the exact words), I'd say they're magical creatures along with the unicorns Leaf mentions, with long lives.

And either BR warged her to mate, or he warged the male to mate with her. GRRM wouldn't make that close of an association without reason.

But do not think this happened. at all.

So I had something lovely to say about all the rest of this as well, but just don't seem to have the mental to say it sensibly. So, very nice, like a lot.

[Voice]

Because i'm board and because i wanted to use one of the best conversation ever

From the Matrix

Oracle : I'd ask you to sit down...but you're not going to anyway. And

don't worry about the vase.

Neo : What vase?

*crash*, Neo knocks it over.

Oracle : That vase.

Neo : I'm sorry.

Oracle : I _said_ don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix

it.

Neo : How...how did you know?

Oracle : Ohhh

she smiles

Oracle : Whats really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you

still have broken it if I hadn't said anything...

That being said..Did Arya sek out the FM or did she go because she was given a coin and told should she ever be in Bravos show anyman this coin...

Really???? Should she ever be in Bravos...Not all thoughts and actions are our own.All it takes is a seed planted,watered and left to grow.She went to Bravos because she was sent to Bravos.

Totally see what you're saying, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one still...

GRRM is playing the game of tropes. He doesn't apply the rules universally, even his own. He has set up the scenario you describe for one Stark, and one Stark only...his name is Bran. Bran is the only Stark that has been actively seduced because of what his blood contains.

The others simply have not.

Arya found her way to Braavos because she had no where else to go. If Theon hadn't turned his cloak, she would have returned to WF, and kept the faceless coin as a souvenir. The Faceless Men gave her a brochure, but they didn't bypass a hinge of the world trying to recruit her.

like this

:cheers:

So I had something lovely to say about all the rest of this as well, but just don't seem to have the mental to say it sensibly. So, very nice, like a lot.

Uh oh... is Eira still celebrating St Patrick's Day? :shocked:

[Black Crow]

Jon is only a warg, and not a very gifted one at that...

Au contraire, Borroq and the other skinchangers who meet him recognise him as a very powerful one who is not yet aware of his abilities. Whilst every greenseer is a warg it doesn't follow that every warg is a greenseer and as I suggested above Jon, who stands apart from the rest appears destined to be a wood dancer rather than a greenseer

[Black Crow]

Agreed on all counts. A knife seems pretty standard-issue in the Night's Watch.

Gared deserted.

A foot of shattered antler was found lodged in a direwolf's throat.

It takes quite a leap to connect these events. This goes beyond textual analysis and strays into the realm of textual calculus. Where some seem to see a clear picture, I see an extremely patchy collage.

It takes rather more of a leap to ascribe them to mere co-incidence and as Wolfmaid points out the use of an antler bone dagger for the sacrifice - for such it is - has far more significance in terms of magic and symbolism than a common knife of steel or iron.

[Voice]

Au contraire, Borroq and the other skinchangers who meet him recognise him as a very powerful one who is not yet aware of his abilities. Whilst every greenseer is a warg it doesn't follow that every warg is a greenseer and as I suggested above Jon, who stands apart from the rest appears destined to be a wood dancer rather than a greenseer

We don't know what Borroq thought. We never see from his pov.

[Black Crow]

My bad, it was Varamyr but Borroq certainly greets him as "brother"

[Black Crow]

So what major event happened 200 yrs ago to stir everyone up?

I think the short answer is probably nothing. If there was then some fool would have been bound to have mentioned it, I think its just a common metaphor for a long time ago in your great great great grandfather's time

[King Tyrion XX]

Inspiring TWOW talk:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

[Black Crow]

Yeah, very positive :thumbsup:

[Black Crow]

And with that I think, time to call it a day on Heresy 160 and move on to Heresy 161

See you all over there

:commie: :commie: :commie: