The Three Heads of the Dragon

[Dragondude121]

I have seen a lot of discussion on the forums about this subject of late, and I just wanted to throw my two cents in on the matter.

I think that the general consensus is that Jon and Dany are two of the three heads. Dany's claim seems pretty obvious, and if you subscribe to the R+L=J theory (which I do), than Jon's claim seems pretty obvious too.

That leaves the third head, of which I have seen much debate. I'd like to put Jaime Lannister forth as the third and final head of the dragon.

I am of the belief that the theories positing Tyrion as a secret Targaryen are off base, and that actually, it is Jaime and Cersei who are the secret children of Aerys. It is showcased in the book series, as well as in the World of Ice and Fire book, that Aerys has affections for Joanna, Tywin's wife, and that on the night of their wedding, Aerys took "kingly liberties" with Joanna. Given that Jaime and Cersei are older than Tyrion, it makes sense that they would be the offspring from that encounter, rather than the younger Tyrion.

The twins do showcase a lot of the Targaryen traits, like their extreme beauty, their platinum blonde hair, their propensity for incest, Cersei's madness, and Jaime's growing nobility. Whereas with Tyrion, I believe that he is the actual one, true heir of Tywin Lannister, much to the chagrin of Tywin, and that his destiny involves claiming his birthright of Casterly Rock.

As for Jaime and Cersei, I see Jaime returning to King's Landing later in the series to confront his sister; a woman who will have been driven into a madness comparable to Aerys', especially after both Tommen and Myrcella die (as predicted by Maggy the Frog.) I think that Jaime will face off against his insane sister, most likely as she is attempting to do something terrible (like with Aerys attempting to burn down King's Landing.) I think Jaime will put a stop to this by strangling Cersei with his golden hand, fulfilling the valonqar prophecy, and paralleling Tyrion strangling Shae with a necklace of golden hands. This will also mean that Jaime will have killed both his father and his sister, a king and a queen (regent), making him a Kingslayer, Queenslayer, Kinslayer, but also making him a hero.

I think Jaime comes out of that situation ready to join Dany and Jon as the third head of the dragon.

Tell me what you guys think!

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Taking liberties with Joanna means he was a little too handsy when they were passing the Bride and Groom over the crowd to the bedding ceremony, not that Aerys banged her in front of all the witnesses.

The only time that Aerys would have the opportunity to get with Joanna (either by force or by consent) would be after Cersie and Jaime were born and Joanna was in the Capitol with Tywinn as hand.

[Grayce Hornwood]

My fiancee and I were just discussing this very matter yesterday, as it happens. You just beat me to posting it. :lol: This theory certainly has some intresting points, but hinges on the fact Aegon would have to be fake. If he's a real Targ, it's pretty much a given that the three heads will be Dany, Aegon, and Jon. But, if he does indeed turn out to be a fake or a Blackfyre pretender, then I think Jaime is a very viable option to be the third head. The dream set up would be Jon and Dany on the throne as King and Queen, and Jaime as the Hand (though not sure how that would work with him being a KG, but Dany or Jon could release him from his vows). Anyways, well done. :cheers:

[Dragondude121]

My fiancee and I were just discussing this very matter yesterday, as it happens. You just beat me to posting it. :lol: This theory certainly has some intresting points, but hinges on the fact Aegon would have to be fake. If he's a real Targ, it's pretty much a given that the three heads will be Dany, Aegon, and Jon. But, if he does indeed turn out to be a fake or a Blackfyre pretender, then I think Jaime is a very viable option to be the third head. The dream set up would be Jon and Dany on the throne as King and Queen, and Jaime as the Hand (though not sure how that would work with him being a KG, but Dany or Jon could release him from his vows). Anyways, well done. :cheers:

Hey, thanks! See for me, I see Dany as being comparable to Aegon the Conqueror, making Jon and Jaime her brothers who fight beside her, like Aegon had with his two sisters. I think fAegon is indeed a Blackfyre pretender, though I don't think he knows that. As for Hand, I can think of no better than Tyrion, who is soon to be by Dany's side, and who knows both Jon and Jaime. He could certainly facilitate a meeting, no matter how much he currently dislikes his brother. I think that will change after Jaime kills Cersei.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Hey, thanks! See for me, I see Dany as being comparable to Aegon the Conqueror, making Jon and Jaime her brothers who fight beside her, like Aegon had with his two sisters. I think fAegon is indeed a Blackfyre pretender, though I don't think he knows that. As for Hand, I can think of no better than Tyrion, who is soon to be by Dany's side, and who knows both Jon and Jaime. He could certainly facilitate a meeting, no matter how much he currently dislikes his brother. I think that will change after Jaime kills Cersei.

That would work perfectly, but I think Tyrion is going to want to be done with the Game once Dany is queen and Jon is king (cuz that's what has to happen, or else I will be sorely disappointed). I'm thinking he's going to go back to Casterly Rock and won't want anything to do with KL ever again. But I could be wrong...

[MakeThemBurn]

So Dany would just hand over her precious child to a man who slaughtered her father?

[ummester]

Although I do think Jamie and Cersie are probably Areys spawn, I don't think being a Targ has anything to do with being a dragon head. I think the prophecy dragon is metaphorical, something like the beast from revelations.

[Ser Greg of House House]

If the three heads are indeed three people, the third one is Tyrion.

Some years ago, people would laugh and say "crackpot". Now it's a strong theory. There's a reason for that...

[UnmaskedLurker]

Welcome to the boards. People who are familiar with other posts of mine know that I am a believer that Tyrion is a the biological son of Aerys (see A+J=T v. 3). I came to this conclusion, in part, because I thought that Tyrion is the only plausible candidate for the third head of the dragon (the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion -- in particular the deaths of their mothers in childbirth -- sold me on this theory). So I actually came to the conclusion that Tyrion is the third head before I concluded he is the son of Aerys.

As KVT points out, taking liberties does NOT mean Aerys had sex with Joanna that night. He almost certainly did not. And the timing would not work for Jaime either, as Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 -- Tywin and Joanna were married in 263 (when the bedding incident happened -- three-year gestation is even longer than an elephant). TWOIAF made it clear that Joanna was highly unlikely to have had any contact with Aerys 9 months prior to the birth of Cersei and Jaime. On the other hand, that side book makes it clear that Joanna had contact with Aerys in KL in the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. And it is Tyrion with the platinum (pale) blond hair -- Jaime and Cersei have golden blond hair (like other Lannisters). The three heads of the dragon are main characters (perhaps the main characters). Tyrion is set up to be a main character much more so than Jaime (think POV). And incest is not really an inherited trait.

By the way, making Tyrion the one true heir -- to the chagrin of Tywin -- is sort of pointless now that Tywin is dead. It would be a bit anti-climactic for that revelation to come out only after anyone who really cares is already dead.

If you care what others on the board think -- I also started a poll on this issue (see here), and as of my last count, Tyrion has 35 votes and Jaime only 3 (Aegon, Bran and Arya have more votes than Jaime). Maybe you are correct, and the rest of us have mis-analyzed the situation. But the evidence as I best understand it makes Tyrion as the only real viable candidate to be the third head.

[UnmaskedLurker]

[Double Post]

[ummester]

If the three heads are indeed three people, the third one is Tyrion.

Some years ago, people would laugh and say "crackpot". Now it's a strong theory. There's a reason for that...

Tyrion being a Targ still seems crackpot to me - because it undermines all of the character drama established re the Lannister family. Jamie/Cersie being Targs enhances the drama and re-enforces the character personalities described.

[ValrianSunni]

My fiancee and I were just discussing this very matter yesterday, as it happens. You just beat me to posting it. :lol: This theory certainly has some intresting points, but hinges on the fact Aegon would have to be fake. If he's a real Targ, it's pretty much a given that the three heads will be Dany, Aegon, and Jon. But, if he does indeed turn out to be a fake or a Blackfyre pretender, then I think Jaime is a very viable option to be the third head. The dream set up would be Jon and Dany on the throne as King and Queen, and Jaime as the Hand (though not sure how that would work with him being a KG, but Dany or Jon could release him from his vows). Anyways, well done. :cheers:

I like the OP but I don't agree. Even if Aegon is a true Targaryan he still might not be a head of the dragon. Aegon could die, like Quentyn, Robb and so many others, before he gets to fulfill that part of the prophecy.

Oh, and when the OP says that Jaime killed his father, you mean Aerys, right? I think the OP's reasons for thinking Cersei and Jaime might be Targs are compelling (he hair, the madness and the incest), but I'm still not buying it. I just don't want Cersei or Jamie to have any role in an "ending" that sets up a new normal. Unless Jaime creates the new normal by killing Cersei. I'm in the Cersei-must-die camp!

[Weirdo]

Tyrion being a Targ still seems crackpot to me - because it undermines all of the character drama established re the Lannister family. Jamie/Cersie being Targs enhances the drama and re-enforces the character personalities described.

I don't understand why it 'undermines all of the character drama' in one case, but enhances it in the other? If it's more dramatic for J and C to find out they are bastards, why not Tyrion?

In Tyrion's case, he has always had a problematic relationship with his family, to say the least. Finding out he's a bastard is of a piece with that dramatic setup. As for his current situation, he's permanently estranged from his family. Those bridges are burned. Cersei wanted him dead, and still does. He killed Tywin, and he told Jaime that he killed Joffrey. And now he's an outlaw in Westeros. Nothing about this dramatic setup is undermined by him finding out that he's a bastard, and the son of the mad king - half brother to Daenarys, to boot. This would set him firmly on a path to redefinition of himself, which has been interesting in every case - when Jaime did it with Brienne and in the Riverlands, when Jon did it beyond the wall and in the NW, and when Dany did it way back when Drogo died.

[ummester]

I don't understand why it 'undermines all of the character drama' in one case, but enhances it in the other? If it's more dramatic for J and C to find out they are bastards, why not Tyrion?

In Tyrion's case, he has always had a problematic relationship with his family, to say the least. Finding out he's a bastard is of a piece with that dramatic setup. As for his current situation, he's permanently estranged from his family. Those bridges are burned. Cersei wanted him dead, and still does. He killed Tywin, and he told Jaime that he killed Joffrey. And now he's an outlaw in Westeros. Nothing about this dramatic setup is undermined by him finding out that he's a bastard, and the son of the mad king - half brother to Daenarys, to boot. This would set him firmly on a path to redefinition of himself, which has been interesting in every case - when Jaime did it with Brienne and in the Riverlands, when Jon did it beyond the wall and in the NW, and when Dany did it way back when Drogo died.

Because the crux of Tyrion's character is his relationship with his father and the crux of Tywin's relationship with Tyrion is that he wanted to kill Tyrion but let him live because he was a Lannister. If Tywin had any inkling that Tyrion was not a product of his semen, he would have thrown Tyrion in the ocean. Changing that now will feel like a bad soap opera.

If Tywin suspected that Jamie (his golden haired boy) was a Targ and not a Lannister, it further explains why Tywin was so bitter about his decision to let Tyrion live and why he had to - Tyrion may have been the only true blood legacy that Tywin has (see how all of that adds dramatic weight to the relationship Tyrion has with his father?). It also explains why Tywin shows a mean streak towards women (because he has an unsettled grievance re his wife that deeply effects his sense of purpose via legacy).

Consider the flipside - Jamie is made from Tywin's semen and Tyrion is made from Areys'. If Tywin suspected this, he would have had no issues killing Tyrion. Even if by some bizzare twist Tywin let Areys' dwarf bastard exist as a Lannister, then Tywin wouldn't be so bitter - he'd been smiling on the other side of his face. His junk made a worthy son that slew the mad king who burdened him with a Targ dwarf - no tension, no drama, no reason for tywin to have issues.

People who want Tyrion to be a Targ are only thinking about what it means dramatically for Tyrion's character, not all of the characters that have surrounded and defined Tyrion. There are ways Tyrion can redeem himself other than being a Targ, or Tyrion can just not redeem himself - he can just be a character that descends entirely into darkness. Besides all of this, I don't think being a Targ is a good thing.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Because the crux of Tyrion's character is his relationship with his father and the crux of Tywin's relationship with Tyrion is that he wanted to kill Tyrion but let him live because he was a Lannister. If Tywin had any inkling that Tyrion was not a product of his semen, he would have thrown Tyrion in the ocean. Changing that now will feel like a bad soap opera.

If Tywin suspected that Jamie was a Targ and not a Lannister, it further explains why Tywin was so bitter towards Tyrion (for letting him live) and also explains why Tywin shows a mean streak towards women (because he has an unsettled grievance re his wife that deeply effects his sense of purpose via legacy).

People who want Tyrion to be a Targ are only thinking about what it means dramatically for Tyrion's character, not all of the characters that have surrounded and defined Tyrion.

I don't want Tyrion to be a Targ. I just he think he is (a Targ bastard). Evidence has been piling up for some time now. I can't believe it's all a coincidence that Martin has been placing Tyrion closer and closer to dragons and that it's now obvious that it was very possible for Aerys to impregnate Joanna. There has to be something to it, and I don't think it's all a red herring. Anyway, there are other options.

I suspect it's possible that he will ride a dragon. He will be the third head (though we don't know if there will be a definitive confirmation about that, it could play out like the red comet).

But... We will never get confirmation that he's a Targ. Martin will leave the readers to discuss that forever and ever.

Another option is that Tyrion is not really a Targ, but he will believe he is, or at least he will play that card to convince Dany.

Something like... Tyrion rides a dragon. Dany believes he must have Targ blood. Selmy reveals that Aerys and Joanna had an affair. Tyrion might start to believe that himself. He would certainly like to be a Targ. In his bitter end, though, Tyrion finds out that he was actually a Lannister all along. (I'm not sure how, but it would be kind of cool)

[ummester]

There is a difference between a logical plot surprise, like the Red Wedding, or Theon attacking Winterfell, than a twist that is hypercritical to prior plot elements Ser Greg of House House. I feel that Tyrion being a Targ is the later, a plot development that would contradict the established characters and story. I can't think of any other examples in ASoIaF where GRRM has contradicted the story, yet. He may do so - and then his saga will have jumped the Stark for me - but as yet it hasn't happened that I am aware of.

[Ser Greg of House House]

There is a difference between a logical plot surprise, like the Red Wedding, or Theon attacking Winterfell, than a twist that is hypercritical to prior plot elements Ser Greg of House House. I feel that Tyrion being a Targ is the later, a plot development that would contradict the established characters and story. I can't think of any other examples in ASoIaF where GRRM has contradicted the story, yet. He may do so - and then his saga will have jumped the Stark for me - but as yet it hasn't happened that I am aware of.

What about UnCat?

[Weirdo]

There is a difference between a logical plot surprise, like the Red Wedding, or Theon attacking Winterfell, than a twist that is hypercritical to prior plot elements Ser Greg of House House. I feel that Tyrion being a Targ is the later, a plot development that would contradict the established characters and story. I can't think of any other examples in ASoIaF where GRRM has contradicted the story, yet. He may do so - and then his saga will have jumped the Stark for me - but as yet it hasn't happened that I am aware of.

It's really hard for me to see this as a contradiction. T and T have despised each other their entire lives. Seems like pretty smooth sailing, thematically, for Tyrion to discover that there are reasons why that's always been the case.

[ummester]

What about UnCat?

How so? I don't necessarily like the idea of UnCat, don't understand why Cat had to come back as some kind of vengeful zombie - but it is a logical development within the rules of the story established with Beric.

In the same vien as UnCat, have you considered that whole Quentin subplot may only exist to establish what will, or potentially will, happen to Tyrion if he tries to tame a dragon without Targ blood?

[ummester]

It's really hard for me to see this as a contradiction. T and T have despised each other their entire lives. Seems like pretty smooth sailing, thematically, for Tyrion to discover that there are reasons why that's always been the case.

I agree that Tyrion being a Targ bastard from Joanna's womb is a further reason for Tywin to hate him, however, it negates the single reason offered for Tywin letting Tyrion live. For Tyrion to be a Targ:

1) Tywin would have had to have been lying about it being his choice that Tyrion was allowed to live and that he allowed Tyrion to live because he was a Lannister.

2) There must be some undisclosed history where Areys convinced Tywin to let Tyrion live.

3) It still doesn't explain why Tywin didn't dispose of Tyrion after Jamie disposed of Areys.

What is consistent is that the mother's of Jon, Dany and Tyrion seemed to have died at childbirth, which completes certain mythical character tropes. Jon and Dany are not of the same father, why is it important that Tyrion and Dany are?