The Three Heads of the Dragon

[LmL]

I personally buy Tyrion Targaryen theory, and think it's far more confirmed by TWOIAF than the Jamie / Cersei Targaryen theory, but, we don't know for sure that you have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon - I'm thinking of Nettles from TPATQ who may or may not have Targ blood, but did appear to tame a dragon by feeding it sheep every day for several weeks - exactly the way you tame wild animals in real life. And besides, even if Jaime isn't a head of the dragon, he may be so one special, since he randomly dreams about wielding Lightbringer while dreaming on a weirwood stump:

“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps...

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound... but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”

The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. in this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

[Bandit Territory]

I can assure you that I am only following the clues and trying to be correct in my prediction. There is almost no evidence in support of AJ=CJ. Perhaps Cersei being a bit crazy -- but she seems nuts in a very different way that Aerys. But other than that factor, I see no other real evidence. The evidence for AJT is voluminous (see my OP here). I have no personal preference at stake at all (other than hoping my prediction is correct). I just want a good story.

And by the way, the idea that GRRM would put in a "red herring" aimed primarily at the people on this board is a little paranoid. GRRM has better things to do than to "punk" a few hardcore fans that frequent this website.

I can assure you, If I was an author of a series this big, I would get a really big kick out of messing with people's heads. I wouldn't call it "punking" hardcore fans so much, as to purposefully try to lead us off the correct path, while leaving the door open for Jaime and Cersei being Aerys'.

As for evidence of the twins being Aerys'.

So, evidence that hints at the twins being Targaryen’s. This is just stuff I remembered off the top of my head and went and snatched from the books, so I’m probably forgetting some stuff.

The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.

His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted.

Jaime ignored that. “If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.” “Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.” “Now you sound like Aerys.” (This one is actually a lot less than subtle really, might as well say here stands Aerys’ daughter.)

“No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

“We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”

“I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.”

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don’t leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she’d left them long ago.

Ser Barristan to Daenerys - King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

I would say that Jaime telling Cersei that she sounds like Aerys, is indicative that she's going crazy in the same vein as he was. I'm sure there is other stuff I'm not remembering too.

Edit to add: GRRM has said he's left extremely subtle and obscure clues in the books. I think this might be one of them. Orys Baratheon (rumored bastard Targaryen) had his sword hand chopped off. So has Jaime. I do think this could be a very interesting parallel if you believe Jaime is a bastard Tragaryen.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I personally buy Tyrion Targaryen theory, and think it's far more confirmed by TWOIAF than the Jamie / Cersei Targaryen theory, but, we don't know for sure that you have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon - I'm thinking of Nettles from TPATQ who may or may not have Targ blood, but did appear to tame a dragon by feeding it sheep every day for several weeks - exactly the way you tame wild animals in real life.

You're correct we don't know for sure whether you need the Targaryen blood. Everyone in the universe of asoiaf seems to assume you do need it but obviously people of dubious parentage rode dragons. However it's also true that the belief was so strong that most people seem to take dragonriding as proof of Targ blood. I am hoping that Tyrion knows more about it from his various books he's been reading and will let the reader know in due course.

And besides, even if Jaime isn't a head of the dragon, he may be so one special, since he randomly dreams about wielding Lightbringer while dreaming on a weirwood stump:

If Jaime has lightbringer in that scene, why is Brienne's sword aflame as well? Will they both wield LB, do you think?Also, hers stays aflame whereas Jaime's goes out... I always interpreted this as a "message" dream, the sword is metaphorical not literally lightbringer.

Personally I think Jaime's greatest importance will be in confrontations with Cersei, Tyrion, and Daenerys.

[LmL]

You're correct we don't know for sure whether you need the Targaryen blood. Everyone in the universe of asoiaf seems to assume you do need it but obviously people of dubious parentage rode dragons. However it's also true that the belief was so strong that most people seem to take dragonriding as proof of Targ blood. I am hoping that Tyrion knows more about it from his various books he's been reading and will let the reader know in due course.

If Jaime has lightbringer in that scene, why is Brienne's sword aflame as well? Will they both wield LB, do you think?Also, hers stays aflame whereas Jaime's goes out... I always interpreted this as a "message" dream, the sword is metaphorical not literally lightbringer.

Personally I think Jaime's greatest importance will be in confrontations with Cersei, Tyrion, and Daenerys.

I'm not really sure what it means, except that it's fairly significant, and comes out of nowhere. Jaime doesn't think about flaming swords - why would he dream that? If the dream came from the weirwood stump, then perhaps there was an intention behind it. The result of the dream was that he went back to save Brienne, so perhaps Brienne is the important one.

[Amris]

Jaime and Cersei are the bastard Targaryen's (and Jaime is a dragonrider). In fact, as far as I'm concerned the word seldom confirms it for me. Why else bother using the word seldom? It's a red herring for those of us that browse the forums, when we see the word seldom we're supposed to go "Oh, guess that rules out A+J=C&J". The when we start looking at Tyrion. Only Tyrion is not a Targ, he is a small white lion running through grass taller than a man. When it turns out that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys', those of us on the forums will be surprised because a vast majority assumed it was Tyrion, and a majority who don't browse the forums will be surprised because they didn't see any of the Lannister siblings actually being Targaryen's at all.

I will point this out. My mother who's never browsed the forums fully believes that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys', and that Tyrion is definitely Tywin’s. She's scary good at this stuff, and hardly if ever wrong (I can’t think of a time when she was). She thought about Tyrion possibly being a dragon rider, but was adamant that Tyrion was Tywin's, which rules him out.

Jon not being Ned’s doesn’t ruin his relationship with Catelyn for two simple reasons. One, Catelyn was not his mother. Two, Catelyn never suspected that Jon wasn’t Ned’s. Tywin did. That’s the difference, and why Jon’s arc isn’t ruined and Tyrion’s would be.

Funnily enough, I was thinking the same for you in reverse. As far as I'm concerned the evidence points to Jaime and Cersei being Targs, not Tyrion. Just goes to show how you can have two witnesses at a crime scene, and they'll both tell you something completely different.

Fully agree.

We still may be wrong of course, I cheerfully admit that. All anyone can do at this point is observe the puzzle pieces and try to predict how they'll fall and how they might fit. It's a guessing game at best. But a lot fits.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not at all. Tyrion was raised solely by Tywin from the moment he was born. Regardless of whose sperm he's made from, Tyrion is Tywin's son, through and through, and a Lannister to boot. Tywin is 100% wrong (and Genna 100% correct) in any case: Tyrion is Tywin's true son in every meaningful sense.

In addition to being a Lannister and Tywin's true son, he also happens to have half Targaryen blood, which he will find is handy for dragonriding but little else. I'm still not convinced he'll know the truth, even if the readers do (or maybe both Tyrion and us will have more hints but no proof).

Completely agree.

[The Bastard of Walton]

For me what fits the Three Heads of the Dragon prophecy best at this minute are the three characters that (Most Likely if R+L=J is true) have Dragon Blood. Dany, Aegon & Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

For me what fits the Three Heads of the Dragon prophecy best at this minute are the three characters that (Most Likely if R+L=J is true) have Dragon Blood. Dany, Aegon & Jon.

Well, I agree that the three heads of the dragon should be expected to have dragon blood. We know that there are quite a few people with some dragon blood. Stannis, BBP, the Martels. I am not sure why you suggest Aegon is the only other character with dragon blood -- he is not.

So while I agree that dragon blood is required, it is not sufficient. The three heads of the dragon will have more connection that merely that requirement. If Aegon were really the son of Rhaegar, then maybe he would have the necessary connection, but Aegon seems most likely to be fAegon. The character who has the most similarities to Jon and Dany is not fAegon, bur rather Tyrion (see, for example, this thread). Once the connection among these three characters becomes clear, the conclusion that Tryion is the third head of the dragon and thus must be a Targ bastard also becomes clear.

[LmL]

^ I tend to agree with this, that Jon and Dany and Tyrion have similar personalty traits, but I don't think Jon will ride one of Dany's dragons. Vic is going to steal one, I belive, so the three riders of Dany's dragons will be Dany, Tyrion, and Victarion, while Jon will ride the Ice Dragon that is coming.

[The Bastard of Walton]

UnmaskedLurker, forgive my mistake. I realise a lot of people have Dragon blood, in terms of historic family lines. My thinking with Aegon is that he legit, but even if he is a Blackfyre, a Blackfyre to me is more of a Dragon, than say a Baratheon in terms of a legitimized line. I'm open to the possibility of the Tyrion link though.

[UnmaskedLurker]

UnmaskedLurker, forgive my mistake. I realise a lot of people have Dragon blood, in terms of historic family lines. My thinking with Aegon is that he legit, but even if he is a Blackfyre, a Blackfyre to me is more of a Dragon, than say a Baratheon in terms of a legitimized line. I'm open to the possibility of the Tyrion link though.

No need for forgiveness -- we are all just putting out theories. Personally, I think Aegon is the mummer's dragon that Dany needs to defeat. As such, in my view, he cannot be one of the heads of the dragon. I just don't see how Aegon (fAegon) and Dany join as a team. Not to mention that YG was introduced in Book 5 -- and a character who will be one of the saviors of the world is going to be a main character and not a character that gets introduced in book 5.

So I am left with only Tyrion as the logical third head of the dragon. If the books contained no clues that Tyrion might be have dragon blood and be the son of Aerys, then I would keep looking for a third head among the main characters. I still would find Aegon to be an unlikely choice as the third head. But given all those clues, and given the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion (most important and obvious, the death of their mothers giving birth to them), Tyrion seems to be far and away the most logical choice as the third head.

[LmL]

Dont forget that it may be possible to tame a dragon with common tactics - feeding it sheep every day - or also with a dragon binder horn, such as Euron gave Victarion. We don't know if it will work, but it may. So one head of the dragon may not have Targ blood. Of the three heads may not equal the riders of Dany's dragons. Or perhaps Vic steals one for a time and later it's ridden by a true Targ.

Any way you slice it, I think Jonny boy is gonna ride an Ice Dragon.

[pigpiginsunspear]

First time poster!

Given what we know, isn't there more evidence to support Gendry or Stannis being the third head (Targ blood)? I'm sure this was discussed somewhere, does anyone have a link?

Also, why does being fAegon (as opposed to Aegon) disqualify him from being the third head? He could be a Blackfyre, with Targ blood, and still a contender...

[LmL]

Welcome to the boards, and yes, you're absolutely right that being a Blackfyre should count as dragonblood.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

First time poster!

Given what we know, isn't there more evidence to support Gendry or Stannis being the third head (Targ blood)? I'm sure this was discussed somewhere, does anyone have a link?

Also, why does being fAegon (as opposed to Aegon) disqualify him from being the third head? He could be a Blackfyre, with Targ blood, and still a contender...

I think there is huge difference between the list of people who could possibly ride a dragon and the list of who could be the Three Heads of the Dragon.

I mean do you really think that GRRM created all of this to end up with a team made up of Daenerys, Jon and Gendry? or Stannis?

[pigpiginsunspear]

I mean do you really think that GRRM created all of this to end up with a team made up of Daenerys, Jon and Gendry? or Stannis?

I don't see a real problem with either of them, but I get your point. Gendry may be around for something more than just keeping the Baratheon line intact (or not, just a thought).

I just have trouble with the Jaime, Cersei, or Tyrion theory- seems far fetched. Tyrion is more believable than Jaime/Cersei, but still, no real support.

All in all, I think it's fair to say that there isn't much evidence to support any candidate for the Third Head of the Dragon.

[LmL]

I don't see a real problem with either of them, but I get your point. Gendry may be around for something more than just keeping the Baratheon line intact (or not, just a thought).

I just have trouble with the Jaime, Cersei, or Tyrion theory- seems far fetched. Tyrion is more believable than Jaime/Cersei, but still, no real support.

All in all, I think it's fair to say that there isn't much evidence to support any candidate for the Third Head of the Dragon.

There is a ton of evidence for Tyrion Targaryen, starting with his repeated dragon dreams that he references in book one. We don't want to derail this thread but do a search for A + J = T and you'll find the latest compelling of evidence for this.

[Jaheira]

I agree with Lucifer means Lightbringer that Jon wont be a dragon rider. I dont understand why almost everyone thinks that anyways.

By only taking a look on the title of the novels 'A song of ice and fire' it gets clear that Jon has a very special role, if not the most important role- namely that hell be the one finally uniting or solving the conflict between ICE and FIRE.

Cleary Dany belongs to fire, as probably does Tyrion- why else should be get nearer and nearer to her? And also if you recall the last published Tyrion chapter of TWOW, you can read something like "the white cyvasse dragon fell in front of his feet" ..

[Stringer Bill]

Three heads are....

Fire: Dany

Ice: Bran

Ice and Fire: Jon

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is a ton of evidence for Tyrion Targaryen, starting with his repeated dragon dreams that he references in book one. We don't want to derail this thread but do a search for A + J = T and you'll find the latest compelling of evidence for this.

Yes, I have maintained a thread dedicated to the topic of A+J=T (currently, A+J=T v. 3). There is quite a bit of evidence to support Tyrion Hill, bastard son of Aerys II Targaryen.

As to realistic candidates for head of the dragon -- I believe all three need to be main characters. By that standard, I agree that Stannis and Gendry are out -- and fAegon is really out. Yes, he might ride a dragon based on his Blackfyre (and maybe Brightflame) blood. But even if he rides a dragon, he almost certainly will die before the endgame and will not be a head of the dragon. YG has been just too minor a character to be one of the main heroes in the war.

As to taming a dragon without dragon blood -- I highly doubt it. Nettles needed to "tame" Sheepsteeler first, not because non-dragon blooded person can bond with a dragon, but because that dragon was unusually wild. Most dragons at that time were raised by the Targs and their servants. Sheepsteeler was a completely wild dragon. Nettles needed to get that dragon to be willing to let her get close without killing her to enable bonding to be possible. But the idea that Nettles did not need dragonblood to bond with a dragon seems highly unlikely given everything else we have been told about the history of the Valaryans and how they originally bonded with dragons (and by the way, all the non-Targ dragon riding houses have been wiped out, so Targs are the only ones left with the ability to bond with a dragon). Almost certainly blood magic was involved (Doom probably part of the price paid) -- and that suggests an inherited trait in this circumstance. And if the horn could bond a dragon, there would be some indication of history of that happening. I am not sure what that horn will do, but the idea that it will allow someone with no Targ blood to bond with a dragon seems almost certainly wrong.