If Sam had tried?

[LogicalLeopard]

Randal is an overbearing freak, Sam's issues likely were amplified immensely by Randys moronic parenting

You know, this thread gives me a bit more understanding when it comes to Randyll. I'm not saying he's not a bad dad, because threatening to kill your own kid is a parenting no-no. Put yourself in his position. You're the Lord of an old house. You get a son right off the bat, and start training him to be the next lord of Horn Hill. It's an awesome responsibility, and he will have an obligation to protect both the Smalltalk in his domain and the Reach itself.

It's one thing if your son grows up to be the exact opposite of you. That's hard enough. Its another if your son doesn't seem to have any useful skills. But it's quite another when being like you, or at least HALF like you, is a requirement for the ONE job your son MUST do. Sam couldn't be anything else but the heir, until his brother came along. He couldn't adbicate it, because it'd pass to a daughter and probably be lost through marriage. That is an extremely bad position for Randyll to be in. So I see why he pushed Sam so hard. Plus, Randyll probably hadn't ever seen any cowardice approaching Sam's. I doubt anyone has. So he probably thought he could man up. Not the case.

[LogicalLeopard]

Randyll seems like one of those fathers who push their kids to be a sports star and scream at them if they say they aren't interested.

And the key difference is that your kid doesn't have to play sports. Sam HAS to be the lord of Horn Hill. There were no other options. That is, until his brother was born. So it's more like yelling at your kid that can't hold a job for more than two days. He has to support himself.

[eyenon15]

You know, this thread gives me a bit more understanding when it comes to Randyll. I'm not saying he's not a bad dad, because threatening to kill your own kid is a parenting no-no. Put yourself in his position. You're the Lord of an old house. You get a son right off the bat, and start training him to be the next lord of Horn Hill. It's an awesome responsibility, and he will have an obligation to protect both the Smalltalk in his domain and the Reach itself.

It's one thing if your son grows up to be the exact opposite of you. That's hard enough. Its another if your son doesn't seem to have any useful skills. But it's quite another when being like you, or at least HALF like you, is a requirement for the ONE job your son MUST do. Sam couldn't be anything else but the heir, until his brother came along. He couldn't adbicate it, because it'd pass to a daughter and probably be lost through marriage. That is an extremely bad position for Randyll to be in. So I see why he pushed Sam so hard. Plus, Randyll probably hadn't ever seen any cowardice approaching Sam's. I doubt anyone has. So he probably thought he could man up. Not the case.

I would just tell him I love you son but you can't be the Lord here. We have to find something else for you to do.(not the Wall)

If Sam decided to fight for his birthright hat would show me he isn't a coward.

Randal is BY FAR the biggest coward between he and Sam.

[LogicalLeopard]

I would just tell him I love you son but you can't be the Lord here. We have to find something else for you to do.

If Sam decided to fight for his birthright hat would show me he isn't a coward.

Randal is BY FAR the biggest coward between he and Sam.

Not that simple. Sam WILL be the Lord, unless he dies, takes the black, or forges a chain. And really, those are the only three realistic options in life, for a first born lordling. He can't be a librarian or a dentist.

And remember, before Rickon was born, if Sam did anything else, Horn Hill would be lost and the Tarly family would cease to exist, if there weren't any male cousins.

[The silver dragon]

I would just tell him I love you son but you can't be the Lord here. We have to find something else for you to do.

If Sam decided to fight for his birthright hat would show me he isn't a coward.

Randal is BY FAR the biggest coward between he and Sam.

it's not sam fighting he has to worry about, it's the fact that he may birth skilled decedents who have a strong claim to horn hill.

who will promptly start shit due to said good claim.

[eyenon15]

Not that simple. Sam WILL be the Lord, unless he dies, takes the black, or forges a chain. And really, those are the only three realistic options in life, for a first born lordling. He can't be a librarian or a dentist.

And remember, before Rickon was born, if Sam did anything else, Horn Hill would be lost and the Tarly family would cease to exist, if there weren't any male cousins.

It's certainly not as simple as - you will be Lord unless you go to the Wall

[LogicalLeopard]

It's certainly not as simple as - you will be Lord unless you go to the Wall

Or a maester. Its that simple, whether Randyll Tarly likes it or not. Whether Sam likes it or not. As soon as Randyll dies, whether it be in the next war, or of old age, or he slips on a banana peel and hits his head, Sam WILL be Lord. And that is even WITH Rickon. So Randyll's only options are to send him to the Wall or the Citadel where he will swear to give up his worldly claims.

[eyenon15]

Maybe the only two options that an idiot such as Tarly could come up with.

[LordStoneheart]

Or a maester. Its that simple, whether Randyll Tarly likes it or not. Whether Sam likes it or not. As soon as Randyll dies, whether it be in the next war, or of old age, or he slips on a banana peel and hits his head, Sam WILL be Lord. And that is even WITH Rickon. So Randyll's only options are to send him to the Wall or the Citadel where he will swear to give up his worldly claims.

Wrong. Even the author says you're wrong.

Maybe the only two options that an idiot such as Tarly could come up with.

That's probably the case.

[eyenon15]

Actually Tarly didn't even come up with the Citadel as far as we know, that's fan made.

[LogicalLeopard]

Wrong. Even the author says you're wrong.

How and where am I wrong?

[LordStoneheart]

How and where am I wrong?

According to the wiki and GRRM himself:

Inheritance laws in the Seven Kingdoms are not clear cut. According to George R. R. Martin,

“ The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.^%5B7%5D ”

It is not for sure that when Randyll dies, Sam will inherit as you said.

[TimJames]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

[LogicalLeopard]

Actually Tarly didn't even come up with the Citadel as far as we know, that's fan made.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying the Citadel is fan made, or Tarly suggesting the Citadel is fan made. The Citadel is GRRM made, its the maester's headquarters. And Randyll Tarly never wanted his son to be a maester, so that was not a real option for am, although it was the best option that suited him.

[TyshaLives]

But Sam really almost acted like some Westerosi Winnie the pooh, always trying to eat snacks and just laze around and play beautiful music. Nothing against any of the above, just saying.

This is the best sentence I've ever read. :lmao

But on topic, some people can't do some things, even if they work hard at them.

[LogicalLeopard]

According to the wiki and GRRM himself:

It is not for sure that when Randyll dies, Sam will inherit as you said.

Well, of course things aren't for sure, because the world is crazy. But for all intents and purposes, just about everyone in Westeros will consider Sam to be the lawful heir. Certainly if he's the only male. Even with Dickon. I mean, for every Renly who jumps line, and undecided Tyrion, there are many examples of men who instantly became lords upon their father's death The only thing that would prevent that is if maybe Randyll named Dickon heir and had the swords and/or influence to back it up. But if that was really plausible, why send Sam away at all? Unless, like another poster pointed out, Randyll was worried about Sam's descendants pressing a claim.

[LogicalLeopard]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

House Tarly sits on the Dornish marches. They kind of are expected to fight. But really, all lords bannermen are. But the Tarlys more than others.

And Wyman is only alive because he was too fat to sit on a horse. That's the only thing that got him out of it. His two fat sons still went. Despite the poor, overburdened horses..

[LordStoneheart]

Well, of course things aren't for sure, because the world is crazy. But for all intents and purposes, just about everyone in Westeros will consider Sam to be the lawful heir. Certainly if he's the only male. Even with Dickon. I mean, for every Renly who jumps line, and undecided Tyrion, there are many examples of men who instantly became lords upon their father's death The only thing that would prevent that is if maybe Randyll named Dickon heir and had the swords and/or influence to back it up. But if that was really plausible, why send Sam away at all? Unless, like another poster pointed out, Randyll was worried about Sam's descendants pressing a claim.

It's completely plausible. Randyll just didn't like Samwell.

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

Isn't Wyman Manderly a knight?

Any how, it was not just about fighting skills, Sam didn't care about any of his responsabilities as future Lord of HornHill.

[LogicalLeopard]

It's completely plausible. Randyll just didn't like Samwell.

Well, of course he didn't like him. He's his exact opposite, and vastly different than the majority of people he knows. But I thunk a major motivation was that he didn't want Sam to inherit Horn Hill no matter what, and wanted Dickon to have a completely uncontested claim. His major screw up (well, in addition to parenting that probably gave Sam PTSD) was letting his pride get in the way and not letting Sam be a maester like he wanted to. That is really what San seems to be called to do. But, it all worked out, and it looks like he's doing that now.