If Sam had tried?

[LordStoneheart]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

Good fucking point. A good warrior is not necessarily a good lord.

Isn't Wyman Manderly a knight?

Any how, it was not just about fighting skills, Sam didn't care about any of his responsabilities as future Lord of HornHill.

I wasn't aware that Samwell was being taught Lordly things, only being beaten and soaked in blood.

[The silver dragon]

Good fucking point. A good warrior is not necessarily a good lord.

I wasn't aware that Samwell was being taught Lordly things, only being beaten and soaked in blood.

1.) a good warrior is a respected lord. respected lords get the most troops from their sworn knights.

and thus become more valuable during warfare.

2.) well that's obvious, you weren't there for sam's child-hood and while it may have been a shity one, it's not like most medieval child-hoods are any better.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Good fucking point. A good warrior is not necessarily a good lord.

While I agree (look at Willas, and to a certain point, Tyrion), looks like Sam was not only a bad warrior but he let others to push him around. Maybe if he had told Randyll to go and fuck himself, he would have caused him a better impression. :dunno:

[LogicalLeopard]

I would like to make an important distinction, given the interjection of the Manderlys. Sam's problem is not that he's fat. Wyman Manderlys fought at the Trident and his son's fought with Rob, all of them being described as fat. His problem is not that he is not a good fighter. Although lordlings seem to practice the martial arts very regularly as children, I'm sure some are not as good as others. Sam's problem isn't that he doesn't like to fight. I'm sure many don't. His problem is that he is a coward. He probably couldn't show up on the field without running when the horses and men started to die. Not retreating. Running. And you can't do that as a lord. He probably has all the other stuff down pat, but leading in battle is pretty important. Unless you're too old, too young, too sick, or physically unable to go (like Manderly), it looks to me like you go if you're a lord.

[LordStoneheart]

1.) a good warrior is a respected lord. respected lords get the most troops from their sworn knights.

and thus become more valuable during warfare.

2.) well that's obvious, you weren't there for sam's child-hood and while it may have been a shity one, it's not like most medieval child-hoods are any better.

1. A good lord is a respected lord. Fighting is not the only component involved. Daeron II still had plenty of supporters despite Daemon being touted as a better warrior.

2. I can name at least nine children who had a great childhood in peacetime and were not beaten, forced to sleep in chain mail, or soaked in blood until sick. But since you like to pull out the "other things are just as bad" card, I hope that means you've never complained about your childhood or really anything in your life. :rolleyes:

[LogicalLeopard]

1.) a good warrior is a respected lord. respected lords get the most troops from their sworn knights.

and thus become more valuable during warfare

This. If Sam's smallfolk see him during wartime, they will no longer respect him. That makes his job harder. And his fellow lords wouldn't respect him. If he is afraid of Mormont, would he be afraid of talking to Mace Tyrell? Who would respect him? Who would use his cowardice against him?

[Bobby b's bobby]

Could Sam even have been a master before his time at the wall didn't he damn near faint at the sight of blood and a masters main thing is usually healing.

[The silver dragon]

1. A good lord is a respected lord. Fighting is not the only component involved. Daeron II still had plenty of supporters despite Daemon being touted as a better warrior.

2. I can name at least nine children who had a great childhood in peacetime and were not beaten, forced to sleep in chain mail, or soaked in blood until sick. But since you like to pull out the "other things are just as bad" card, I hope that means you've never complained about your childhood or really anything in your life. :rolleyes:

1.) daeron was older and no was buying that whole son of the dragon knight b.s.

1 a.) so did aerys of all people, indeed it takes an absolute a hole of the major third degree for a majority of the lords to try and appose the king.

(usurpation was consider frowned upon by society and the gods.= a big no no)

the fact that half the realm did rise for daemon just proves my point. i can assure none of those great knights would have joined daemon had he been a worse fighter.

2.) sam is not most children. sam's lazy fat and coward. if he was born to a farmer said, he get the lash, hard and repeatedly for such behavior.

is it child abuse? sure by are standers. back then it was par for the course if your child was tough.

[LordStoneheart]

2.) sam is not most children. sam's lazy fat and coward. if he was born to a farmer said, he get the lash, hard and repeatedly for such behavior.

is it child abuse? sure by are standers. back then it was par for the course if your child was tough.

It's not just child abuse. It was straight up torture, which is the fucking reason Sam was a coward in the first place. Even if we entertain the notion that Samwell is somehow predisposed to being a coward, Randyll's torturous actions most definitely accelerated the process and left Samwell with a terrible mental state.

As I've said before, would you mock TheonReek as being a coward? No, because his fear came from being tortured. Same with Samwell. Do you really think it was a common medieval child rearing practice to make a child sleep in chain mail or soak him in blood?

[King Crow]

Could Sam even have been a master before his time at the wall didn't he damn near faint at the sight of blood and a masters main thing is usually healing.

I have always been perplexed that more people aren't skeptical of Sam's ability to become a maester. You have to cut open cadavers to earn a silver link. Does anyone believe pre-nightwatch Sam to be able to do that?

[The silver dragon]

It's not just child abuse. It was straight up torture, which is the fucking reason Sam was a coward in the first place. Even if we entertain the notion that Samwell is somehow predisposed to being a coward, Randyll's torturous actions most definitely accelerated the process and left Samwell with a terrible mental state.

As I've said before, would you mock TheonReek as being a coward? No, because his fear came from being tortured. Same with Samwell. Do you really think it was a common medieval child rearing practice to make a child sleep in chain mail or soak him in blood?

no it's not.

torture is when you submit someone to pain to gain/manipulate them or for sadism.

randlly tarly was in his way trying to (and failing) to help sam become an heir worthy of a house whose words are "first into battle".

randlly tarly is also as far as i can tell, not sadistic.

Randlly was quite creative and mild, the old fashioned way would be a lot a beating, which involves your blood, and starvation.

one of the reasons child mortality rates were so high. it's called "the dark ages "for reason.

[Humble Maester]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

That is wrong. Wyman is a knight and was known to be a decent jouster when he was younger. They are nothing alike, one is a brave schemer who used to be a decent fighter, the other is... craven fatso from the birth.

I even dig up the quote for you:

As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done.

[Davos chapter, the one where Wyman unloads on him]

So yeah, Randyll knew what kind of a lord he himself was and wanted a son who'd be similar. I don't think Sam could had much helped who he was, he could had been an alright lord if the times were peaceful and a weak lord was enough to keep the peace. On the other hand he could had been as bad as Tytos Lannister.

[LogicalLeopard]

I have always been perplexed that more people aren't skeptical of Sam's ability to become a maester. You have to cut open cadavers to earn a silver link. Does anyone believe pre-nightwatch Sam to be able to do that?

Good point. I only brought it up because Sam himself thought about being one and expressed that to Randyll as a child. The question is, is the silver link required? Can you forgo it and specialize elsewhere? You wouldn't be of much use to a lord's keep, but I'm sure you could work elsewhere. The next question is, did Sam have a good chance of working through it like at the Wall? It seems like the Citadel would be a supportive environment to conquer such a fear.

[LogicalLeopard]

1. A good lord is a respected lord. Fighting is not the only component involved. Daeron II still had plenty of supporters despite Daemon being touted as a better warrior.

The key difference with Daeron and Sam, and well, Sam and everybody, is thatDaeron could take up a sword and wield it against an enemy. Maybe not as good as some, but they could do it. Maybe they didn't like it. But they could do it. Sam can't, he's a coward. Not in the normal sense of the word, but a complete coward.

[Mikkel]

Could Sam even have been a master before his time at the wall didn't he damn near faint at the sight of blood and a masters main thing is usually healing.

I have always been perplexed that more people aren't skeptical of Sam's ability to become a maester. You have to cut open cadavers to earn a silver link. Does anyone believe pre-nightwatch Sam to be able to do that?

Good point. I only brought it up because Sam himself thought about being one and expressed that to Randyll as a child. The question is, is the silver link required? Can you forgo it and specialize elsewhere? You wouldn't be of much use to a lord's keep, but I'm sure you could work elsewhere. The next question is, did Sam have a good chance of working through it like at the Wall? It seems like the Citadel would be a supportive environment to conquer such a fear.

That's what I always say whenever people tout the "make him a Maester, problem solved!" line.

Randyll was in a shitty situation with Sam for a heir, and of course Randyll being who he is, he dealt with the situation in a shitty way, too. As others have said, even if Sam would have been just fine with Dickon taking over (and he would), it would still open the door to all sorts of bad shit down the line, unless his abdication would be considered legally binding. Any son of Sam (heh!) with a desire to up his station would have had a decent case against Dickon or his descendants - it's not wise to open your House up to that sort of conflict if you can avoid it. Then there's the scenario where Dickon dies childless - and suddenly Sam is back in the picture, tacit understanding to "leave the weirdo to his books" or not.

Sam was being taught at least some Lordly duties, and IIRC he was even supposed to have been fostered (with one of the Redwynes perhaps?), but he flunked out of that, too.

Sam is a nice guy, he has booksmarts, and is not without political wiles (though the "let's make Jon the LC" intrigue seemed just a tad easy to me). But he really is a mess when we first meet him, and it's no surprise that a thoroughly martial and uncompromising lord like Randyll Tarly fails to make anything of him.

The fact of the matter is, Sam is just not Lord material, and I don't think anyone could have made one out of him.

[TimJames]

The key difference with Daeron and Sam, and well, Sam and everybody, is thatDaeron could take up a sword and wield it against an enemy. Maybe not as good as some, but they could do it. Maybe they didn't like it. But they could do it. Sam can't, he's a coward. Not in the normal sense of the word, but a complete coward.

So what?

Wyman Manderly is too fat to even ride a horse, and Doran Martell is so crippled he can't even walk. Neither of them would ever be able to "take up a sword and wield it against an enemy", yet they're both still alive.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Sam would have made a perfectly reasonable lord. You know, with administrative and judicial responsibilities, which is what lords do on a day to day basis. He can delegate the military side of things to others, or be put in charge of logistics, which is where wars are really won and lost.

[Trigger Warning]

Why does everyone assume that Samwell would have been a bad choice to inherit? Just because a Lord isn't a fighter doesn't mean he can't be of use. If anything, I'd say House Tarly is overdue for a clever schemer or a thrifty steward or a smart diplomat.

I'm sure that growing up Wyman Manderly was a lot like Samwell Tarly. Guess what? Wyman is still alive while all the more martial north lords got back stabbed.

Sam's smart but he wasn't any of that before the wall moulded him. He'd be weak and a pushover in all aspects of governance.

Wyman was nothing like Sam, they're both just fat. Sam's problem wasn't being fat.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I wonder if our resident hard men consider Bran Stark unable to be a lord. Considering that he's not only unable to fight, but he can't father children either.

[Humble Maester]

So what?

Wyman Manderly is too fat to even ride a horse, and Doran Martell is so crippled he can't even walk. Neither of them would ever be able to "take up a sword and wield it against an enemy", yet they're both still alive.

There still is difference between being craven and being anything else. Sure there are lords that are not physically capable (though Wyman indeed was a proper knight when younger at least), but if an invalid lord was also afraid of his own shadow, you'd end up with an ineffectual lord.

In my opinion the whole "gigantic coward"-thing is far worse than being fat.

I wonder if our resident hard men consider Bran Stark unable to be a lord. Considering that he's not only unable to fight, but he can't father children either.

Bran's lordship could be problematic in many ways, but at least he is not incapacitated by fear. Still, a lord that could walk and could father children would probably be better.