Is there a Frey who is not a complete dick?

[Lee-Sensei]

Just to clarify the hypothetical was for their initial visit when the watch was still intact.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think you're getting too hung up on the literal interpretation of being "under someone's roof" and eating the bread and salt. Eating bread and salt is just a tradition that affirms the concept of being someone's guest and what that entails. If you take your guest out on a hunting trip and put an arrow through the back of his head that doesn't mean you didn't kill a "guest under your roof."

Being considered someone's guest is not contingent on either being indoors or them providing you food. We know this because if that weren't the case, guest right would be the easy custom in the world to circumvent.

We just aren't going to agree on this. You can add the 3,000 if you want, but it is very debatable. Presumably in the scenario you're presenting the guest is living in their home and eating their food. What the Freys did to Robbs soldiers was treacherous, but it wasn't necessaril a breech of guest rights.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Did Hosteen actually do anything dick-ish other than side with his family against Manderly and Stannis?

He's a brute. That counts as dickish to me. Plus attacking Manderly is not smart at all.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Of course not. But my point is: every adult Frey was involved in it except these three, and all the children that have been mentioned so far are pricks.

There is absolutely nothing to show that "every" adult Frey was involved.

First you must define involved... does involved mean having knowledge of it but just being a spectator? Actually participation/ harming someone? Knowing, but absenting oneself from the Twins because you object? Objecting but keeping silent out of fear that you will be killed as well?

Secondly, there is no textual proof that every adult Frey knew (especially keeping in mind that one was considered an adult in the mid-teens). Unfortunately it's been some time since my last reread but I seem to recall actual text that stated there were many Freys who had either no clue or only minor/varying degrees of knowledge.

Thirdly, "every" adult would include the women, almost none of whom had any reason to be informed what was going to happen. Simply ordering all females present at the RW to leave the hall the moment the bedding ritual began, return to their chambers and stay there, would have removed them without necessitating their knowledge. This is a patriarchal family whose primary patriarch has a fairly iron grip on his womenfolk (and evidently a great deal of the men).

Lastly, it would be sheer stupidity for Walder to have called together his entire family, from his eldest sons down to the girl who just became a woman the previous month, and inform them of his plot. If there is one adjective that applies least to the Late Lord Frey, it's trusting. How many of those adults had suffered cruelty and humiliation at his whim and would welcome the opportunity for revenge? How many might anticipate a great reward from Robb for foiling the RW? How many might do it simply because they felt it was the honorable thing to do?

If the answer to any of these is even "one," then it would be insanity for Walder to have shared a single word more than absolutely necessary with any individual actively involved, and those he would have chosen with care.

Keep in mind that it wasn't just revenge motivating the RW (although that likely would have been enough). In fact, the details of the plan probably didn't even originate with Walder himself. This was also Frey's way of coming out on the "winning" side - the Lannisters' - and to have it bungled because the wrong word was leaked to the wrong person could have seen the Freys wiped out, crushed between angry Lannisters and betrayed Starks.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

There is absolutely nothing to show that "every" adult Frey was involved.

First you must define involved... does involved mean having knowledge of it but just being a spectator? Actually participation/ harming someone? Knowing, but absenting oneself from the Twins because you object? Objecting but keeping silent out of fear that you will be killed as well?

Secondly, there is no textual proof that every adult Frey knew (especially keeping in mind that one was considered an adult in the mid-teens). Unfortunately it's been some time since my last reread but I seem to recall actual text that stated there were many Freys who had either no clue or only minor/varying degrees of knowledge.

Thirdly, "every" adult would include the women, almost none of whom had any reason to be informed what was going to happen. Simply ordering all females present at the RW to leave the hall the moment the bedding ritual began, return to their chambers and stay there, would have removed them without necessitating their knowledge. This is a patriarchal family whose primary patriarch has a fairly iron grip on his womenfolk (and evidently a great deal of the men).

Lastly, it would be sheer stupidity for Walder to have called together his entire family, from his eldest sons down to the girl who just became a woman the previous month, and inform them of his plot. If there is one adjective that applies least to the Late Lord Frey, it's trusting. How many of those adults had suffered cruelty and humiliation at his whim and would welcome the opportunity for revenge? How many might anticipate a great reward from Robb for foiling the RW? How many might do it simply because they felt it was the honorable thing to do?

If the answer to any of these is even "one," then it would be insanity for Walder to have shared a single word more than absolutely necessary with any individual actively involved, and those he would have chosen with care.

Keep in mind that it wasn't just revenge motivating the RW (although that likely would have been enough). In fact, the details of the plan probably didn't even originate with Walder himself. This was also Frey's way of coming out on the "winning" side - the Lannisters' - and to have it bungled because the wrong word was leaked to the wrong person could have seen the Freys wiped out, crushed between angry Lannisters and betrayed Starks.

:bowdown:

[Jon Fossoway]

Nuff said.

[ChillyPolly]

In the books there are 141 people named Frey, [...]

A disturbing thought. Why does GRRM need so many?

[Jon Fossoway]

A disturbing thought. Why does GRRM need so many?

To exercise his hobby of fictionally killing people, of course.

[JLE]

Ser Stevron Frey, by all accounts, was a pretty decent character. Even if he did suggest attempting the diplomatic route with the Lannisters at the meeting where Robb was crowned, he fought loyally alongside Robb, took a wound in Robb's service, and kept the rest of the Frey army loyal to Robb. It was reported that he was one of those most in favour of calling the Frey banners to the aid of the Riverlands even before Robb marched south, but was overruled by his father. Robb believes that he could have made peace with Stevron Frey over the issue of his marriage to Jeyne Westerling, had Stevron lived.

All of which makes Stevron's death mighty suspicious - since it is reported that the wound he took was not serious, and should not have killed him, but he was found dead in his tent the next morning. Too slowly for it to have been the injury itself that killed him, and too quickly for it to have been a septic infection from the wound.

So... Did he die of natural causes NOT related to his wound? Or was he poisoned, specifically because somebody (Tywin or Roose?) worked out that Stevron was the crucial linchpin in the alliance between the Starks and Freys, and was already plotting a Red Wedding *before* Robb married Jeyne Westerling, and knew Stevron would (1) never go along with it and (2) possibly even rebel against his father if he learned of it, and would have the clout among his family to be able to take control of it and have his father "put away as a madman" - whereas Robb's other sympathisers among the Freys were of either lesser consequence in the family (such as Olyvar) or lesser wit (such as Ser Perwyn, who could be sent somewhere else and the secrets kept from him, without him suspecting anything)?

The evidence of Roose Bolton himself making an alliance with the Freys (by marrying Fat Walda), deliberately getting rid of Stark loyalists in the forces under his control (even as early as the Green Fork battle, it's noticeable that no Boltons are among the prisoners): blackening Robb Stark's name in the Riverlands by the behaviour of his own forces, under the Stark Direwolf banner, in the Riverlands: "hunting wolves" from Harrenhall, and sending Robett Glover's army off into the trap at Duskendale... a trap which, given the limits of speed of communication, must have been arranged in advance, BEFORE the news of Robb's wedding came back from the Westerlands... all of that seems pretty conclusive to me. Roose Bolton was already plotting with Tywin, and I suspect that he had an agent in Robb's army who poisoned Stevron Frey under cover of treating him for his injury. If Robb had not married Jeyne Westerling, the Red Wedding would still have happened - except the planned wedding would have been Robb to Roslin, and Roslin would have been widowed on her wedding night: and thus, Stevron had to die, simply because he was the one member of the Frey family who was most in position to prevent the whole thing, since it could not happen without his knowledge, and he would not have allowed it to happen with his knowledge. All this was in place long before anybody predicted that Robb would not honour his marriage contract.

[Lion of the West]

There is absolutely nothing to show that "every" adult Frey was involved.

First you must define involved... does involved mean having knowledge of it but just being a spectator? Actually participation/ harming someone? Knowing, but absenting oneself from the Twins because you object? Objecting but keeping silent out of fear that you will be killed as well?

Secondly, there is no textual proof that every adult Frey knew (especially keeping in mind that one was considered an adult in the mid-teens). Unfortunately it's been some time since my last reread but I seem to recall actual text that stated there were many Freys who had either no clue or only minor/varying degrees of knowledge.

Thirdly, "every" adult would include the women, almost none of whom had any reason to be informed what was going to happen. Simply ordering all females present at the RW to leave the hall the moment the bedding ritual began, return to their chambers and stay there, would have removed them without necessitating their knowledge. This is a patriarchal family whose primary patriarch has a fairly iron grip on his womenfolk (and evidently a great deal of the men).

Lastly, it would be sheer stupidity for Walder to have called together his entire family, from his eldest sons down to the girl who just became a woman the previous month, and inform them of his plot. If there is one adjective that applies least to the Late Lord Frey, it's trusting. How many of those adults had suffered cruelty and humiliation at his whim and would welcome the opportunity for revenge? How many might anticipate a great reward from Robb for foiling the RW? How many might do it simply because they felt it was the honorable thing to do?

If the answer to any of these is even "one," then it would be insanity for Walder to have shared a single word more than absolutely necessary with any individual actively involved, and those he would have chosen with care.

Keep in mind that it wasn't just revenge motivating the RW (although that likely would have been enough). In fact, the details of the plan probably didn't even originate with Walder himself. This was also Frey's way of coming out on the "winning" side - the Lannisters' - and to have it bungled because the wrong word was leaked to the wrong person could have seen the Freys wiped out, crushed between angry Lannisters and betrayed Starks.

Excellent post.

[Chancho]

He's a brute. That counts as dickish to me. Plus attacking Manderly is not smart at all.

Manderly cheered his kin death... A Song of Ice and fire characters are like 90% assholes, Freys are no diferent.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Tents aren't rooves. You're stretching. Was it treacherous? Yes. Was it a breech of guest rights? Not necessarily.

They were eating their own food most likely.They Freys expressly denied them food.

I think you are taking it too literal. The extension of guests rights is basically a true, and under a truce all men are to be protected. As I have already pointed out, it would be silly to guarantee a few men's lives with the caveat that some men may die. Nobody would agree to it. RObb and his officers went under the assumption that the meeting would be safe for all, not just him.

[ChillyPolly]

To exercise his hobby of fictionally killing people, of course.

Of course. That's why it's so disturbing. It's just going to keep going, only worse, with the victims getting gradually more sympathetic and innocent, as a further exploration of the downsides of the path of vengeance.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Yeah true, but Walder Frey i can't choose approach and pretending fighting at the end in this case work out for him... So being neutral is option if you play it right and jump on some ship by the end i guess.

Well the story has not finished, and atm his ploy is failing at the hands of an undead creature walking westeros. By the end of the story, House Frey will most likely fall, if just the individuals directly involved, which mean Walder.

These things take time, and in the end Walder's plan will backfire. As much as I dislike Dany, I doubt she is going to respect or trust someone like Frey. If she marches north, and Jon south, Frey is essentially f'ed for his poor decisions. That's if he makes it to that point and Cat hasn't dismantled the entire Frey House on her own.

[MistressofWhisperers]

1) I didn't say you were. And I'm not saying that about the people who consider the RW wrong.

2) So you're saying Robb and his men were war criminals?

1.) Sorry, the way you worded it back there made it seem like that's what you were implying. I misunderstood.

2.) For their crimes against the Westerland civilian supporters, yes. Atrocities were committed on both sides. Just because I think the RW is wrong doesn't mean I think murder of civilians is okay.

As much as I dislike Dany, I doubt she is going to respect or trust someone like Frey. If she marches north, and Jon south, Frey is essentially f'ed for his poor decisions. That's if he makes it to that point and Cat hasn't dismantled the entire Frey House on her own.

I also don't see Stannis suffering the Freys to keep the Twins if he ever got the IT. He has the sternest standards, no way he looks over breach of GR, imo. Jon def wouldn't leave the Freys untouched. I agree Dany wouldn't be sympathetic to them, esp with Tyrion advising her.

[JonisHenryTudor]

We just aren't going to agree on this. You can add the 3,000 if you want, but it is very debatable. Presumably in the scenario you're presenting the guest is living in their home and eating their food. What the Freys did to Robbs soldiers was treacherous, but it wasn't necessaril a breech of guest rights.

I will put together a bibliography of scholarship on medieval European laws of warfare. Considering this book is highly reflective of Medieval social, cultural, and political norms, it is worth considering. Martin wanted to maintain a sense of realism in his works, and that includes Medieval Customs regarding military and political truces. Frey broke a medieval custom.

When armies called for a truce, it was virtually impossible to house the opposition's entire army within the castle, not to mention immensely dangerous. Riots, looting, and violence could easily erupt from a drunken provocation. No medieval lord would think to commit such an act, unless of course they were mad.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1.) Sorry, the way you worded it back there made it seem like that's what you were implying. I misunderstood.

2.) For their crimes against the Westerland civilian supporters, yes. Atrocities were committed on both sides. Just because I think the RW is wrong doesn't mean I think murder of civilians is okay.

I also don't see Stannis suffering the Freys to keep the Twins if he ever got the IT. He has the sternest standards, no way he looks over breach of GR, imo. Jon def wouldn't leave the Freys untouched. I agree Dany wouldn't be sympathetic to them, esp with Tyrion advising her.

Depending on the relationship between jon and Stannis, I can also see Stannis using that as a reason to crush Walder. As someone mention (perhaps you) this is the nature of feudalism. Stannis would bolster his alliance with Jon by seeking retribution for the Starks which would bolster his support in the north as well. Frey made a terrible mistake and placed far too much trust in Tywin and Bolton to protect him.

[Rob Snow]

He's a brute. That counts as dickish to me. Plus attacking Manderly is not smart at all.

I thought of Hosteen too when I first say the OP. But I reread some of the DoD chapters and he is basically Victarion Frey. Thick as a castle wall, and bloodthirsty to boot. He is about as honorable as the Freys get, but that's not saying a whole lot.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Richard Frey .

[Lee-Sensei]

I will put together a bibliography of scholarship on medieval European laws of warfare. Considering this book is highly reflective of Medieval social, cultural, and political norms, it is worth considering. Martin wanted to maintain a sense of realism in his works, and that includes Medieval Customs regarding military and political truces. Frey broke a medieval custom.

When armies called for a truce, it was virtually impossible to house the opposition's entire army within the castle, not to mention immensely dangerous. Riots, looting, and violence could easily erupt from a drunken provocation. No medieval lord would think to commit such an act, unless of course they were mad.

That's not the point. The guests were the ones invited to the Wedding. the rest is debatable, but I don't think we're going to agree on this.

[Nittanian]

All of which makes Stevron's death mighty suspicious - since it is reported that the wound he took was not serious, and should not have killed him, but he was found dead in his tent the next morning. Too slowly for it to have been the injury itself that killed him, and too quickly for it to have been a septic infection from the wound.

So... Did he die of natural causes NOT related to his wound?

Interesting ideas. I've leaned toward blaming Black Walder, who wants to improve his placement in the line of succession.