Germanwings Flight 4U9525 - suspected murder-suicide

[Arakan]

As some of you may know, on tuesday the Germanwings flight 4U9525 crashed in the French Alps, killing 150 people.

And the absolute unbelievable is becoming more and more real: the suspection is getting stronger that the co-pilot committed suicide by deliberately crashing the plane while the pilot had left the cockpit.

I have to say that this is shocking me to an extent I cannot describe.

And if this suspicion becomes fact, I hope that this bastard of a human being rots in hell.

If a person wants to kill him/herself, fine with me, but to take others with you is the lowest of the lowest. There is nothing lower than murder suicide in my eyes. Human scum. Unfortunately it happens quite a lot, especially in car traffic.

Of course, if this suspicion becomes fact, Lufthansa is finished.

[The guy from the Vale]

While I agree with most of what you said, why is a pilot suiciding more damning for Lufthansa than a technical failure or anything of that sort?

There have been cases of this in the past. MH370 was suspected to be one of them, but alas, we still have no trace of the aircraft. If anything, I blame our collective post-9/11 paranoia. Making it impossible for a pilot to return to the cockpit on the whim of their copilot seems insane.

[Ormond]

Of course, if this suspicion becomes fact, Lufthansa is finished.

Lufthansa is only "finished" if the copilot had given any reasonable indication of his intentions beforehand. Science has not yet developed any foolproof test to tell if someone is going to commit suicide, so blaming Lufthansa in such a case may be unwarranted.

[Fragile Bird]

I was just posting the same topic and double-checked before doing it and saw I was jut beaten to it. But I will post the bullet points from the French prosecutor's press conference.

The co-pilot of the Germanwings jet that crashed in the French Alps deliberately forced the plane into the descent that led to the disaster, the prosecutor said. He pressed a button that accelerated the Airbus A320’s descent when alone in the cockpit. “It was a voluntary action,” Robin said.

The co-pilot – named by the prosecutor as [deleted by me], 28, a German citizen – was alone because the pilot had gone to the toilet. When he returned, the co-pilot refused to open the door. “The intention was to destroy this plane,” he said.

[The co-pilot] was breathing normally at the point of impact, the prosecutor reveals. He said nothing during the final descent, which lasted about 10 minutes. “Absolute silence inside the cockpit. Nothing, no word during the last 10 minutes.”

There was no indication that [his] actions amounted to terrorism, Robin said. But he stopped short of declaring it suicide, saying only that was a “legitimate” question to ask.

Cries could be heard just before the impact, the prosecutor said. “The death would have been sudden, immediate.”

Air traffic controllers attempted to contact the plane in the last few minutes before the crash but received no reply from the cockpit.
Robin said he had briefed the families of the dead.

The pilot briefed the co-pilot about the descent into Dusseldorf, then left the cockpit to go to the bathroom. The co-pilot then locked the door and started the descent that ended in the crash.

And, chillingly, the voice recorder picked up the screams of the passengers in the last few minutes.

[Arkhangel]

This is a horrendous tragedy, and possibly a crime. Lufthansa will be fine, though.

[Arakan]

While I agree with most of what you said, why is a pilot suiciding more damning for Lufthansa than a technical failure or anything of that sort?

There have been cases of this in the past. MH370 was suspected to be one of them, but alas, we still have no trace of the aircraft. If anything, I blame our collective post-9/11 paranoia. Making it impossible for a pilot to return to the cockpit on the whim of their copilot seems insane.

I think there is a difference: technical failure is tragic but intrinsically we accept the risk, as long as it is reasonable. A pilot committing suicide by a crashing a plane? The fundamental trust-relationship between passenger and pilot gets damaged, like your partner cheating on you.

Mistakes might happen, but be it plane pilot, bus driver or locomotive driver: I always give them the benefit of the doubt that they will give their best.

I didnt say it's Lufthansa's fault but they will feel the consequences of this lost trust. That Germanwings is the discounter airline of Lufthansa doesnt help. Pressure on pilots by Management etc.

[Fez]

Few thoughts:

1) Usually in pilot murder-suicides like this, the pilot points the plane nose at the ground and goes down as quickly as possible. Here, it was a gradual descent over 10 minutes; that seems really odd.

2) I think locked cabin doors are the single best (and probably only necessary) security feature of the post 9/11 aviation world, but clearly further regulations are needed. I've heard it suggested to give a master key to each pilot, but the problem there is if they step outside the cockpit and are seized by hijackers. Maybe the best idea would be to require that there always be at least two people in the cabin at all times. So if a pilot needs to use the bathroom or whatever, they can only leave after a crew member with at least limited aviation knowledge has come in.

3) Unless Lufthansa has a hidden psych val that says this guy was a danger, they'll be fine. EgyptAir was fine after Flight 990, Japan Air was fine after Flight 350, etc. What happened is a rare, horrible event, but not unique at all sadly.

[Biglose]

@Fez

In the US there have to be at least 2 persons in the cockpit at all time. Thats a rather good regulation which is not enforced for german airlines. If one flight attendant would have been in the cockpit, it may have been prevented.

(And this is the reason there are regulation: Regulations are the result of learning of misstakes, so not everybody has to make the same misstake for themself.)

It may haven been a suicide or this guy may have just passed out and by accident hit the button or something like that.

[Jo498]

As far as I understand it seems close to impossible that the co-pilot hit a button by mistake or passed out. (And if this was the case the design for those locking buttons or levers is faulty.)

If it really was intentional the risk of such an occurence has to be balanced against the benefit of the sealed cockpit door to prevent hijackings.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Biglose,

Good point. They co-pilot could have had a stroke or a heart attack or something and just died. Then his body could have fallen and toggled the wrong switch. Are those doors too tough to break down in 10 minutes?

[DJDonegal]

Fez, it's policy of many airlines worldwide that there must always be at least two people in the cockpit at all times. Sadly this was not the case of Germanwings and Lufthansa.

I think it is now a matter of time before it becomes a worldwide requirement for that to be the case lest there be a repeat of this horrendous event.

ETA: Whether murder/suicide or a tragically sad timing (does that explain locked doors AND controlled descent?) a second presence in the cockpit could have averted this.

[The Mance]

Biglose,

Good point. They co-pilot could have had a stroke or a heart attack or something and just died. Then his body could have fallen and toggled the wrong switch. Are those doors too tough to break down in 10 minutes?

Sarcasm?

I don't know much about cockpit controls in commercial airliners, but I doubt there's one single "nosedive" button that could be accidentally pressed.

[Disturber of Peace]

The persecuter said that there was breathing heard in the cockpit while the co-pilot was the only one there and that there is suspition that the door was barricaded.

[Dr. Pepper]

Sarcasm?

I don't know much about cockpit controls in commercial airliners, but I doubt there's one single "nosedive" button that could be accidentally pressed.

And also, a stroke or heart attack likely would have altered the breathing of the co-pilot even slightly.

[Eyron]

From the press conference:

He acknowledges that, in response to terror threats, cockpit doors have been reinforced such that they cannot be opened even “by weapons”. The doors can only be opened by pilots using a code that all air crew know off by heart. But this can be over-ridden from the cockpit. So even if the pilot entered the code in the dorr from the outside, the co-pilot would have been able to press a button that deployed a five-minute over-ride.

The co-pilot had to override the pilot's entering code, so it seems really unlikely that this was an accident.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mance,

I thought the decent was controled that it wasn't a sudden nosedive?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Eyron,

From the press conference:

The co-pilot had to override the pilot's entering code, so it seems really unlikely that this was an accident.

Yeah, that does change the picture.

[Castel]

I think there is a difference: technical failure is tragic but intrinsically we accept the risk, as long as it is reasonable. A pilot committing suicide by a crashing a plane? The fundamental trust-relationship between passenger and pilot gets damaged, like your partner cheating on you.

Mistakes might happen, but be it plane pilot, bus driver or locomotive driver: I always give them the benefit of the doubt that they will give their best.

I didnt say it's Lufthansa's fault but they will feel the consequences of this lost trust. That Germanwings is the discounter airline of Lufthansa doesnt help. Pressure on pilots by Management etc.

I think you have it entirely backwards. Mechanical failures are more likely to be punished if they're the result of negligence on the part of the airline.

Proving that some airline was negligent in dealing with a suicidal pilot is much harder.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think you have it entirely backwards. Mechanical failures are more likely to be punished if they're the result of negligence on the part of the airline.

Proving that some airline was negligent in dealing with a suicidal pilot is much harder.

Agreed. Mechanical failure is mainly the fault of the airline, if their maintenance was bad or they bought a faulty plane and didn't realize. Our understanding of the human psyche is far less advanced than our understanding of physics, so it's also much harder to accurately assess the risk of suicide.

[Fragile Bird]

Mance,

I thought the decent was controled that it wasn't a sudden nosedive?

Who knows why a murderer-suicide took the slow route instead of the fast route. It does happen. It may have happened in the Malaysian Airlines case as well.

Sarcasm?

I don't know much about cockpit controls in commercial airliners, but I doubt there's one single "nosedive" button that could be accidentally pressed.

There does seem to have been a descent button, one that I assume was pre-programmed for the descent into Dusseldorf.

I think you will see a new FAA order, that a bathroom be added to cockpits, so pilots never have to leave the cockpit. It will likely mean two rows of seats have to be removed on one side. After 9/11 airlines had to re-inforce the cockpit doors, so that terrorists could not break in. An airline expert said you wouldn't be able to get in even if you attacked the door with a fire ax for an hour, and bullets won't penetrate the door.

The ability to lock out the world was added so that if the pilot or co-pilot stepped out and was seized, the door could be locked from the cockpit and nothing could be done from outside. There's a keypad entry system, but it can be, and was, locked as well.