If you were Walder Frey, what would you do?

[The non-bastard Bolton]

Now, I know that big majority of people think that Red Wedding was bad.

However, if we assume that Walder Frey did not proceed with the Red Wedding what course of action do you believe he should take?

In terms of timeline, imagine that you are Walder Frey when Robb offers the hand of Edmure to your house - you are aware of Robb's troubles in the North and the Karstark desertion. However, you also know that you would be marrying into the most powerful house in the Riverlands. Also, you are aware of Roose being willing to help you out to betray Robb (I am guessing by whatever means Walder, Roose and Tywin concocted the Red Wedding).

What would your next plan of action be?

(NOTE: This is not a thread discussing the Red Wedding itself so please avoid discussing it if you can).

Personally, if Red Wedding was not to happen, I think that Robb's cause was lost at this stage anyway and would only take his side officially. I would accept the marriage proposal and would let normal wedding take place. I would then ensure that Roslin is pregnant with Edmure's child - following that, I would send my army off to fight with Robb but would make a secret pact with Roose that we would betray Robb in the next battle - we would have to make sure that Robb dies and that Edmure dies as well, leaving Roslin a widow, but a widow with a Tully.

Assuming that everything goes according to plan (and the battle happens as I hope), I would then obtain the royal pardon from Tywin and use the child to stake a claim in Riverrun and, possibly, leadership of the riverlands (but that depends on what happens with Littlefinger).

Therefore, worst case scenario (except obviously the betrayal not working out) would be Walder being stuck with just Riverrun but with an added advantage of not violating guest rights.

What would others do? Would you take the honourable path and fight on Robb's side; would you openly fight against him; would you remain neutral? What other possibilities can you think of?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Much as it pains me to admit, I have to agree that Robb's cause was lost by the time he returned to the Riverlands. There are factors that could have changed that (most prominent in my mind would have been Lysa allowing his army to return north of the Neck via the Vale/White Harbor route), but they simply were not going to happen. Given another ten years or so to have matured, seasoned and gained authority before he was put to the test, Robb might very well have wound up ruling a significant chunk of Westeros. But he was not given that.

As to WF, basically the question is: what he would have done if he were a different sort of man - one whose views on his own "honor" didn't drive him off the deep end decades ago? If he were Ned's type, he would have flatly refused to have anything further to do with Robb and openly joined another side, likely the Lannisters. If he were Roose's type, he'd likely have done as you outlined - pretended to a reconciliation and then bailed when he could do it without becoming publicly synonymous with dishonor and could work it to his long-term advantage, not just a single night of psychotic glee.

Ultimately WF's biggest downfall is tunnel vision. He apparently can only see and work with whatever is under his nose; as well as having the misguided idea that simply because he has a large family, it can't be wiped out.

What *I* would have done is truly reconcile with Robb, rebuild and rework our plans to the best of our abilities, and hope for the best. But I am not exactly conqueror-of-seven-kingdoms material either.

[aryagonnakill#2]

If I'm not going to betray Robb with Red Wedding than I am going to do everything in my power to see that he wins. So instead of betraying Robb I would have Roose Bolton arrested and tell Robb everything. We happen to know that Robbs situation was not as bad as everyone thought it was at the time, so I would get lucky there. Think about it, Bolton gets arrested and Robb moves north. There was like 100 wounded Ironborn holding Moat Cailin, so even if Robb took 1k losses he is still taking the castle, and from there his victory in the north is very easy. Ramsay had 600 men, Asha a couple hundred, and Dagmer less than a hundred.

In the meantime Robb finds out Rickon and Bran are alive, Tywin is killed, Tyrion flees, and the Tyrells invade the Riverlands. Obviously this worries me, but I have almost 4k men and they are all in my strong ass castle at the very far north end of the Riverlands. We happen to know that shit spirals out of control for the Tyrells and Lannisters before they even get the Blackwoods to surrender, let alone get a large enough force to the Twins, where they would have to besiege me for like 2 years, and would have no provisions to do so. The Lannisters wouldn't even have had the strength to take Riverrun without the Freys.

All in all Robbs situation was not nearly as bad as it seemed and if I was Walder and did not go threw with the Red Wedding I think I would have been very happy with the result.

[Lion of the West]

I'd recall the Freys to the Twins, raise the royal Lion-and-Stag banner and basically tell Robb Stark to go and fuck himself while making myself ready for a siege. I won't get near the same reward, nor will I be without punishment after the Lannisters are victorious, but its certainly better than making yourself the scum of Westeros for the forseeable future.

[Lee-Sensei]

If I'm not going to betray Robb with Red Wedding than I am going to do everything in my power to see that he wins. So instead of betraying Robb I would have Roose Bolton arrested and tell Robb everything. We happen to know that Robbs situation was not as bad as everyone thought it was at the time, so I would get lucky there. Think about it, Bolton gets arrested and Robb moves north. There was like 100 wounded Ironborn holding Moat Cailin, so even if Robb took 1k losses he is still taking the castle, and from there his victory in the north is very easy. Ramsay had 600 men, Asha a couple hundred, and Dagmer less than a hundred.

In the meantime Robb finds out Rickon and Bran are alive, Tywin is killed, Tyrion flees, and the Tyrells invade the Riverlands. Obviously this worries me, but I have almost 4k men and they are all in my strong ass castle at the very far north end of the Riverlands. We happen to know that shit spirals out of control for the Tyrells and Lannisters before they even get the Blackwoods to surrender, let alone get a large enough force to the Twins, where they would have to besiege me for like 2 years, and would have no provisions to do so. The Lannisters wouldn't even have had the strength to take Riverrun without the Freys.

All in all Robbs situation was not nearly as bad as it seemed and if I was Walder and did not go threw with the Red Wedding I think I would have been very happy with the result.

Really? Not going through with the RW is one thing, but to take up arms for this kid that betrayed you and spat on your house?

[MistressofWhisperers]

Interesting thread.

I'd recall the Freys to the Twins, raise the royal Lion-and-Stag banner and basically tell Robb Stark to go and fuck himself while making myself ready for a siege. I won't get near the same reward, nor will I be without punishment after the Lannisters are victorious, but its certainly better than making yourself the scum of Westeros for the forseeable future.

This is probably the best option. I would also add that he could have committed troops to the Lannisters to help them put the rebellion to an end more speedily (kind of like his contribution to the Battle of the Trident, where he showed up when one side was winning).

[Trigger Warning]

Probably align with Tywin and take the field when the Tyrell/Lannister alliance advances on Robb.

Or pull a Stanley and turn up at the battlefield (well not Walder personally)without declaring my intentions and commit when I see an opening.

[Lord Godric]

Really? Not going through with the RW is one thing, but to take up arms for this kid that betrayed you and spat on your house?

You said it yourself, he's a kid. Walder Frey has some serious delusions of grandeur and took Robb's slight to be much more than it was. Sure, I do not see him raising arms for Robb after this but I don't think he needed to betray him let alone murder him.

[TheLightning Lord]

Robbs cause wasn't lost btw. he was just undone by some treacherous scum.

if the wedding had waited a couple of weeks, then joffrey and tywin are dead and their stark hostage is gone.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robbs cause wasn't lost btw. he was just undone by some treacherous scum.

if the wedding had waited a couple of weeks, then joffrey and tywin are dead and their stark hostage is gone.

If the Red Wedding does not take place Tywin returns to the field to finish off the Riverlords and Robb. Tywin lives.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Do exactly what he did.

The northern cause was finished, and I wouldn't want to go down with the Starks.

Id want to further my house and children and do what he did. I mean.. who can invade the twins and conquer them? I am safe and sound!

[Lord Godric]

Robbs cause wasn't lost btw. he was just undone by some treacherous scum.

if the wedding had waited a couple of weeks, then joffrey and tywin are dead and their stark hostage is gone.

It's really interesting to think what would have happened had Joffrey's wedding been first. Would the Boltons and Freys have felt so secure working with Tywin still?

[Trigger Warning]

It's really interesting to think what would have happened had Joffrey's wedding been first. Would the Boltons and Freys have felt so secure working with Tywin still?

Against the combined might of the Tyrells and the House Lannister I don't see them abandoning their intentions against Robb just because of the death of one king, especially when he has a brother as an heir. Roose also has the matter of Ramsay's work in the North that keeps him on the path of betrayal.

[Harry the Hair]

Probably poison Robb's current wife and then demand that he marry as originally planed.

[Lord Godric]

Against the combined might of the Tyrells and the House Lannister I don't see them abandoning their intentions against Robb just because of the death of one king, especially when he has a brother as an heir. Roose also has the matter of Ramsay's work in the North that keeps him on the path of betrayal.

You're right, I guess I should have been wondering if the Red Wedding was planned for after Tywin's death.

[kimim]

I'd be thankful he married someone other than my granddaughter, as that gets me out of a marriage with a lost cause, and Robb's cause is lost after Blackwater.

After that, I'd tell him very politely that HE broke the alliance, after all, and that I've come to my senses, bent the knee to my rightful king, and been forgiven. He may not pass.

[MistressofWhisperers]

Against the combined might of the Tyrells and the House Lannister I don't see them abandoning their intentions against Robb just because of the death of one king, especially when he has a brother as an heir. Roose also has the matter of Ramsay's work in the North that keeps him on the path of betrayal.

Yes, as long as Tywin was alive, it still would have been a good bet. However, add to that Tyrion's trial, conviction and subsequent murder of Tywin, the deal doesn't look as great.

[Trigger Warning]

Yes, as long as Tywin was alive, it still would have been a good bet. However, add to that Tyrion's trial, conviction and subsequent murder of Tywin, the deal doesn't look as great.

Though still better than throwing in with the Starks again, which I don't think Walder would even consider unless Robb was marching on King's Landing with the Lannisters and Tyrells broken and fleeing.

[Lee-Sensei]

You said it yourself, he's a kid. Walder Frey has some serious delusions of grandeur and took Robb's slight to be much more than it was. Sure, I do not see him raising arms for Robb after this but I don't think he needed to betray him let alone murder him.

"He is not reasonable," said Catelyn. "He is proud, and prickly to a fault. You know that. He wanted to be grandfather to a king. You will not appease him with the offer of two hoary old brigands and the second son of the fattest man in the Seven Kingdoms. Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure." She inclined her head toward her brother.

Oh no. He was right to take the insult hard. Robb betrayed Walder.

[Lion of the West]

You said it yourself, he's a kid. Walder Frey has some serious delusions of grandeur and took Robb's slight to be much more than it was. Sure, I do not see him raising arms for Robb after this but I don't think he needed to betray him let alone murder him.

I've got to disagree with this. In the WoIaF we see that Lord Baratheon renounce the Iron Throne and crowns himself as Storm King when a betrothal is broken by the king's son. These things are deadly serious insults. So I think that Walder Frey was in his right to renounce Robb as his king, but not to commit the Red Wedding (which nothing can justify).