If you were Walder Frey, what would you do?

[MistressofWhisperers]

Catelyn's taking Tyrion prisoner provoked Tywin to action, yes. She did not "start the whole thing" though. That would be LF and if you go back even further, Cersei & Jaime with their treasonous incestuous affair in the first place.

If I were Tywin, I'd have opened my eyes years ago and kept Jaime and Cersei apart, maybe donate Cersei to the Faith. :D Barring that, I. would put pressure on Robert even if I had to track him down in the kingswood. As was stated previously Robert has already sided with the Lannisters on this issue once before when he told Ned to tell Catelyn to give Tyrion back. No, Lysa couldn't kill Tyrion. He was Cat's hostage. It was Tyrion who demanded a trial by combat. If he hadn't asked for that, he would have just stayed in a skycell until further notice.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If I were Tywin, I'd have opened my eyes years ago and kept Jaime and Cersei apart, maybe donate Cersei to the Faith.

They were separated for most of their childhood, this was not a relationship that was happening infront of Tywins eyes. Jaime was at Crakehall when Cersei was with her father at the Rock and Kings Landing once Jaime was made a member of Kingsguard Tywin and his daughter moved back to the West. There was little interaction between the two.

If Robert didn't know that the two were together when he lived in the same building as them then how can you blame Tywin who lived a thousand miles away.

[MistressofWhisperers]

They were separated for most of their childhood, this was not a relationship that was happening infront of Tywins eyes. Jaime was at Crakehall when Cersei was with her father at the Rock and Kings Landing once Jaime was made a member of Kingsguard Tywin and his daughter moved back to the West. There was little interaction between the two.

If Robert didn't know that the two were together when he lived in the same building as them then how can you blame Tywin who lived a thousand miles away.

So that comment was actually mostly a joke, emphasized by the winky face, but I'll play: their mom caught them when they were as young as 7 so it was going on for a while. Tyrion knew as well. It seemed like all the immediate family members knew except Tywin who was either a really, really uninvolved father or the thought was just too terrible to contemplate that he turned a blind eye. Also, most of the small council members knew, granted this was when the relationship was advanced already, but yeah, it seems like anyone who paid attention could figure it out...

Edited: for coherence, it's getting late here

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So that comment was actually mostly a joke, emphasized by the winky face, but I'll play: their mom caught them when they were as young as 7 so it was going on for a while. Tyrion knew as well. It seemed like all the immediate family members knew except Tywin who was either a really, really uninvolved father or the thought was just too terrible to contemplate that he turned a blind eye. Also, most of the small council members knew, granted this was when the relationship was advanced already, but yeah, it seems like anyone who paid attention could figure it out...

Edited: for coherence, it's getting late here

Knew what was going on? They were children.

What father sees his two 7 year olds playing a little too closely and thinks they will spend the rest of their lives fucking each other?

They were separated from each other for most of their childhoods, what more would you have Tywin do. Castrate them?

[Neds Secret]

Knew what was going on? They were children.

What father sees his two 7 year olds playing a little too closely and thinks they will spend the rest of their lives fucking each other?

They were separated from each other for most of their childhoods, what more would you have Tywin do. Castrate them?

lobotomise cersei, again?

[The non-bastard Bolton]

Catelyn's taking Tyrion prisoner provoked Tywin to action, yes. She did not "start the whole thing" though. That would be LF and if you go back even further, Cersei & Jaime with their treasonous incestuous affair in the first place.

If I were Tywin, I'd have opened my eyes years ago and kept Jaime and Cersei apart, maybe donate Cersei to the Faith. :D Barring that, I. would put pressure on Robert even if I had to track him down in the kingswood. As was stated previously Robert has already sided with the Lannisters on this issue once before when he told Ned to tell Catelyn to give Tyrion back. No, Lysa couldn't kill Tyrion. He was Cat's hostage. It was Tyrion who demanded a trial by combat. If he hadn't asked for that, he would have just stayed in a skycell until further notice.

Well the whole thing was kept on the low until Catelyn blew it up.

Also, given Lysa's state of mind, I do not doubt that she would have killed Tyrion on a whim - Catelyn had no power in Vale; besides, Tyrion could have fallen from his cell.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And it makes no damned difference that Caitlin had captured Tyrion and put him on trial for the attacks on Bran. Legally, Caitlin was no longer a Tully, but a Stark. I think we can safely infer that from the Westerosi wedding ceremony, where the cloak of the parents' house is exchanged for that of the husband's house.

So if Sansa does something she will not be a Stark but a Lannister?

Also no I don't agree.

"They'll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here," the old man shot back. "Don't you try and frighten me, my lady. Your husband's in some traitor's cell under the Red Keep, your father's sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister's got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours? I'll match you son for son, and I'll still have eighteen when yours are all dead."

"You swore an oath to my father," Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. If I had the sense the gods gave a fish, I'd help the Lannisters boil you all."

When Robb asked for Walder's help Joff was the King and Ned was a traitor, Robb was a rebel thus a traitor and Edmure in chains.

[Trigger Warning]

It's worth mentioning that the Riverlords have already been smashed when Robb comes South.

Walder's basically throwing in against Tywin Lannister and the crown with a young and untested lord when the war has already been half won.

Walder's a traitorous weasel but the reality of feudalism isn't doing everything you can for your overlords regardless of the potential cost to your own house. It's a balancing act between each lord and their vassals/overlords. Asking for terms and marriages for committing to Robb isn't particularly scumbaggish for Walder.

[Kaibaman]

It's worth mentioning that the Riverlords have already been smashed when Robb comes South.

Walder's basically throwing in against Tywin Lannister and the crown with a young and untested lord when the war has already been half won.

Walder's a traitorous weasel but the reality of feudalism isn't doing everything you can for your overlords regardless of the potential cost to your own house. It's a balancing act between each lord and their vassals/overlords. Asking for terms and marriages for committing to Robb isn't particularly scumbaggish for Walder.

That's very true. And I for one don't see how Walder Frey can be considered a scumbag for making betrothal demands with his overlord when even Robb's own bannerman tried to marry him off to one of their daughters when they were mustering at Winterfell? Both Meage Mormont and lord Cerwyn tried to shunt their daughters and granddaughters at Robb. Not to mention Robb's own granddad also made similar bargains by betrothing Ned and Jon Arryn to his daughters in exchange for his help. Fact is this is how the feudal vassal system works. Overlords must trade favors with their vassals to get them to fight for them and sometimes that involves marriage arrangements.

[John Doe]

While all you're saying is true, was Tywin's killing of innocent people really needed. All he had to do was go to court, force Robert to make Ned release Tyrion and the problem would be solved. No lose of life needed and House Stark comes off looking like an ass for kidnapping Tyrion with no proof.

Was Robb dragging innocent people into war really needed? What a monster.

[MistressofWhisperers]

Knew what was going on? They were children.

What father sees his two 7 year olds playing a little too closely and thinks they will spend the rest of their lives fucking each other?

They were separated from each other for most of their childhoods, what more would you have Tywin do. Castrate them?

Their mom was concerned enough to threaten telling their dad (she should have, imo, if he had known, he would have separated them for the rest of their lives). Again, all the hints were there all along, or else if there was nothing to suspect, there would never have been rumors.

Well the whole thing was kept on the low until Catelyn blew it up.

Also, given Lysa's state of mind, I do not doubt that she would have killed Tyrion on a whim - Catelyn had no power in Vale; besides, Tyrion could have fallen from his cell.

It was going to blow up either way, wasn't it? Catelyn just happened to be the one to bring it to light, but no way war could have been avoided since the bastardy of the royal children was basically an open secret. Catelyn did have power over her own prisoner in the Vale, if you think Lysa would have just killed him anyway, why didn't she the first day he came? Lysa was also mad that Catelyn involved her by bringing Tyrion there in the first place, she didn't want to be the focus of Lannister anger, paranoid as she was. Yes, Tyrion could have fallen from his cell, I give you that, he could have also had a cerebral artery aneurysm blow.

Was Robb dragging innocent people into war really needed? What a monster.

At least Robb was the only ruler who stood up for the Riverlands whose civilians were being raped, burned, and tortured.

[Trigger Warning]

Then proceeds on a campaign of chevauchee in the West.

Where it specifically says that Karstark and Glover are raiding up the cost, in other words targeting civilians.

The only guy that gets credit in this department should be Edmure, Robb isn't fighting in the Riverlands to protect the civilians. He's there to help his allies, the nobility and the men they command to aid in the war against Tywin.

"stood up for the Riverlands" makes it sound like he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

You can do anything but just don,t violate guest's rights .Pull an Arnolf Karstark and turn cloak during the battle with the Royalist forces .

[MistressofWhisperers]

Then proceeds on a campaign of chevauchee in the West.

Where it specifically says that Karstark and Glover are raiding up the cost, in other words targeting civilians.

The only guy that gets credit in this department should be Edmure, Robb isn't fighting in the Riverlands to protect the civilians. He's there to help his allies, the nobility and the men they command to aid in the war against Tywin.

"stood up for the Riverlands" makes it sound like he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart.

Robb let the Riverlords take their forces back to their holdfasts after he liberated Riverrun to protect their smallfolk, against Cat's objections, breaking up his host. No, I don't think he helped the Riverlands out of the goodness of his heart, he did it to reinforce the old alliance and because of his family ties.

[Lord Lannister]

I think most can agree that the Northern cause was doomed to fail. Walder Frey would've been foolish not to consider switching sides. Like Tywin at King's Landing, he felt he had to demonstrate irrevocably that he had switched sides and pardon the pun, burned that bridge behind him. The Red Wedding was pretty much that, they've no choice but to be true to the Lannister regime in King's Landing now for no one else will even consider aligning with them.

That said, in the long run, Walder might have been better served committing a less extreme betrayal. Closing the Twins at an opportune time might work, but it might not be enough. I think he'd have to take the field with his Northern allies, then attack their flank or rear when the battle starts. Certainly they'll be reviled in the North, but not universally across the Seven Kingdoms as they are now. They may not reap all the rewards and influence they did, but they also won't have as big of a target on their back.

[sifth]

Was Robb dragging innocent people into war really needed? What a monster.

Pretty sure Robb didn't have people like The Moutain, Lorch and The Brave Companions going about killing people for shits and giggles. Roose would probably be the closet thing Robb had to one of those monsters.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Pretty sure Robb didn't have people like The Moutain, Lorch and The Brave Companions going about killing people for shits and giggles. Roose would probably be the closet thing Robb had to one of those monsters.

The North would have their equivalents. The Lorchs and Cleganes are just landed knights, Amory is not even the head of his House.

When we are told about the North it is through Cat who is only really speaking to the Lords(all who pretty much rank way over Amory) and none of the details of their chevauchée in the West.

We get to see how awful Lorch and Clegane are primarily through Arya in the Riverlands and the smallfolks accounts. We dont get the descriptions from the Westerland smallfolk of how 'they were paid back in kind'.

We know of Northern men raping and pillaging in the Riverlands, we dont get their names but they would be your Northern equivalents. And the North had no problem allowing the Brave Companions and other sellswords to switch sides and join them so the idea that the worst are all in Tywins army is a little flawed.

[sifth]

The North would have their equivalents. The Lorchs and Cleganes are just landed knights, Amory is not even the head of his House.

When we are told about the North it is through Cat who is only really speaking to the Lords(all who pretty much rank way over Amory) and none of the details of their chevauchée in the West.

We get to see how awful Lorch and Clegane are primarily through Arya in the Riverlands and the smallfolks accounts. We dont get the descriptions from the Westerland smallfolk of how 'they were paid back in kind'.

We know of Northern men raping and pillaging in the Riverlands, we dont get their names but they would be your Northern equivalents. And the North had no problem allowing the Brave Companions and other sellswords to switch sides and join them so the idea that the worst are all in Tywins army is a little flawed.

You honest think Robb had someone as bad as Gregor working for him? Like I said before Bolton is the only guy even close I can think of.

[EastTymor]

You honest think Robb had someone as bad as Gregor working for him? Like I said before Bolton is the only guy even close I can think of.

So, yes, Robb did have at least one person on his side close to as bad as Gregor.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You honest think Robb had someone as bad as Gregor working for him? Like I said before Bolton is the only guy even close I can think of.

What about the Northern soldiers who were captured after raping and pillaging at the Riverland(their own allies) town of Stoney Sept? Just because we dont know their names does not mean they dont exist.

All armies would have their Armory Lorch equivalents.